Paris burning

[klazlo]

There's no need to insist Klazlo, it won't happen.

Furthermore, I highly doubt there are so extraordinary bonus as you may assume. I like people's differences to be respected by the government. And that's certainly a cultural difference with no matter the place you're from (I don't care honnestly), but such a thing as you're proposing would be considered in France as a severe individual rights offence.

No one would agree, me included.

Having information by the government does not necessarily mean abusing this information by the government. Or does it?
Actually I don't insist and I don't really care if you want to stick your heads into the sand. If you don't need reliable data, that's your problem.
It seems to me that in studying the social reality, France took some wild turns since Emile Durkheim.

 

[Akka]

This would be useful, it isn't even worth debating it.
And this is exactly why you have problems like this. France apparently doesn't have the sufficient knowledge about immigrants, neither to help their situation, not to fend off extreme right-wing claims.
Also, it is not necessarily about the color of your skin, but your identity. Pushing people into one uber-identity, like you guys do it, never worked (think of Bismarck or the "melting pot"). And it did not work in France either. The sooner France gets accustomed to multiethnicity and the possibility of multiple identities (based on race, ethnicity or whatever), the sooner you'll be able to solve this problem.

On the contrary.

I would oppose any kind of affirmative action (which is after all still discrimination) to the end, and I fully support the French point of view. It's a cultural thing, and actually it DID work in France until the 70s-80s (so, for about 200 years, which is quite good enough to show that it's valid in its roots).
About numbers, in fact it's perhaps even easier to distort numbers than to distort absence of numbers. And I don't think that the results would be worth the death of the principle. In fact, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't.

 

[klazlo]

On the contrary.

I would oppose any kind of affirmative action (which is after all still discrimination) to the end, and I fully support the French point of view. It's a cultural thing, and actually it DID work in France until the 70s-80s (so, for about 200 years, which is quite good enough to show that it's valid in its roots).
About numbers, in fact it's perhaps even easier to distort numbers than to distort absence of numbers. And I don't think that the results would be worth the death of the principle. In fact, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't.

I wrote nothing about affirmative action... Having data is a basic thing which provides choices to go for AA or don't go or do something completely different. But at least the decision can be made on some solid ground and not on fuzzy ideas distorted by the media or political agendas.

But again, you're most welcome to not have empirically grounded decisions and defend the principle of ignorance.

 

[Verbose]

But again, you're most welcome to not have empirically grounded decisions and defend the principle of ignorance.

The problem with measuring these things is that it quickly leaves the realm of facts and enters the one of politics of symbols.

Social sciences are inherently beset by these problems — you can't just measure what's "there", since the act of measuring in itself may alter the situation.
Things may start to morph in interesting and not always beneficial ways...

But I sure wouldn't like to make the call on which course of action works better here.

 

[Steph]

That's the reason why there's no questions about "races" or religions in French census. It's simply considered to not be the business of the government. And most French people would find it offensive if it would be different.

Hmm... I think it has even been made illegal after WWII to ask it in government census

 

[Elrohir]

Who can imagine that 50% was a scientifically determined statistics ??

That thing remains that in general there were as many black people rioting than arab people, to speak as in French media since recent days....

Oh, is it unreasonable to assume that if you quote a figure in an argument, you know what you're talking about? Apparently when dealing with you that is unreasonable.

So what? Many Africans are Muslim, especially ones from former French colonies like Morocco. Islam is not an exclusively Arab religion, and to say the rioters are not largely Islamic because half the rioters are black is to show your ignorance of the religions ethnic makeup.

However you failed to provide the figures that support your opinion. If you think that Islam is the cause, then you sure will have figures about the % of people rioting that are doing so for religious causes. Please, provide them, or your opinion will not be backed with facts and will hence be just a random opinion.

For crying out loud.....where did these riots start? With Muslim youths. Where have they mostly taken place? In poor, ghetto's that are populated largely by, you guessed it, Muslim immigrants or descendants of immigrants.

Don't they teach any sort of reasoning where you come from?

 

[Little Raven]

For crying out loud.....where did these riots start? With Muslim youths. Where have they mostly taken place? In poor, ghetto's that are populated largely by, you guessed it, Muslim immigrants or descendants of immigrants.

As opposed to other riots throughout history, which were exclusively the province of neighborhoods populated by wealthy Muslim immigrants or descendants of immigrants.

Obviously, it's the Muslim immigrants or descendants of immigrants part that's the common factor here.

 

[Elrohir]

Perhaps you could expound on your view a little more.

 

[jameson]

Oh, is it unreasonable to assume that if you quote a figure in an argument, you know what you're talking about? Apparently when dealing with you that is unreasonable.

So what? Many Africans are Muslim, especially ones from former French colonies like Morocco. Islam is not an exclusively Arab religion, and to say the rioters are not largely Islamic because half the rioters are black is to show your ignorance of the religions ethnic makeup.

While Morocco may be largely Berber (Berbers being not at all ethnically related to 'Black'Africa), Algeria ( the biggest former French colony) is in fact Arab in majority. Most people who do not suffer from ignorance about the ethnic makeup of a religion consider the Maghreb countries to be part of the Arab world. Or did Morocco become a member of the League of Arab states by accident ?
The black immigrants in France are mostly from other colonies, such as Senegal, Togo, Ivory Coast or the Central African Republic, not all of them Muslim.

For crying out loud.....where did these riots start? With Muslim youths. Where have they mostly taken place? In poor, ghetto's that are populated largely by, you guessed it, Muslim immigrants or descendants of immigrants.

Don't they teach any sort of reasoning where you come from?

For crying out loud.....where did these riots start? With poor and often unemployed youths. Where have they mostly taken place? In poor, ghetto's that are populated largely by, you guessed it, immigrants or descendants of immigrants.

Two statements that are equally factual, one statement that corresponds with the incidence of riots in a range of other cities and countries - always correlated with prevailing poverty and unemployment. Why pick out religion as the explaining factor when there are a whole lot of far more relevant explanatory variables here ? I don't know what kind of reasoning you were taught, but Occam's razor doesn't seem to have figured into it.

Never mind that the French posters here are more likely to have access to a whole range of primary sources and reporting that we don't (though my French is perfectly serviceable, I'm not going to watch French TV or read French newspapers on a daily basis). I'd be extremely hesitant about telling some French poster that I knew their country better than they did, but maybe you suffer from no such inhibitions.

 

[Little Raven]

Perhaps you could expound on your view a little more.

You're a smart guy, Elrohir. A Kung-Fu Master, if I recall correctly.

I'm sure you'll figure it out.

 

[Drewcifer]

youths. Where have they mostly taken place? In poor, ghetto's that are populated largely by, you guessed it, Muslim immigrants or descendants of immigrants.

Don't they teach any sort of reasoning where you come from?

By this argument you could also call the riots in LA in 1992 Christian riots as those rioters were as much Christians as the ones in Paris are Muslim.

 

[Verbose]

For crying out loud.....where did these riots start? With Muslim youths. Where have they mostly taken place? In poor, ghetto's that are populated largely by, you guessed it, Muslim immigrants or descendants of immigrants.

So what do you think the non-Muslim half of the rioters are doing and why?

And just about the first thing people in France DID look for was a Muslim angle — didn't find one.

To sum up a bit from the latest issue of Le Nouvel Observateur (which doesn't like the Gaullist govt btw):

The French govt. has been courting the French Muslim community for years to establish a good relationship.
It didn't help them one bit here since the French Muslim community has no leverage with the rioters.

Now it's getting weird, as the official Muslim community, which had nothing to do with starting the riots, no leverage with the rioters or means of influencing the situation, has come under preassure, and they have complied, to issue an official statement condemning the riots.

That's right, a statement about something that's got noting to do with them simply because they are Muslim.

Next might very well be someone in the US picking up on this statement as confirmation that the riots were "Muslim" after all. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

Don't they teach any sort of reasoning where you come from?

You're mostly into sophistry by now, I take it?

Your logic is OK — question is if your premises are correct.

Most people around here keep telling you they are wrong, and try to explain in what way.

You just don't seem to be either receiving or re-examining anything in your own position.

Stubborn isn't the same as incisive you know.

 

[kryszcztov]

And no answer to my latest post (#766) despite posting in this thread anyway. Elrohir, either you're trying to figure out how to answer me, either you're just ignoring my post so as to not admit you're wrong. May Godwin help you...

 

[Elrohir]

You're a smart guy, Elrohir. A Kung-Fu Master, if I recall correctly.

I'm sure you'll figure it out.

I did, but I was hoping you might have more to say besides that two sentence post.

By this argument you could also call the riots in LA in 1992 Christian riots as those rioters were as much Christians as the ones in Paris are Muslim.

Apparently you've never been to LA.

And no answer to my latest post (#766) despite posting in this thread anyway. Elrohir, either you're trying to figure out how to answer me, either you're just ignoring my post so as to not admit you're wrong. May Godwin help you...

There are at least five different people responding to my posts on this thread alone right about now. I'm a little busy, you'll get your turn without whining like a little child who isn't getting attention.

Anyway, moving past your immaturity, I would say that quote only goes to show how blind the French government is towards this situation. Of course they don't say that these rioters are largely Muslims - that would be insensitive.

 

[eyrei]

Moderator Action: Enough with the insults. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Little Raven]

I did, but I was hoping you might have more to say besides that two sentence post.

To steal the words of a man wiser than I: Simplify, simplify.

 

[Drewcifer]

Apparently you've never been to LA.

Being from a muslim culture does not make you muslim anymore than being from a christian one makes you christian, that was the point I was trying to make. It seems to me that the riots in France were all about immigration issues and urban problems, and had nearly nothing to do with religion.

 

[Elrohir]

To steal the words of a man wiser than I: Simplify, simplify.

Alright, fair enough.

Being from a muslim culture does not make you muslim anymore than being from a christian one makes you christian, that was the point I was trying to make. It seems to me that the riots in France were all about immigration issues and urban problems, and had nearly nothing to do with religion.

Granted, but the fact remains that these are youths from largely Muslim communities wh oare rioting. Where are the riots in largely Christian French communities? (The two that are left )

I never claimed that Islam was the sole cause, or even the sole common denominator between the rioters. But to claim that Islam has nothing to do with this is absurd.

 

[Marla_Singer]

So what's your explanation about rioters having their roots in the West Indies, Central Africa, Western christian Africa, Portugal, Spain, Italy or France ? They want to convert to Islam ?

I would agree with your vision if the riots were made strictly by muslim people, but that was far to be the case obviously.

 

[Elrohir]

I didn't say that only Muslims were rioting, but a large majority of the rioters are Muslims. If you have something to contradict this assertion, now is the time to put it forward. (Hint hint, let's see that "50% of rioters are not Muslims" link)