Peak Oil : What the magazine THE ECONOMIST said

warpus said:
Y2K is a bad example - the reason there weren't any major problems is because so much time, effort, and money was spent fixing computer code/systems/etc.
Fact is, it was possible to fix everything and nothing happened.

Doomsayers insisted that there was no time, that planes would crash and billions would be lost as data systems collapsed.

It's the same thing here. There is a real oil problem, but it won't mean the end of the world or an economic collapse of any form. Not only because oil will take far more time to peak than doomsayers think, but also because alternatives are beign developed(some already are) as we speak.

So doomsayers will be proven wrong again, and 30 years from now they'll say: "yeah, those guys were wrong back then, but that doesn't mean we are wrong now. The world as we know it will END! We are all doomed because of ..."
 
Well .. there seem to be two brands of doomsayers.

El_Mac: "Aging will kill us all, unless we cure it ... so we should work on a cure"

Duffus: "Aging will kill us all ... we're doomed ... DOOMED"

ie, the people who see a problem and encourage a solution, vs. those who see a problem and cannot see a solution, either.
 
luiz said:
Fact is, it was possible to fix everything and nothing happened.

Doomsayers insisted that there was no time, that planes would crash and billions would be lost as data systems collapsed.

No, they said that planes would crash and billions would be lost as data systems collapsed if nothing was done about the bug.

The reason peak oil may not end up becoming a problem is because people are anticipating it and investing in alternative energy sources or even in, shock, horror, conservation (famously dismissed by VP Cheney as nothing more than 'a sign of personal virtue' ). You pointed this out, but supposing there weren't any doomsayers around, would people really realize what could be coming ? I'm thinking doomsayers are actually performing a rather valuable public service ;).
 
El_Machinae said:
Well .. there seem to be two brands of doomsayers.
El_Mac: "Aging will kill us all, unless we cure it ... so we should work on a cure"
Duffus: "Aging will kill us all ... we're doomed ... DOOMED"
ie, the people who see a problem and encourage a solution, vs. those who see a problem and cannot see a solution, either.

I believe there are solutions, but I don't see anyone in the US (government) taking the right ones. As I have posted before, price signals will come far too late for alternatives to make up the rate of depletion on the downside of the oil production curve. We need to be investing in them now, while the price of the energy required for that massive capital investment is still relatively cheap.

The Germans have the right idea - they made manufacturers legally responsible for the disposal of their packaging, so packaging is a minimum and recycling is huge there. They also have a long term goal to transition to renewable energy and have been funding this goal, starting with wind power in the 80s, so that currently they have the largest installed capacity of wind power which makes up 6% of their electricity.

Similarly they are the worlds no 2 solar cell producer and no 1 installer, and their early investment (sponsored by the government) in this area means they are now in the situation of exporting their technology as they are ahead of most other nations.

The only part of Germany's policy I disagree with is their phasing out of nuclear, I think nuclear will be an essential transition power source to reduce CO2 emissions.
 
As I have posted before, price signals will come far too late for alternatives to make up the rate of depletion on the downside of the oil production curve.

I agree. Actually, I think the refinery bottleneck has been a godsend for the States. I think that the fuel is being priced based off of supply/demand, and the price does not reflect the reserves aren't being amortized. Same with our water supply, actually.

The problem is that the alternate fuels have a hard barrier, the price of oil. The alternates may be researched before they're cost effective (with an eye to them being cost effect later), but the market will be really slow in the meantime.

Like with computers, it's the consumption that vastly improves the technology. The more solar the germans install, the faster the price of solar drops for us ... meaning that it will reach a competitive pricing sooner than it would have.

I talk about this in my, speeding R&D thread and would love contributions...
 
JerichoHill said:
We are NOT about to run out of oil

Credit: The Economist

Very interesting article, which addresses the issues very well, I think. The point is clearly made that no one knows how much oil is left, so that to accurately determine when peak oil will come is difficult, if not impossible. What is more is that when it comes, it may actually stimulate new technology that would render oil obsolete anyway. The only thing I find that the article harps on, and doesn't address appropriately is the whole notion of synthetic, manufactured fuels. It's ridiculous because to manufacture anything requires energy, so you actually LOSE energy by trying to manufacture another fuel using another power source.
 
friskymike said:
I believe there are solutions, but I don't see anyone in the US (government) taking the right ones. As I have posted before, price signals will come far too late for alternatives to make up the rate of depletion on the downside of the oil production curve. We need to be investing in them now, while the price of the energy required for that massive capital investment is still relatively cheap.

Agreed, and incidently, here's what the economist has to say about the current US administrations energy policy.

economist said:
The pusher-in-chief

Feb 2nd 2006 | WASHINGTON, DC
From The Economist print edition


The administration's energy policy remains a disgrace


“AMERICA is addicted to oil.” Those may be the most memorable words of George Bush's state-of-the-union speech. Not quite as evocative as “axis of evil” perhaps, but still a fairly candid confession—especially from a man who spent much of his early life trying to prosper from that addiction.

The soundbite also came with a dramatic goal: to replace more than 75% of America's oil imports from the Middle East by 2025. To achieve this, Mr Bush unveiled something called the Advanced Energy Initiative, which promises a 22% boost in clean-energy research into two areas of America's energy-guzzling. “The best way to break this addiction,” insisted Mr Bush, “is through technology.”

One thrust will be changing American homes and offices. Mr Bush promised to boost spending on “clean coal” technologies, renewable energy and nuclear power. The second target is transport. He vowed to increase research spending on better batteries for hybrid and electric cars, as well as on hydrogen fuel cells. He also promised to help a new kind of ethanol—made from wood chips and switchgrass rather than the usual corn—become commercial.


Look closely, though, and it turns out that this grand new plan to end oil addiction is really no such thing. Take, for a start, that objective of replacing three-quarters of Middle Eastern imports of oil by 2025. Because oil is a fungible, globally-traded commodity, it does not matter where imports come from. Even if America got all its oil from Canada, Venezuela and Nigeria, an oil shock in Saudi Arabia would send the price of every barrel of oil skyrocketing—even Alaskan barrels. Only abandoning foreign oil completely would free America from the prospect of an oil shock.

The problem is not that the technologies identified by Mr Bush are necessarily the wrong ones. Quite the contrary. Some of the approaches he points to, such as “plug-in” hybrid cars and “cellulosic” ethanol, are quite promising.

The problems with Mr Bush's speech are the same ones that undermined his energy policy, which was passed into law as the Energy Act last year. That grotesque law handed out tens of billions of dollars in subsidies to every imaginable source of energy. But it did nothing to promote carbon trading; it did not mention carbon taxes; it had no tightening of vehicle fuel-economy rules.

In short, Mr Bush is still avoiding most of the regulations that might actually encourage the market to ditch dirty technologies in favour of clean ones. And he is still avoiding any attempt to make Americans pay the true cost of the energy they guzzle. Until that happens, he is firmly on the side of the pusher, not the addict.
 
Drilling had doubled in recent years, yet production has stagnated. Interpret that how you may. We've got many more years... no need to panic. But not too many.

Dubai, for example, knows for certain that their oil reserves will be exhausted in about 12 years. That's why they've concentrated on investing on their future w/o oil (tourism, commerce, etc.)
 
friskymike said:
The early years provided some of the largest, easiest to extract oil providing the first peak in production - but look at the steepness of the decline of that first peak! Rising prices in the late 80s/early 90s led to more exploration and the the use of advanced EOR techniques to temporarily reduce the decline of existing fields, providing a second peak - but now that is declining too at some 15% per year, and there are no more large fields to find, or advanced techniques to use. I believe the world is up near the blue section of that second peak.

The bolded part has me curious - how do we know there are no more advanced techniques to use? Isn't that inherently unknowable, at the very least?
 
IgloodDude said:
The bolded part has me curious - how do we know there are no more advanced techniques to use? Isn't that inherently unknowable, at the very least?

Well, OK, we don't know what techniques may be available in the future, but we do know that each new advanced technique used has a smaller marginal rate of improvement. Oil production isn't sub-atomic physics, its pretty well understood and there are only so many things you can do to get more out of the ground...

In approximate order from making the most difference in production to making the least difference in production:
- drill more holes in the reservoir, and make them multi-lateral horizontal holes rather than old style vertical holes
- inject water to increase the reservoir pressure and displace more oil towards the producing wells
- use artifical lift such as downhole pumps, nodding donkeys or gas lift to suck oil out of the reservoir faster
- inject CO2, steam or other fluids to mobilise oil which is caught up on the reservoir rock surfaces by friction
- inject chemicals or introduce bacteria to make the rock surfaces more 'slippery'

Some of those techniques will make a small difference in ultimate recovery, however often when you do those things you will often get more production now, at the cost of less production later as you are basically just sucking the reservoir dry faster.
 
@ JerichoHill:

I accept the economist as a very good newspaper and this article is well written, but what allways disturbs me in this kind of article is this diffuse believe in technology. This allways reminds me of one of my physics proffesors in university who is doing research in this field and who said this phrase: " I often got the impression that economists think that we are gods and that we can do everything if they just provide us with money". And the problem is we can't do everything. We can study the laws of nature and use them to our advantage but we can't cheat.
Every scientist I know of and who works in the field agrees that without fossil fuel we just can't keep up the current energyconsumption (fusion is the wildcard here, but even if it works, it will probably not be cheap).
That's why I don't understand why we shouldn't start now to prepare for a future in which we are probably forced to use less energy.
Preparation today should include:
- Better information on total cost of a buy: Quite often people buy whats cheapest... or what they think is cheapest. Best example is energysaving light. They cost more to buy, but in the long run they are cheaper. And it's the same for a lot of electronic devices and whats most important, for houses. The reason is that a lot of people just don't know this. I'm no economist but wouldn't a better information (for example by forced energylabels) make the market work better?
- I only heard of this by friends who were in the US, but they told me that quite often in big buildings the air condition was that strong that they had to put on the heating (in summer). Is this reasonable?
- Energy taxes. Anyway the state needs taxes, so why don't take them from the most powerfull productionfactor and reduce taxes on human work?
- Layout of new urban areas in a way that MassTransit systems can be implemented easily.

I can think of a lot of things how we can reduce our energyconsumption without any hurt, so why oppose them?

Greets, Goa
 
friskymike said:
Well, OK, we don't know what techniques may be available in the future, but we do know that each new advanced technique used has a smaller marginal rate of improvement. Oil production isn't sub-atomic physics, its pretty well understood and there are only so many things you can do to get more out of the ground...

In approximate order from making the most difference in production to making the least difference in production:
- drill more holes in the reservoir, and make them multi-lateral horizontal holes rather than old style vertical holes
- inject water to increase the reservoir pressure and displace more oil towards the producing wells
- use artifical lift such as downhole pumps, nodding donkeys or gas lift to suck oil out of the reservoir faster
- inject CO2, steam or other fluids to mobilise oil which is caught up on the reservoir rock surfaces by friction
- inject chemicals or introduce bacteria to make the rock surfaces more 'slippery'

Some of those techniques will make a small difference in ultimate recovery, however often when you do those things you will often get more production now, at the cost of less production later as you are basically just sucking the reservoir dry faster.

I'm falling into a he-said, she-said problem here; can you correlate what you just said with this bit in the Economist article?
article said:
The Saudis have invited Chevron to apply its steam-injection techniques to recover heavy oil in the neutral zone that the country shares with Kuwait. Mr Naimi, the oil minister, recently estimated that this new technology would lift the share of the reserve that could be recovered as useful oil from a pitiful 6% to above 40%.
35% of a reserve = small difference?
 
Nanocyborgasm said:
Very interesting article, which addresses the issues very well, I think. The point is clearly made that no one knows how much oil is left, so that to accurately determine when peak oil will come is difficult, if not impossible.
The article says it very well when they point out that commodity traders don't necessarily trade on the value of a barrel of oil today, but what it could be in five or seven years.

What is more is that when it comes, it may actually stimulate new technology that would render oil obsolete anyway.
But there's no "it" coming. Any decline in oil production would be gradual, not sudden. We aren't going to wake up one morning and find out that the well has run dry. We'll know about it far in advance.

The only thing I find that the article harps on, and doesn't address appropriately is the whole notion of synthetic, manufactured fuels. It's ridiculous because to manufacture anything requires energy, so you actually LOSE energy by trying to manufacture another fuel using another power source.
Drilling and refining requires energy too, does that mean drilling for oil is a losing proposition?

Lotus49 said:
Dubai, for example, knows for certain that their oil reserves will be exhausted in about 12 years. That's why they've concentrated on investing on their future w/o oil (tourism, commerce, etc.)
I'd also say that Dubai wants to diversify their economy to protect not against the oil "running out" but the chance that commodity prices plummet.

Zambia is a good example of that happening. Aside from the corruption and mismanagement of Kenneth Kaunda's reign, the price of copper bottomed out in the mid-70s and the Zambian economy was crushed.
 
rmsharpe said:
Drilling and refining requires energy too, does that mean drilling for oil is a losing proposition?
Almost. Back in the days of abundence we got a 24/1 energy return on the energy invested to find and extract oil. Now in is less than 2/1. As oil gets harder to find/extract it will go down further.
 
IglooDude said:
I'm falling into a he-said, she-said problem here; can you correlate what you just said with this bit in the Economist article?
article said:
Originally Posted by article
The Saudis have invited Chevron to apply its steam-injection techniques to recover heavy oil in the neutral zone that the country shares with Kuwait. Mr Naimi, the oil minister, recently estimated that this new technology would lift the share of the reserve that could be recovered as useful oil from a pitiful 6% to above 40%.
35% of a reserve = small difference?

No, of course you are right 35% improvement in URR (ultimate recovered resrouce) is quite significant. However this in the case of a heavy oil reserve. Most current fields are light oil which does not require heat input from steam to mobilise them. Also, this is certainly not new technology, its been around for years, and most heavy oil reserves brought online in the last 10-20 years if not longer would have had this technology planned from the start. So I'd say this is quite an old oilfield that is having newer technology applied to it. It makes a nice example, but the number of such fields where such a large difference in URR can be achieved is minimal.
 
rmsharpe said:
Drilling and refining requires energy too, does that mean drilling for oil is a losing proposition?

No, because it takes less energy to drill than the energy that you get out of the oil.
 
rmsharpe said:
I'd also say that Dubai wants to diversify their economy to protect not against the oil "running out" but the chance that commodity prices plummet.

Zambia is a good example of that happening. Aside from the corruption and mismanagement of Kenneth Kaunda's reign, the price of copper bottomed out in the mid-70s and the Zambian economy was crushed.

I saw a recent documentary on the Science Channel about Dubai, wherein it specifically stated that the Dubai leaders knew their supply was limited (as I specified) and by order of the Prince, the economic minister was tasked with preparing the country for a future w/o oil reserves. That's why they've been 'branching out' in recent years.
 
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