Personality and the "soul"

Does the soul exist?

You'll find out when you die. Speculation in the meantime is just masturbation.

/thread.

BTW, I think free will exists. Why? Cause it's depressing to think it doesn't. No one can prove it either way but people who don't believe in free will are depressing fatalists & if I can use my free will to avoid being one of them I will!
 
Cause it's depressing to think it doesn't. No one can prove it either way but people who don't believe in free will are depressing fatalists & if I can use my free will to avoid being one of them I will!

Awww... we can be fun... I look at life as if it were a roller coaster, the path is set, but since you've never done any of the things before, the ups and downs and loops are still really fun.
 
I dunno man, it's depressing thinking you are a robot.

I don't see much point in a soul if it's got no free will.
 
I dunno man, it's depressing thinking you are a robot.

I don't see much point in a soul if it's got no free will.

I guess ignorance is bliss when it comes to some things. But another thing I think about is if reality exists from human perception. Like.. if a lie is believed by everyone on the face of the earth, does that lie become truth since nobody is there to dispute it?

Like.. pre-astronomy the earth might as well be actually flat, and in ancient Greece, there might as well have been a whole pantheon of gods because everyone truly believed it and it influenced how they behaved and what decisions they made.
 
I guess ignorance is bliss when it comes to some things.
You can't say ignorance is bliss because you don't know my view is wrong.

But there's no point getting yourself depressed over something you deem might be true when you don't know for sure. If the knowledge of something makes little to no practical difference in your life (free will being the perfect example) you might as well believe in whatever makes you happier.

But another thing I think about is if reality exists from human perception. Like.. if a lie is believed by everyone on the face of the earth, does that lie become truth since nobody is there to dispute it?

Like.. pre-astronomy the earth might as well be actually flat, and in ancient Greece, there might as well have been a whole pantheon of gods because everyone truly believed it and it influenced how they behaved and what decisions they made.
The lie doesn't become the truth, but if something has no everyday practical relevance it doesn't really matter WHAT you believe. Sometimes it's actually beneficial to take a leap of faith. For example people who "believe in" prayer & more likely to do it obviously. Whether or not prayer works is irrelevant. They believe it works & this belief gives them comfort in hard times. Instead of getting wasted at the bar & chain smoking or drowning their sorrows in ice cream, they pray, which relaxes them, lowers their heart-rate, clears their heads somewhat & with faith in God (real or not) they then act from a more centered place & their lives have a better chance of improving. When they do improve they may thank God rather than thanking themselves & praising their own good habits of prayer/meditation/fasting/whatever but it doesn't really matter, what matters is what works.

That's pretty much my philosophy of life. What matters is what works. If thinking about free-will & God & the devil & all that makes you happy, do that. If studying classical music makes you happy, do that. If chasing girls... you get the idea. But be mindful of what really is working & what isn't & don't lie to yourself because then you'll be frustrated & you won't know why (cause you haven't let yourself know).

I believe in free will because I use my will (even if it's just fake-programmed in-robot-will) & not much makes me happier than using my free will to break a bad habit & create a good one. It's hard when you're in a rut & there are indeed a multitude of factors in my life outside of my control but it's rewarding when it works & when it doesn't it pays to figure out why instead of just thinking "I guess I just suck".

I feel bad for this one uber-critical guy here who's into philosophy but I'm not sure why, anywayz, he's always making super critical cutting judgements upon very superficial understanding of a subject & then gets emotional & makes decisions one way or another based on that. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing (like thinking you know someone or something based on one or two things about them). It's just lazy thinking. But that's a tangent.

BTW, Coolio, who is your avatar, he's funny looking and reminds me a of a buddy of mine from college (who made weird faces like that)?
 
Be careful what you pretend to be because you are what you pretend to be.

Amusingly I believe the opposite: People often think they are more than they really are (e.g. over-inflation of self).

But I do agree with a similar quote to your quote:
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Nietzsche


Anyway, on your OP, a simple solution is that people may be pre-determined to particular imaginings, so again, determinism would still rule, by your premise. As a biologist, I lean more to a mixture of determinism, environment, and that intellect provides free will which provides a means to escape determinism, conditionally.
 
my avatar is Vince Offer, the salesmen for Sham Wow! im surprised you dont know him, hes all over the interwebz lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns4mnmNBk1Y
Yeah Narz, I completely get what you are saying with the "if its not broken, why fix it" viewpoint and thats where I was going with what I was saying previously.

I wasnt trying to say that lies BECOME truth if everyone believes it, im saying the lie may as well be truth if everyone believes it.. but when it gets to that point, there is nobody to distinguish between what is true and false.
 
Total trainwreck, but I love how the Shamwow guy looks like the Scout model from Team Fortress 2.
 
Our memories shape who we are --- they are in fact who we are. I count memory as including the memory of ways we think. "As we think, so we become": I don't know where that comes from, but I think it's true, to a large extent. The Stoics were big on controlling the ways they thought.

As for free will, I consider the point moot: seems to me as if the consequences in either circumstance are the same. If I'm destined to drop a water bottle in three minutes or if I do it purely by accident, the water bottle is still dropped.
 
What I think right now is that someones personality is completely predictable. All choices are made because of previous events and the chemical makeup of your brain at the given moment. Determinism at its finest.

Our brains are built from non-deterministic building blocks, so I'm not so sure you're right about that.
 
Our memories shape who we are --- they are in fact who we are.
What about people who've lost their memories completely (yet still have some semblance of personality & ability to function). Who are they?
 
Personally I dont have a problem with "pretending to be" someone. I very well may "pretend to be who Im not" for whatever reason but soon afterwards I will unconsciously drop the charade and return to my normal self.

As for free will, I consider the point moot: seems to me as if the consequences in either circumstance are the same. If I'm destined to drop a water bottle in three minutes or if I do it purely by accident, the water bottle is still dropped.

Yes. This is my exact feelings on the subject.
 
My take:
Free will is inherently deterministic. The great thing about free will is that you can make judgments based on your values and mind. Choice isn't random. If it were then there would be nothing of you in it, so it's not worth much. Might as well flip a coin. But the choices we value most are those where we get to choose based on what we want, our values, and our emotions. All of these things are deterministic, and determined by our state of mind, our history, and our genes. They are what make us. As a result the choice itself is necessarily deterministic.

The great thing about free will isn't that it's unpredictable, cause it isn't, it's that it is unique to each one of us.
 
Has anyone ever imagined that only a very few people have souls or free will?

Goodgame's 'conditional' qualifier makes me wonder if it's possible with a human brain to exercise free will, but not pre-determined.
How does one switch over? Are people always exercising free will, but in many people simply exercising it by allowing instinctive desires and attitudes to rule?
 
How is a neuron not deterministic?

I believe quantum tunneling has been shown to affect neurons.

But even if it hasn't - neurons are built from what? Atoms, right? Non-deterministic atoms.

Souron said:
Free will is inherently deterministic. The great thing about free will is that you can make judgments based on your values and mind.

How could a deterministic machine (or being) make a choice? Determinism implies that every action is entirely determined by a static set of variables, which have all been affected by other pre-determined variables, stretching back to a set of initial conditions.

If you build a deterministic machine and run it through a couple times, you'll always end up with the same end result - if you give it the same initial conditions. There is no room for the machine to make a choice and change the end result.
 
Whether atoms are deterministic or not, doesn't really add to either sides argument for or against free will.

A determinist might ask how the randomness seen in the quantum world would imply freedom of choice? If the random events at the quantum level (they are considered random at this point right?) are influencing or determining what goes on in the macro world, there is still no "freedom" going on. Instead of a robot programmed by initial conditions, you would be a robot programmed by the randomness.
 
I believe quantum tunneling has been shown to affect neurons.

But even if it hasn't - neurons are built from what? Atoms, right? Non-deterministic atoms.

The decay of a single unstable atom is random, but a big pile of them will decay at a predictable rate. A single, isolated event in a neuron might be random, but neurons are big, and just as it would be incredibly unlikely for all the unstable atoms in a pile to decay at the same time, it would be unlikely for quantum effects to add up to be significant enough to cause/prevent an action potential, as far as I know.

How could a deterministic machine (or being) make a choice? Determinism implies that every action is entirely determined by a static set of variables, which have all been affected by other pre-determined variables, stretching back to a set of initial conditions.

If you build a deterministic machine and run it through a couple times, you'll always end up with the same end result - if you give it the same initial conditions. There is no room for the machine to make a choice and change the end result.

The machine thinks it is making a choice because intelligence is so complex it is difficult to run the exact same scenario multiple times, and thus difficult to clearly show that free will is merely an illusion.
 
Whether atoms are deterministic or not, doesn't really add to either sides argument for or against free will.

I have to say the same about neurons, since we are obviously more than the some of our parts.
 
If you build a deterministic machine and run it through a couple times, you'll always end up with the same end result - if you give it the same initial conditions. There is no room for the machine to make a choice and change the end result.

What would you consider a choice?

Same machine, same input and yet different output on several run throughs? But means that the machine has nothing to do with the differences in output, because it is stipulated to be exactly the same all the time. Similar with a mathmatical equation. Take X + Y as analogous to the machine and x=1 and y=2 as a specific set of input. Now if all of a sudden you end up with 5 as an end "result" on some tries, while other tries yield 7, and yet other tries 3 then exactly what are you left with?
 
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