Paris burning

[Little Raven]

Interesting, betazed. My knowledge of Indian history is cursory at best, and Ghandi is treated with utmost respect in most American history books, though the breakup of India and Pakistan is increasingly being laid at his feet.

I agree that there are very few situations in which non-violence is an effective tactic. If we discount Ghandi, then only King comes to mind. (And I really honestly believe that King's approach was the right one for the time, but the scenario surrounding the Civil Rights movement in America was a fairly unique historical circumstance.) Most of the time, a broken system will be only too happy to beat down or take advantage of a non-violent resistance.

Which is probably why it's so rarely seen.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

While I am not one to condone violence I do not agree that Gandhian type of non-violent activism is of much use. At best it is of use in very special situations (none of which I see around me in teh world). If you read India's independence movement/history critically you would be hard pressed not to come to the conclusion that the Gandhian movement hurt India much more than it benefited it. Most contemporary Indians agree with this (although out of respect for someone who was once respected it is usually not brought up). In fact I would go as far as to say that had it not been for Gandhi India would have been independent much earlier than 1947 (and also India and Pakistan would have been one country). So it is not really a very logical approach. In fact if you are up against a callous opposition I wonder what Gandhian/MLK type non-violence would do. Your opponent would just ignore you (or worse exploit you against you as the British did to Gandhi).

It is a sad fact of the world, but sometimes violence is necessary to jolt people out of their stupor.

Think about it. All these questions about neglect of these North African muslims are being asked now. Why now? Why has it not been asked these 40 years? because some of them started burning cars! It is sad, but that is the way the cookie crumbles.

No doubt about it, violence makes the world go round. Nonviolence is only really effective in democracies. Yes its true, now we're all talking about how the North Africans have been treated in France, but the senseless violence committed by the rioters only serves to confirm all the negative stereotypes the French people had of them in the first place. As a result of this violence, the government will implement a few more useless welfare programs, but also, the immigrant community will be held in even lower regard and viewed with more suspicion than it was before. They havent improved their lot any, theyve only made it worse:shakehead

 

[Little Raven]

I think it's far too early to say what will happen in France as a result of this. It isn't even over yet.

 

[betazed]

@LR: he is still respected. But he is respected because, you know he was always respected. So it is primarily by default.

but the senseless violence committed by the rioters only serves to confirm all the negative stereotypes the French people had of them in the first place.

Which some might argue is far better than apathy. At least now the white christian french at least have some thoughts (even if they are stereotypes). Earlier to them these muslims were out of sight and out of mind. If you are asked to choose between apathy and stereotype can you unequivocally say which one is better? I am not sure I can.

They havent improved their lot any, theyve only made it worse

Which unfortunately is also true. They are truly children of a lesser God. They are f*cked either way. Damned if they did something, damned if they didn't.

 

[Marla_Singer]

That's a monstruosity, and I may I say it was pretty stupid to build such things. They're an invitation to ghetto fomation.

I totally agree with this.

Actually, the simple fact we had the idea to build those buildings prove how much everyone want to stay in his own side in France. We say outloud that it's great to give the opportunity to everyone to get a decent appartment, but we're as much satisfied that poverty remains far from the middle class housings.

There's no wonder that France has today ghetto which are worse than those in the United States. There's no wonder a lobby of criminals living thanks to illegal activity such as drug dealing have raised as the rulers of those ghetto. During 20 years (80's and 90's), the average French people didn't care since that poverty was far from his backyard. It's only because criminality has spread out of those neighbourhoods that the middle class French people started to both, and has elected Chirac for a 2nd term because he told he would get fight criminality.

The problem is the way cities are organized in France. The Paris urban area is made of more than one thousand different cities (1,178 to be accurate). Those are considered as cities, but would be in any other countries districts or neighbourhoods. Each city is fully independent, and people care only about their little town. In France, everyone wants to live in his own side, and don't care about their neighbours. Anyway, one of those "cities" could be a very wealthy neighbourhood, where there's no unemployment, and just beside that city, accross the street, you have another city which is overwhelmed with crime and unemployment. The people of the wealthy neighbourhood considers it's their problem, it's another city.

Anyway, many things have to change in France, and no one wants to change them. Politicians from the left wing accuse politicians of the right wing, and the same is done in the other side. As such, there's no solution, and there won't be any solution. I have lost all hopes toward that topic.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Dont go by just what our Paris Information Minister says Im sure your average French person isnt as laid back and uncritical of the way the government has been handling the unrest. How could they possibly be? It took Chirac 11 days to even speak about the unrest! After almost two weeks, they decided that maybe curfews would be a good idea! The simple fact is that the government handled this terribly, and continues to do so. To deny it is absurd.

You've understood nothing about what I've told you.

I can't even understand how you could still picture me as a blind patriot ignoring the problem. And when I think I used to believe you were smart... How stupid I was. :shakehead


Since the beginning you say that the problem is Police being too soft, then you applaud someone else saying the problem is Police being too strong. When I tell it, my advice is worthless because I'm a blind patriot ignoring the issue. When it's a newbie, it's an insightful point of view.

 

[Little Raven]

As such, there's no solution, and there won't be any solution. I have lost all hopes toward that topic.

There will be a solution of sorts, anyway. Perhaps not a good one, but equilibrium will be restored, one way or the other.

It's just likely to be messy and hard.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You've understood nothing about what I've told you.

I can't even understand how you could still picture me as a blind patriot ignoring the problem.

Oh youre a patriot alright, and patriotism has a way of clouding our vision a little. I know that from personal experience

And when I think I used to believe you were smart... How stupid I was. :shakehead

No, no, not stupid, just dazzled by my dancing and rakish goodlooks

Since the beginning you say that the problem is Police being too soft, then you applaud someone else saying the problem is Police being too strong.

I dont know what youre talking about. Show me where I applauded the Police being too strong.

When it's a newbie, it's an insightful point of view.

Im barely aware of who's a newbie and who isnt. I still dont know what youre talking about.

 

[Little Raven]

Oh for heaven's sake. Can't you two just get a room and let all the sexual tension out already? It'll be better for everyone in the long run.

Bozo, you bring the wine.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Oh for heaven's sake. Can't you two just get a room and let all the sexual tension out already? It'll be better for everyone in the long run.

Bozo, you bring the wine.

I think we're more like Ali/Foreman than Tracy/Hepburn

 

[Adebisi]

Being poor does not authorize you to destroy the property of others.

Altough, perhaps it is time for us to realise that a society with 10% unemploymentis not viable? Time to loosen up on our tight structures.

 

[Winner]

Or maybe on the contrary. Maybe the police was too eager, they should have waited for a moment.

They should have crushed it in the beginning.

It isn't only the rioters who are responsible. The French have to change too, this riot is a product of conservativism. For example, Chirac does absolutely nothing, adding some police is a perfect excuse to do nothing.

I'd say it's there because too much liberalism. And I say it as an liberal.

Century ago it was the Jews whoe were shown like this, it was the Jews who were blaimed of every thing. Now its the Muslims.

Yeah, right

Poor Muslims, they're victims of the evil racist French society

God, stop this. There are other minorities in Europe and almost all of them are better integrated than the Arab Muslims. That's because they're willing to do so.

The Europe isn't the Garden of Eden, where they can live comfortably without any effort. The Europe is an opportunity they should be grateful for. The so-hated dirty Eastern European jobtakers know that, they find some job (even very bad one nobody else want to do) and live there without being fed by the Westerners. Many other immigrants do the same, even some of the Muslims.

It's their fault they're unemployed. They can blame just themselves.

 

[kronic]

I don't think the conflict is solely about unemployment. The high unemployment and apparently high hurdles to get out of this social background are just symbolic for the feeling of social exclusion that may drive the youth.
The banlieus seem to be a pretty good example for the unwillingness of nations to accept foreigners.

That said, all this doesn't justify all the violence. But it makes no sense to ignore the reasons for the latest outbreaks.

 

[Urederra]

On what grounds french muslims are compared to to pre WWII german jew?

In the nazi Germany the nazis were the ones that broke jew's stores and houses. Jews were the victims, not the perpetrators. Nowadays in France, rioters, mostly muslims, are the ones that break french owned cars windows and torch them (the cars, not the french, at the moment)

 

[eyrei]

It is my understanding that it was common for police to harrass young men in the neighborhood where the initial incident occurred by asking to review their 'papers'. If you want to sow discontent against the government, one of the best ways is to have police harrass people from certain groups to show them that they really aren't part of the society because they cannot be trusted to get along without police supervision.

Is this policy common to all of the areas in Paris where there are large numbers of immigrants?

 

[Akka]

I totally agree with this.

Actually, the simple fact we had the idea to build those buildings prove how much everyone want to stay in his own side in France. We say outloud that it's great to give the opportunity to everyone to get a decent appartment, but we're as much satisfied that poverty remains far from the middle class housings.

It's true that psychologues have always said that such city layout was an absurdity. But I'd like to remind that, at the time it was being built (the 70'), it was supposed to be MODERN, MIDDLE TO HIGH-CLASS housing. Nothing to do with keeping poor people away, on the contrary -_-

Which some might argue is far better than apathy. At least now the white christian french at least have some thoughts (even if they are stereotypes). Earlier to them these muslims were out of sight and out of mind. If you are asked to choose between apathy and stereotype can you unequivocally say which one is better? I am not sure I can.

?
This whole paragraph doesn't make sense. Everybody know where immigrants lives, and that it's usually poor suburbs, but I fail to see what apathy has to do with the whole thing.

Which unfortunately is also true. They are truly children of a lesser God. They are f*cked either way. Damned if they did something, damned if they didn't.

?
I also fail to see what meaning this is supposed to have.

 

[Little Raven]

This whole paragraph doesn't make sense. Everybody know where immigrants lives, and that it's usually poor suburbs, but I fail to see what apathy has to do with the whole thing.

Everyone knows where they are, everyone one knows that they're poor, and it's obvious that the situation is not improving from one generation to the next. And yet, for 20 years, this has continued. Obviously, French concern for them floweth over.

I also fail to see what meaning this is supposed to have.

It means that if they stay quiet, they are ignored and left to rot in their ghettos, and if they act up they are vilified. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

[Akka]

Everyone knows where they are, everyone one knows that they're poor, and it's obvious that the situation is not improving from one generation to the next. And yet, for 20 years, this has continued. Obviously, French concern for them floweth over.

It means that if they stay quiet, they are ignored and left to rot in their ghettos, and if they act up they are vilified. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I don't buy the "they are abandonner" scenario.
What I do believe, is that the rampant unemployment strike immigrants harder (because of lower education, harder social background and some drop of "racism", but honestly I think this last problem is WAY overrated). As such, the "ascenseur social" (social lifter, the ability to raise from a crappy situation to a better one) is weak, because of few opportunities.
I also do believe that the city layout talked about previously has devastating psychological effect, and that after seeing half of the neighbourhood unable to find work, or only crappy work and then unable to climb the social ladder, they simply have lost all hope, and even dreams, about "possibilities". They just have known unemployment in their friends and families all their life, and as such disconnect themselves from the rest of the country because of that.

Drop in some ethnic and cultural problems, which give them a pretext to feel part of a "tribe" and a flag to rally over and hate their new country which they see lacking any opportunity, and you got an explosive situation.

But much less to do with real social injustice (come on, France is one of the best place to be poor in the world, honestly, there are enough Americans constantly mocking our social welfare to show that), than with unemployment and lack of hope and possibilities.
Worrying more about them won't do them any more good. On the contrary, it will reinforce the prejudice against arabic youth, and close even more doors when they'll look for work.

 

[Little Raven]

Worrying more about them won't do them any more good. On the contrary, it will reinforce the prejudice against arabic youth, and close even more doors when they'll look for work.

Possibly. But not worrying about them at all will land you exactly where you are. And I think everyone agrees that where you are is not an acceptable place to be.

There's no doubt the details of managing society are hard. Very hard. And through prolonged neglect, France has (inadvertently, I think) created a hell of a mess. Cleanup will be difficult and, I expect, very expensive. I'm looking at this situation from 10000 miles away, so obviously I don't know the nuances of culture, economics, law enforcement, and social planning that have gone into making this ugly stew, but I'm willing to bet that all of them play a part. And to really repair the damage, all of them will have adjusted. Trust me, this will be difficult. We've been trying to do something similar in this country (with limited success) for the last 50 years. It's been slow going.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I've seen two things on TV tonight.

The first thing was a 5 minutes interview from Thuram at the TV News on TF1. He has said everything, and insisted in the fact there will never be any socialization in those specified districts as long as there won't be any job. He also said that he was sad because those youngsters burning cars to protest against Sarkozy weren't realizing these violence will return against them, and that they'll pay later the high price for these events.

Afterwards, I've listened several experts in a show of 2 hours dedicated to those events on France 3. They've said an insane amount of crap. All the clichés about the left had been said. Actually, they weren't even realizing how racist were their words : "They don't have any other mean to express themselves, we must listen their message and remove Sarkozy from his office, cops should get out of those neighbourhoods, etc..."

To sum it up. It's fine to have cops in white neighbourhoods to defend ourselves, but when you're black you don't have the right to be protected, because you're too stupid to express yourself in an other way then being violent. This is deeply racist. Actually, those leftist don't even realize they hold a position which is similar to the one which was held during the Apartheid in South Africa.

In another thread, people were saying that law was necessary to capitalism as it was the only way to protect private property. In France, today, leftists consider that respecting the law is not mandatory, that breaking the law is understandable if the purpose is to express yourself. The worst of all is Noël Mamère, that guy illegally destroys fields of genetically modified food to "express himself", and this despite being elected as mayor of the city of Bègles. In that city of Bègles, he has married two homosexuals, despite the French law saying it's illegal. That was also to "express himself".

Being against GM food, supporting gay marriage or understanding that it's the mess in the cités don't really matter. The thing is that every citizens have to respect the law. If we consider that law isn't that important, as it's obviously today the case in France, we bomb the society from the inside. We destroy everything.

As long as there will be people as irresponsible in the French left wing, I'll continue to vote for the right wing, even if that means voting for Sarkozy.