Paris burning

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

There are so many municipalities because France is an over-centralized country. That goes together. When you want all power to be in the hand of the capital city, you don't create large and powerful administrative divisions, but rather multiple smaller ones. As such, France has been divided in 100 departments and 36,000 municipalities. The 22 regions are rather new (the 70's). Actually, there weren't any mayor for Paris untill the 70's too... before that, there was only the 20 mayors of arrondissement.

It's the divide to better rule principle.

So then i figure ,while there are many levels ,that most levels have fairly few power an that in the end the higher echelons have most power? (would seem logical ,atleast i know in france the president is very powerfull ,more powerfull than presidents in many other country's)

Belgium is so decentralized because the city's have lots of decission power on their level ,usually this is what decentralization is all about.I guess in France the city's have mugh less power than in Belgium.

Anyway ,back to topic.It seems the riot's are decreasing ,a bit that is ,curfew's seem to have positive effect in some places but mostly in smaller community's ,i figure that in Paris thousands of rioters are active and that a curfew would be far less effective there.

In other news ,it seems the rioting is spreading more and more into Belgium and Germany now.Small incidints in a dozen of city's here last night ,though minimal and by select individuals. ,same goes for germany.Lets hope it stays minimal and doesn't expand further ,but if the riots in France are going to last long then the danger will increase.

I heard on the Belgium tv that Sarkozy has decided to deport about a 100 people ,many of them even born in France.Thats a radical step suddetly ,and i doubt that it will be welcomed in the cité community's ,even the non-rioters probably are not going to like that.What do Frenchmen in general think about such deportations ,isn't it a bit ... extreme?

Est-ce que tu es libertaire ? (I don't know how to say "libertaire" in English).

You mean the political side called "liberals"?

Pas sure que ca c'est le mot tu cherche ,libre est "freedom" ,mais je pensque tu sais ça ,mon Français n'est pas parfait n'aussi.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Two things are dead wrong : blind optimism and constant pessimism. But at least optimists are happy.

My point is simply that France needs major changes and that French people will never let those changes happen.

However, that doesn't mean that on your individual level things won't change for the best. My point isn't properly pessimistic, to say it in a different way which may sound to you more optimistic, I don't believe politics can change anything in this country. However, the economy can change things. If one day or another, for a reason or for another one, economy would get better in France, then that would be great !

The problem is that I'm born in 1981 in a France with 2 million unemployed people and I'm now in 2005 in a France with 2 million unemployed people. Hence it's getting hard for me to believe that all of a sudden, for no real reason, unemployment would magically disappear of this country.

 

[Masquerouge]

The problem is that I'm born in 1981 in a France with 2 million unemployed people and I'm now in 2005 in a France with 2 million unemployed people. Hence it's getting hard for me to believe that all of a sudden, for no real reason, unemployment would magically disappear of this country.

So basically, things have not gotten any worse in 20 years ?

And if having 2 millions unemployed people is that bad, then 20 years should have been more than enough for France to sink to the bottom of the developped countries. It has not.

The thing is I kinda agree that the French system can be too much protective for unemployed people. But on the other hand, what do we want our society to be ? It is a real question. I'm more than happy to give up a bit of economical power on the world stage to have a strong safety net at home. Thing is, when the safety net is not working or being abused, then... how do you change mentalities ?

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

My point is simply that France needs major changes and that French people will never let those changes happen.

However, that doesn't mean that on your individual level things won't change for the best. My point isn't properly pessimistic, to say it in a different way which may sound to you more optimistic, I don't believe politics can change anything in this country. However, the economy can change things. If one day or another, for a reason or for another one, economy would get better in France, then that would be great !

The problem is that I'm born in 1981 in a France with 2 million unemployed people and I'm now in 2005 in a France with 2 million unemployed people. Hence it's getting hard for me to believe that all of a sudden, for no real reason, unemployment would magically disappear of this country.

Quite right ,the film "La Haine" was rewarded in Cannes in 1995 ,that was already 10 years ago ,back then these problems were already pressing to and the movie showed that ll to well ,but nothing changed since.In addition there seems to have been a sort of taboo on pressing that issue in france.Heck in 1995 there were a few quite insultuous remarks from policemen towards the director of "La Haine" in the media.

That is ,it seems the media in france is very sellective.Some months ago there was a rather scandalous incident in france in one of these Cité's when policemen had raped a women ,atleast i heard that from non-trustworthy source's (frenchy's ,if you heard about that then accumulate on it plz) ,in any case as i heard the scandal received very few media attention.

But in the end i think it's because French politicians understand all to well how hopeless it is ,hughe amounts of cubic meters of slums and millions of unemployed ,you don't change that in a few years...

 

[kryszcztov]

So your point is that as you seem to agree law is impossible to change, your position is to make law irrelevant in order to get rid of the issue ? Interesting point of view.

No I didn't say that. I didn't say it was impossible to change, but hard to change. Furthermore I am nothing in this democracy, so I can't change the law myself as easily as elected people. That was the point. Law isn't irrelevant.

Est-ce que tu es libertaire ? (I don't know how to say "libertaire" in English).

I don't know what "libertaire" means in French either. I don't understand this real need to label people on the fly. Maybe I'll share some ideas with that current, but be sure I'll find plenty of stuff with which I'll disagree as well.

I'm in the same position as you are. I also hope to get a job soon.

OK, so let's quickly find a job both of us, so that you stop getting angry at night !!

 

[Akka]

Seriously, France is a country which is viscerally blocked. Any attempt to improve the competitiveness of the country in order to bring back jobs in this place are condemned as being "les libéraux" (the evil corporatism) taking over the country. How could anything change ? The country is falling continuously and as long as the selfish interest of few powerful lobbies is guaranteed, people are satisfied. People are against any change !

You should give the anti-left crusade a rest, you know.
And actually, it's the powerful lobbies that attempt to liberalize the market, not really to block it...

I don't see any way out. During years I've told myself that one day or another things will change and the economy will get back on track. But that can't happen magically. You have to make it so that it become possible. And that's utterly impossible since the country is blocked at all level of the society. You want to change the smallest tiny thing and it's considered as the apocalypse coming.

Instead of convincing ourselves that everything is fine, we should accept we're going straight to the wall.

Don't forget the nuclear apocalypse, the picture you're painting is far too rosy I think

 

[Akka]

I heard on the Belgium tv that Sarkozy has decided to deport about a 100 people ,many of them even born in France.Thats a radical step suddetly ,and i doubt that it will be welcomed in the cité community's ,even the non-rioters probably are not going to like that.What do Frenchmen in general think about such deportations ,isn't it a bit ... extreme?

To be frank, I think that it's what a lot of people would like in their deep self, without daring to say it loudly by fear of being labeled as a "racist".

You mean the political side called "liberals"?

That's it. In the European meaning, not the US one, so it means the right-wing economic liberals, not the left-wing social ones.

 

[Little Raven]

I heard on the Belgium tv that Sarkozy has decided to deport about a 100 people ,many of them even born in France.Thats a radical step suddetly ,and i doubt that it will be welcomed in the cité community's ,even the non-rioters probably are not going to like that.What do Frenchmen in general think about such deportations ,isn't it a bit ... extreme?

I don't think you can deport someone who is a citizen. (Which, I assume, someone born in France is.) I guess you could exile them, though.

 

[kronic]

In other news ,it seems the rioting is spreading more and more into Belgium and Germany now.Small incidints in a dozen of city's here last night ,though minimal and by select individuals. ,same goes for germany.Lets hope it stays minimal and doesn't expand further ,but if the riots in France are going to last long then the danger will increase.

There were some small incidents some days ago in certain German cities (Berlin, Bremen, Chemnitz, ...) but I haven't read anything lately. I don't think it will spread much...

Statements that I've just post above. Obviously you've understood from my post that law shouldn't be discussed (which is absurd and fascistic), when my point was that breaking the law (specifically in burning cars and buildings) shouldn't be considered as a normal mean to express yourself.

My question is : should we or shouldn't we prosecute the people burning vehicles and buildings ?

Of course, you should. I call for moderation though and not excessive measures. These might suppress the riots but increase the social tensions (just like stupid speeches...).
I just opposed your view that the law always has to be followed. That doesn't mean I support these riots or regard them as harmless crimes.

You think it´s OK to burn crops of GM food?
I don´t care if freaks like this Mamere fellow get married to his gay dog, but if I had farm with GM food and he attempted to burn it, I´d shoot him aiming for the head.

Aiming for death?
I oppose GM food and as the very existence of GM farms already makes it nearly impossible to get non-GM food (because of the pollen being carried to non-GM farms) I'd say so much for the choice. And that's a good reason for me to support the anti-GM crowd. I want to have a choice. But since there's no co-existence I've to take a side...
Anyway, obviously everyone has to take the responsibility for what he/she does. And if you break the law you'll have to face the consequences. I don't contest that.

That's why it's a bit one-sided of Marla to blame everything on the French lefties. Obviously the right doesn't care either. Otherwise they would have done anything against these law breakers.

 

[TheDuckOfFlanders]

To be frank, I think that it's what a lot of people would like in their deep self, without daring to say it loudly by fear of being labeled as a

You have always people who want that regardless of the situation ,i guess in Belgium about 10 to 20% of the people would like the immigrants deported regardless of the current situation.Some of them are plain racist ,but you don't have to be racist to take such a stance ,you could as well be a "neo-nationalist" (euh invented that term myself from the bat) ,meaning that you can believe in the old ideal of "1 country ,1 people" ,wich was a prominent ideal in the 19th century. (the age of nationalism)

That said ,it's always a minority who thinks that way ,never a majority ,though it's a vocal minority.

However it's no real option neither.Many country's in europe have poppulation decline ,and have the problem of an aging society.Belgium for ex. has now 10 million people ,withought immigration that total count is expected to fall back to 6-7 million in about 20 years.But in any case we need cheap immigrant labour in thee near future to fill the gaps of the aging baby boom generation that will then be mostly non-active and very costly in maintaince. (by social programs like pensions)
Wich is btw one of the big reasons why Europe allows a good deal of immigrants in the first place.

I don't think you can deport someone who is a citizen. (Which, I assume, someone born in France is.) I guess you could exile them, though.

As i heard of the news they specificly talked about deporting people of wich some were born in france and had french nationality.What nationality they will have after they are deported? Don't know ,probably "none" ,frightning thought.

 

[Steph]

You have to make it so that it become possible. And that's utterly impossible since the country is blocked at all level of the society. You want to change the smallest tiny thing and it's considered as the apocalypse coming.

"A la grève!"
What was the topic of the reform this time by the way?

 

[Marla_Singer]

Just for fun, here's a map of France according to CNN.

Strasbourg is in Germany, Toulouse is in Switzerland, Cannes is at the border of Spain, even Paris is misplaced !

Anyway, I've watched CNN as I was in my parents place and if I believe what the reporter says, France is nearly in civil war... the country is in chaos and all cities are bombed out. It's really total crap.

 

[Marla_Singer]

If the image above doesn't appear, here's another snapshot :

 

[kronic]

Strasbourg is in Germany

Can't see the map so far but I hope they gave Strasbourg her proper name (Straßburg ).

edit: damn

@Toulouse

 

[Akka]

And as you can see, "France" is actually in Poland.

I didn't knew we conquered the whole continent yet

 

[Riesstiu IV]

Damn. What kind of people do they hire at CNN. I could do a much better job and I'm not even a geography major.

 

[amadeus]

Not as funny as when MSNBC had Niger Innis on.

 

[Urederra]

If the image above doesn't appear, here's another snapshot :

Oh, that's hilarious. After that, Who can trust any journalist?

 

[Renata]

@ Little Raven -- In a lot of countries, it isn't enough to be born there to be a citizen. I'm not sure whether France is one of them. As an American, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the concept.

 

[Masquerouge]

@ Little Raven -- In a lot of countries, it isn't enough to be born there to be a citizen. I'm not sure whether France is one of them. As an American, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the concept.

In France it pretty much is. You might have to ask for it when you're 18, IIRC, but that's it.