Paris burning

[Marla_Singer]

My father is in a tower block near the Champs-Elysées, and says he can see nothing out of the ordinary.

All is as normal as Paris usually is, he reports.

Methinks the media is blowing this out of proportion.

The districts where those events happen aren't nearby the Champs-Elysées. Maybe you were getting ironic.

 

[CurtSibling]

Shooting them is funnier. I volunteer, give me a gun and impunity, and I'll show you how to deal with the rioters

You have my vote!

Give me a Sturmgewehr 44 automatic rifle with ammo, and I would
show these insolent mayhem-making muslims the meaning of mayhem!

 

[CurtSibling]

The districts where those events happen aren't nearby the Champs-Elysées. Maybe you were getting ironic.

Myabe it is because my dad works in Paris and reports his life is unaffected by it.

No irony, just naked fact.

.

 

[Verbose]

Islam is only one of many factors ( though you have to admit , it's a thing around which rioters can rally ) . The culture these people brought with them was moulded by Islam ( but that is very , very tangential to the issue at hand ) .

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not really so "homegrown" as you think . These people have lived within a strong community , even if that community be located in France , and are thus as such not part of the mainstream of French life or the French way of living . They have formed a mini society of their own in their own quarters , and wherever these two societies overlap , these are riots today . Deny this if you can .

We agree on the mini-society (or counter society).

We disagree on the amount of influence Islam has on the dynamics of the situation. I just don't quite see the overlap and causality of it you claim.

But Islam is a possible rallying point, yes.
And it may be on its way of becoming a more important one for French suburbian counter society, since Islam obviously scares the bejeezus out of a lot of Westerners. (Again, I prefer interpret the situation more from what things look like right now, not how we assume they did in gran'dad's days.)

They feel screwed by society, because they are Arabs. So they are going to be Real Scary Arabs. Who's the scariest Arab around? A Muslim extremist.

So they'll tell you all about how the West has always given Muslims grief because it's racist/fascist/whatever, and what good little Muslims they are. But they've got about as much religion between them as can fill a small paper cup.

So far Islam's just part of the baggage of a lot of the rioters (A fact, not THE fact), and as far as I can tell not by far the most important aspect.
There's a heck of a lot of non-Muslims picked up by the police. And 50% are minors.

Had people in the suburbs been ardent Muslims chances are there would never have been a riot. A better breeding ground for Islamic terrorism maybe, but not for what's going on right now.

I'd rate 99% of the rioters as actually as secular as the next laïc Frenchman, whatever they might say about fighting for Islam.

They are young, stupid and wan't a wad of cash, a big gun, a nice car and a blonde French GF who shaves between her legs and agrees to letting him do her in triplex, after watching to much porn. (But IRL the only one they get to screw is some mentally handicapped woman in the vicinity.)

Really, that's what young, stupid men form the suburbs tend to dream about.

The really religious ones tend to be the women. And they aren't rioting. Actually it's suspiscioulsy silent about them, and their lives are even drearier than the young mens'.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Myabe it is because my dad works in Paris and reports his life is unaffected by it.

No irony, just naked fact.

Well, my university is in one of the districts of rioters. And actually, I've seen no violence, though I've been to my university only during daytime, and riots happen once the night has come. I've witnessed nothing from my own eyes. The only direct evidences I had things were happening is the abnormal number of police helicopters I've seen in the sky, firemen trucks and CRS brigades I've crossed in my car or I've heard in general around me.

But anyway, it's not because life is normal for most French people that it means nothing is happening. What makes those events serious is the fact they've spread to all the "cités" in France. A cité is a kind of district made of 4 or 5 buildings. Those buildings however have about 10 stories and are 1 km long. As such, there are 10,000 people living in those 4 buildings. That's this specific kind of urbanization, invented in the 50's to give quickly new residence to French people, which is burning every night in France.

It's been 3 years now that the government has launched a huge plan to get rid of those "cités". But the task is enormous. Those cités are specifically stupid since they've been thought as completely closed from the rest of the city. As such, many of them became zones with no rights, where criminals were free to do whatever they wanted.

It's also since 2002 that Nicolas Sarkozy, as Minister of the Interior, has decided to fight fiercely those zones with no rights... in order to restore order in those places. The same Sarkozy rioters want out of office. Clearly, criminals have all interests in letting things being as they were before, and what they riot against is mainly that politics from the government.

What to do you may ask ? Simply hold strong : Police must hold strong, government must hold strong, Nicolas Sarkozy must hold strong. The thing is that the government must prove that we cannot beat the law... something which isn't considered as obvious in those "cités". The problem isn't new, it's about 25 years of politics in France.

 

[SonicX]

The riots now have also reached Brussels, capital of Belgium, albeit on a small scale. In the last 2 nights a dozen cars were torched, a few stone throwing fights with the police and some molotov cocktails were used.

I wonder what they want here.
Our immigrants are treated very well (a bit too well according to a large part of the population, resulting in 27 % for the far right in last month's poll).
And I don't really believe those Belgian immigrants also want the resignation of minister Sarkozy

 

[Evil Tyrant]

You know, we may be looking at this the wrong way, isn't rioting in Paris a French tradition? This could be a sign that the immigrants are integrating nicely.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

And it may be on its way of becoming a more important one for French suburbian counter society, since Islam obviously scares the bejeezus out of a lot of Westerners.

Lets say for the sake of argument thats true. Why do you suppose Westerners are so scared of Islam?

 

[sonorakitch]

Indeed, what you're missing is the post you're answering to.

Cops are out every evening at 6pm. When rioters see that, they burn stuff in other districts of the city, where there are no cops waiting for them. As such, the streets affected are those where there are no cops. There are more than 10 million people in Paris urban area. It's impossible to put cops at every junctions of such a wide area.

By the way the large majority of troublemakers are actually more fire-raisers than rioters. They burn stuff and fastly flee before anyone come around. The nature of the riots have massively changed in 11 days.

Well, a nice bit for excuse anyways. Thousands of cars, nursery schools, and fleeing victims all doused with petrol. And the French government has let this continue for 12 days. Instead of excuses on how h a r d it is to combat, you should be angry at your government for inaction and ineptness.

~Chris

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Well, a nice bit for excuse anyways. Thousands of cars, nursery schools, and fleeing victims all doused with petrol. And the French government has let this continue for 12 days. Instead of excuses on how h a r d it is to combat, you should be angry at your government for inaction and ineptness.

~Chris

Dont go by just what our Paris Information Minister says Im sure your average French person isnt as laid back and uncritical of the way the government has been handling the unrest. How could they possibly be? It took Chirac 11 days to even speak about the unrest! After almost two weeks, they decided that maybe curfews would be a good idea! The simple fact is that the government handled this terribly, and continues to do so. To deny it is absurd.

 

[Jass]

I'm sorry to say, but some of you would better sit down and listen or read about it if it really interests you. Some crazy theories about how to handle this are worlds away from what is happening. To those who say they should shoot the rioters, why don't you go ask the cops in your own country to shoot at its citizens.

Thank you.

Now, here's the deal:

I'm french, I live in Toulouse right now. Normally, I live in Belgium (neighbour country of france, up north).

When I moved to france a couple of months ago, one of the first things I noticed was the police opression. In Belgium(where I live 99% of the time), policemen are more or less polite. Here in france, I noticed them right away. Opening peoples cardoors and shouting at people who had done nothing wrong. I talked about this to a 'real' french guy, and he said that's what people wanted. That's what people had voted for 3 years ago. Repression. The strong arm of the law if you will. This conversation happened two days before the riots started.

You must understand that the people who are rioting are 2nd and mostly 3rd generation immigrants, living in the banlieu's (also called "cité") of big cities. Banlieu's where built 30/40 years ago as welfare homes. Imagine big white concrete buildings, with a little bit of a green area in between, now filled with grafitti's, litter, cats, and youngsters who have nothing to do all day. They have lived there all their lives. They went to school nearby (in france, you can't choose wich school you go to, except if you go private and pay a lot of €€€) and were put all together in schools where most of them failed miserably or didn't go to after being expelled for the n-th time. Most of them never found a job. Some have older relatives living with them in the banlieue's, and these relatives don't have jobs either. In short, what I'm trying to say is that they don't have any kind of good perspective for the future. They have nothing to do all day, they have no work (just mentionning they live there on their resumé is enough to make sure of it), don't go to school, nothing. Some very rare exceptions do make it, and those more fortunate guys leave the banlieue as soon as they can. So a place like this is a concentrated area of very frustrated folks.

Now add the repressive governement. Policecars patrolling. Searching (harrassing?) random people just because they're outside. Everyday. They did that for years. I saw yesterday on german television, how they had taped policemen who where fysicaly harming two kids for no reason at all. One of the cops just smacked one of them in the head to make him shut up. It reminds me of south african apartheid sometimes. And the 'catchfrase' if you will of france is "liberté, egalité, fraternité", wich means liberty, equality and brotherhood. What a farce they made of it.

The bucket is full and the tap is still running.

After the so-called incident where the two kids were electrocuted, some of the inhabitants of such banlieue's just HAD to react. They started protesting in the streets. Police came in and there was a fight. Cars got burned, but it wasn't all that bad just yet. What made the riots really take off was Sarkozy, the minister of interior affairs, who commented on national television that the protesters were scum (he said 'racaille', wich puts emphazis on the uselesness of the persons being called it as well as saying they're worthless and evil). After that, he continued his speech by saying he'll clean out the banlieue's with a karsher. A karsher (Picture) is a high pressure water pump to clean really dirty things.

From there on the riots have spread across france, for the simple reason that a lot of people living in these banlieue's just had enough. Most aren't litterate enough to go into politics and change things, and those that are get out of there as soon as they can and try to forget about ever being there (exceptions aside, of course). A lot of the rioters are very young (13-16) and don't realize they aren't doing much good by doing al this. But they also just don't care. That's how bad it is. It just can't get worse for them anyway. That's how I see it at least.

Lastly, on the firms being trashed, like that mcDonalds or the renault garage (there were more), it seems most of them are old scores that needed to be settled, like the renault garage, who invested right next to a banlieue to gain benefit of the big-tax adventage this would bring, only not to hire one single person who lived right next to it in the 'ghetto'. Things like that. Of course there's also a lot of random violence.

But it's true that it's not as terrible as a lot of media make it out to be. Except for the people talking about it, and the subway being blocked because a burning car was driven into a station, it doesn't bother me that much in daily business.

If you want to try and understand the issues, try the movie "La Haine". It was shot about 10 years ago and predicted all of this (wich wasn't really hard to do).

And as a final point, around here in Toulouse, saying you 'understand the rioters motives' equals to saying 'I agree with the violence'.

The debate about the motives of the rioters has yet to really take off. All the high up politicians say they refuse debate as long as the violence goes on. There hasn't been a single speech from one of those politicians that has tryed to adress the underlying issues. They just keep hammering to stop the violence and to augment repression until it stops.

Now, the way I see it, is that they can't expect the rioters to stop like that. The only way it may work is if everyone gets bored with it. But that's quite a long shot, since it has been going on for almost two weeks now. For me, the people being racist or prejudiced about the people living there and who have excluded them from basics like respect, decent education and decent work are just as guilty of the same violence caused by the rioters today. They had a choice and they chose to exclude them. Today they collect what they have seeded.

The whole situation isn't exactly black and white, there are a lot of gray area's. Not every rioter is a person who'd commit murder. But like was stated earlier, it's just inevitable that some real criminals take the opportunity to spread mayhem. I think that, since the riots were inevitable, it can't be held against the rioters' cause. It's just part of it in a way that can't be undone. Social exclusion and poverty doesn't create the nicest demographics after all.

And for the record, I don't agree with all the violance at all. I just understand that it is inevitable. Rationality is a very old woman with an eye-patch and a wooden leg in this story, she lives somewhere in the banlieue all alone with her parrot and nobody cares for what she has to say.

 

[Little Raven]

Why is it that only these poeple need more Big Brother on the info superhighway ? How come everyone could get by nicely without this Big Brother before they came ?

What do you mean? The Information Superhighway as we know if right now is only a couple of years old. It's only very, very recently that cell phones began to integrate text messaging and email functionality, or that handheld gaming devices began to incorporate wireless technology. It's not like humanity has been living in peace with this stuff for decades until the bad, bad Muslims came around. This stuff is brand new.

And, lo and behold, the downtrodden of society are waking up to the potential empowerment that it offers. Surprise, surprise. You really think that the Black Panthers wouldn't have used it to similar effect? You think the IRA would have ignored it? Nonsense. There's nothing special about the current crop of unhappy citizens in France. They just happen to be in the right place at the right time to take advantage of all this cool new stuff.

And frankly, all this technology has some upsides. Look at how few people have been killed or injured despite two weeks of violence! Yeah, a lot of cars and crap have been burned, but you can always replace that stuff. Even as technology has given the rioters new ability to evade law enforcement, it has also allowed them to avoid a lot of the collateral damage that typically comes with a riot. I mean, if L.A. had gone on for two weeks, our death toll would likely have been nearing 4 figures!

Technology is changing the world. There's no getting around that. It gives smaller and smaller groups of individuals more and more power every day. In many ways, that's a good thing. But it is true that groups of individuals that feel that they aren't getting a fair shake in life can use that power in ways that make the establishment unhappy. There are two ways to combat that: Either attempt to limit the use of technology against the State via Big Brother, or do a better job convincing people that they have a fair shake. Take your pick.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Jass very informative post

Whatever happened to nonviolent resistance? You know, staging wacky stunts and protests to draw attention to your issues? The really sad part about the whole thing is that these people have legitimate grievances. Ive read alot in the last few days about how African Muslims are treated in France, and man it was a real eye opener, for me at least. Seriously, I had no idea France was such a racist country. But anyway, if these knuckleheads had used different methods of expressing their frustrations, Id be behind them 100%.

 

[Princeps]

Police is soft against the rioters. Why I think so? Simply because the riots are still there!

Or maybe on the contrary. Maybe the police was too eager, they should have waited for a moment.

It isn't only the rioters who are responsible. The French have to change too, this riot is a product of conservativism. For example, Chirac does absolutely nothing, adding some police is a perfect excuse to do nothing.

Something has to be done quickly. Every other day (night) of the violence makes it more probable, that it will erupt also in the other EU countries. France has the responsibility.

OK, now let's lighten it a bit

Century ago it was the Jews whoe were shown like this, it was the Jews who were blaimed of every thing. Now its the Muslims.

 

[Little Raven]

Whatever happened to nonviolent resistance? You know, staging wacky stunts and protests to draw attention to your issues?

Nonviolent resistance is not hardwired into the human genetic code. (probably because there are limited circumstances in which it is effective) It is very rarely seen, and it has only been seen in cases where there is a truly remarkable leader to (King, Ghandi) to promote it.

And for every King, there are a few hundred Malcoms.

 

[Verbose]

Lets say for the sake of argument thats true. Why do you suppose Westerners are so scared of Islam?

That's one serious question.

Part of it must be historical reasons - the "Olde Enemy" stirs.
Islam has a history of expansion and domination. Historically they are just about the only thing that has truly collectively scared Europeans. Well communisn did too, but unlike it, Islam is alive and kicking.
And it's a fact that the imposition on a society of Islam signals a radical break in it's historiography in a "bad" non-Muslim before and a "good" Muslim hereafter. That's what the right-wing populists conjure up; a future where Europe is Muslim and thus is no longer recognisable. But you have to be really paranoid to see that happening anytime soon.

Generally European style secular modernity, into which Americans also fall despite their higher instance of general godlieness , is hostile towards religion.
With Islam as an historical rival you can compound the hostility of a former rival creed (even if you don't believe yourself), with a general hostility towards religion. I'd say lots of people fear Islam because they see it as major threat to modernity.

Part of it, in Europe at least, is likely a bit of a bad conscience.
The Muslims might have a point when claiming to have been badly treated for quite some time - and few things are as provocative as being told you are or have been in the wrong. (The Israel-Palestine situation always works to give Europeans pangs of guilt. Americans tend to stone-wall these it seems.)

It's also frightening for Westerners that a place like Iran can just tell the West that they won't accept our brand of modernity and tell go lay an egg for all they care.
Don't underestimate what a shock the Iranian rev. was for Europe and the US in the early 80's.

In a sense affluent Westerners (the bourgeois middle class) have always been afraid of "the Great Unwashed", the common poor folk.
In this day and age that to a high degree means the immigrants, and in Europe they are often from the Mid-East and Muslim.
It's also interesting to observe a kind of US "proxy-fear" for the fate of the Europeans facing some assumed brown horde of Muslims clamoring at their gates.
It's here I'd say people often confuse what it is they fear. The strange others as Muslims or as a poor and potentially dangerous lower class?

But of course Islamist extremism is inherently extremely scary. The fact that it's a small minority among the Muslims isn't much of a consolation considering the amount of mayhem the hard cases may cause.
And their tactics, the suicide bombings in particular, are tailor-made to frighten secular Westerners since we are very I'll equipped to understand the rationality.
The "I die, you die"-trade-off just doesn't work for us. For us the "cost" is way too high in relation to what it "buys" you.

Still, I'm actually at a loss to understand exactly why Islam puts the fear in Westerners so magnificently.

Looking at the world I see very little in the form of Islam advancing it's positions towards the West. Quite the opposite. The latest spate of extremism is causing Islam all kinds of problems and harm. Much more so than it does to the West.

There's of course every reason to combat Islamist extremism and to try to safeguard yourself against possible terrorist attacks.
I just find the US foreign military response misguided, and the domestic response in parts to be overreaction (or reactions against the wrong things).

Europe has been more measured, but this is to a high degree because we can't afford the luxury of thinking that the Muslims live Somewhere Else. We HAVE to make a life together with them by now, like it or not. And we can't indulge in the pleasant fantasy that it will all go smoothely or that we will get our way in every way.

That's scary too:
We have assumed that Western modernity will always win hands down since we consider it so admirably reasonable. We can't even imagine anyone questioning it. And now it turns out we might actually have to argue for it with the Muslim faithfuls.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Nonviolent resistance is not hardwired into the human genetic code. (probably because there are limited circumstances in which it is effective) It is very rarely seen, and it has only been seen in cases where there is a truly remarkable leader to (King, Ghandi) to promote it.

And for every King, there are a few hundred Malcoms.

Its a shame, youd think having the example of others who successfully waged nonviolent campaigns would make it more common. Im certainly no Ghandi or King, but it just seems like the most logical approach.

 

[luiz]

Those buildings however have about 10 stories and are 1 km long. As such, there are 10,000 people living in those 4 buildings.

That's a monstruosity, and I may I say it was pretty stupid to build such things. They're an invitation to ghetto fomation.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Verbose, cant find a single thing to disagree with. I wasnt even expecting an answer, so you knocked my socks off

 

[betazed]

Its a shame, youd think having the example of others who successfully waged nonviolent campaigns would make it more common. Im certainly no Ghandi or King, but it just seems like the most logical approach.

While I am not one to condone violence I do not agree that Gandhian type of non-violent activism is of much use. At best it is of use in very special situations (none of which I see around me in teh world). If you read India's independence movement/history critically you would be hard pressed not to come to the conclusion that the Gandhian movement hurt India much more than it benefited it. Most contemporary Indians agree with this (although out of respect for someone who was once respected it is usually not brought up). In fact I would go as far as to say that had it not been for Gandhi India would have been independent much earlier than 1947 (and also India and Pakistan would have been one country). So it is not really a very logical approach. In fact if you are up against a callous opposition I wonder what Gandhian/MLK type non-violence would do. Your opponent would just ignore you (or worse exploit you against you as the British did to Gandhi).

It is a sad fact of the world, but sometimes violence is necessary to jolt people out of their stupor.

Think about it. All these questions about neglect of these North African muslims are being asked now. Why now? Why has it not been asked these 40 years? because some of them started burning cars! It is sad, but that is the way the cookie crumbles.