PH12: Men in Tights

i like that idea of Darius of the french -- financial, cheap courthouses, free GAs. anyone else?

Masonry and the GWall will be necessary i would htink. i need to read those RBtS games, too, as well as other spy one out there.

edit: also, perhaps ABCs should be either the first or second Classical Age tech we discover (writings not classical right?)
 
edit: also, perhaps ABCs should be either the first or second Classical Age tech we discover (writings not classical right?)

You're right - the variant is too easy :lol:

No, I see your point - it is possible to research very very far before getting Alpha.
 
Glad to be in :)

Most essential part is getting Pyramids and Sistinel Chapel. We don't necessary need Great Wall as lack of EP's won't be a problem. Edit: Okay... forgot that shutting research down part... Maybe GW is essential ;)

I would rather get as much Great Artist's as possible. That's why one city should concentrate on wonders that provide GA points. National Epic goes naturally there.

Major plus would be getting first to Economics and use that free GM for Sid's Sushi. Edit: Should again concentrate little more... No chances here... :D

My vote for leader is Louis of Ethiopia. We need every help we can get (Cre + Ind). Unique building gives 25% culture and oromo warriors rock! :D

In my understanding, culture slider won't help much without cottages...

How does Financial work well without cottages?
 
Just checking in! :)

Variants all sound good - this is going to be some crazy fun.

Any old leader/civ combo works for me!

I probably shouldn't sign up for anything new, as I'm having a lot on RLwise at the moment. But this is too fun to pass up. Beat me with a stick if I slack. :)
 
we're going to need any bit of help we can get in the way of commerce, so calendar resources, and such will be a HUGE boon with the bonus from financial. also, Colossus may be necessary.

If no one has any objections, i'll roll up a start to this later tonight w/Louis of Ethiopia.
 
I believe our science is enough with representation spy specialist's. Remember also that we will be stealing lot's of techs.

Edit: Hmm.. now that I think about it, Caste System doesn't allow you to run unlimited spies? Oh... I'm starting to see some challenge now...
 
Lurker's comment

They may look like pansies/ but don't get them wrong or else they'll put out your lights!
 
My vote for leader is Louis of Ethiopia. We need every help we can get (Cre + Ind). Unique building gives 25% culture and oromo warriors rock! :D

In my understanding, culture slider won't help much without cottages...

Steele (Ethiopia UP) obsolets with Astro, so it will not help us much. We need multipliers that go along with Corporations.

Without Cottages financial would affect:
- Coast/Sea
- Ressoureces with +:commerce:
- possible riverside windmills.

Not that many tiles, however those tiles it does affect are boosted by 50%...
 
well, i haven't rolled the start yet, and good thing as i didn't want Louis of ethiopia. i almost think it should just be Louis of France. ind to help w/building wonders we'll never have monopoly-techs for since wonders will have to be a major way we get culture in the game, creative for border pops, can musketeers get wood III promos?? imagine 4 mvmt Musketeers in the game! ahh, cripes, this is muddying the issue, but it was also the one aspect of the game i couldn't figure out on my own.

Let's figure out a basic strategy, perhaps, and work from there. It seems building the GreatWall is integral to it, so IND will help with this in the begining, and later one with wonders. A good second trait may be FIN for the added benefit of the commerce boost. Maybe SPR?? We will need to prioritize those techs which enable spies to be hired, but from the outset, we're going to be stuck for commerce.

perhaps we should alter the rules a bit. Will it be too hard to do an all SPY-SE?? Maybe we can build cottages, but all cities must hire as many spies as they can, and we can not run any other specialists but spies? the exception to this will be our GA city. What does everyone think of this?
 
I would keep the rules that way.... besides wanting to see if a all spy specialist game with a non military or space victory is doable ( not sure.... ), this is PH game... crazy variants with inevitable losses :lol:
 
As Rolo above said - would be interesting to see if this can be done, so i would not change the rules regarding Specialists/Cottages.

Perhaps - just maybe - one possible exception: Allow to run other specialists than spy in one city for a limited period, with the specific purpose to pop a GP needed for a Corporation. Remember we do not have the option to pop a GP from tech, as we will never be first to something.

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Long post, sorry. To make the main point easier to spot, i translocated the conclusions to the top :D

Conclusions

If Sandard leader/civ's: I am still in favor of Louis. He seems to offer the best overall package form all standard IND leaders. And i think somehow he fits with the spirit of the game.

If Unrestricted: Rosewelt of the Summer.
Summer for Ziggurat (because it will help us rexing, and spying really early)
Roosevelt for IND/ORG. Even CHEAPER Ziggurat !!! 45 :hammers: and the reduced costs for Civics - this should allow us some serious rexing while building up the Base of our espionage network at the very same time.

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And now, where tohse conclusions are coming from... :mischief:

On Economy

Scientist-SE is working because of the beaker bonus under Rep, and because of the Techs that can be bulbed by popped GS. Both options we do not have in a Spy-SE.

Also because of the way how the espionage discounts work, we actually want to consistently outproduce every AI civ in Total Esp-Points, not just to create some bulbs.

On the other Hand: there are 7 regular (without wonders) spy Slots to be had in every city ( Courthouse + 2 * (Jail, Sec.Buero, Int.Agency) ) which is quite a lot. Plus the buildings give some base EspPts on they own.

On Culture:

We can't found many religions for multipliers (hepefully some will spread to us tho), we cant run Artists, and there is not much culture to have from slider. Just buildings/wonders are usually not enought.

So what's left are Corporations.

BTW.: Arborea - its one of those regional all land maps, isn't it ?... So basicly we can forget about Sushi... Which happens to be one of the culture corps...
On the bright side - no religions will be founded on the other continent :D

Strategy

We probably want many cities. Because:

0) We don't need to worry that much about our economy - we are not dependant on slider for teching.
1) Ressources (for Corporations). We need to grab as many as we can.
2) The Espionage buildings - each city can have them - we will not have quality commerce cities, so we might have to go over quantity.
I.E. early when the Courthouse is the only espionage source, more cities will mean more Esp-points - and by dumping a courthouse in a new city fast we keep the costs manageable.
3) Production. We will not be in tech lead - never - so we can't rely on more advanced units to keep up power rating, neither can we count on 'quantum leaps' - like beeing first to Rifling. So in the end we will need to be able to outproduce our enemies while at tech parity.

Midterm we might or might not have the possibility to extend our borders by attacking some of the Top Dogs (as we can't go after weak'ish civs).

So it seems that the Initial Landgrab is very important, and should go beyond what would be called 'healthy ReXing' in most games - probably until the slider has to hit the ground.

Wonders

I don't think that we will go Wonder crazy on a large scale on the other hand there are a couple of wonders, which we really don't want to miss (Great Wall, Sistina, Statue of Liberty).

Leader/Civ

I will take IND as fixed - be it just to reduce the number of possible candidates. And i think even for those couple of crucial wonders it would be worth it.

So where does it lead us... My initial thought was Louis - IND/CRE + Salon. Did not concidered unrestricted at that point... Now after giving it some thought... I am unsure...

CRE hm... Helps a bit with the initial Landgrab - faster Boarderpops. But otherwise... 2 Culture does not harm, but is not anywhere near to be meaningful for culture victory. Cheap Buildings... Theaters are not that expensive anyway... Library - we don't need those.

Other interesting Traits
ORG (Rosewelt) - Helps a bit when rexing - via Civic upkeep. Cheep Courthouse - again - good for ReX but also good for espionage.
IMP (Augustus) - faster settlers... good for rexing, but i am not fond of it.
FIN (Huyana) - limited use without Cottages, but every little bit helps...

Salon - nice to have, but perhaps something to help us in the Early Expansion would be of more use...

Other interesting UB's...

Ziggurat - early, cheap courthouse. Cool.
Rathaus (HRE) - 75% of the Corp fees later... Not to sneeze on as well.

Conclusions - see above
 
lurker's comment: may i be the first to recommend Darius of HRE? heavy rex, no pain :D of course you don't have IND which kinda sucks. But your planning on having high production cities anyway right?
 
great reasonings refar. I still really like Louis, and your strategy appraoch. And I will keep the rules the same re: cottages. anyone else want to weigh in?

Pyramids seems to be important too for the early Rep (though Consitution is needed for Jails).
 
Great post Refar. With Roosevelt of the Summer, we could expand until slider hits 0% and keep research going with lot's of Representation spies + more EP's to steal techs.

I really think our leader must have IND trait. So much essential wonders we can't afford to lose.
 
Great rationale Refar :thumbsup:

Roosevelt of Sumerians is a very nice idea ;)
As standard leader, I agree with Louis idea.
Also, I'm happy to see a general outline of our strategy - even at 0% science with spy specialist rep-powered we will manage to discover a tech or two on our own :)
 
we'll let fate decide. i'll roll up a start for both, and we can pick the better one, one w/restricted leaders, the other w/unresticted.
 
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i have to say, i like Louis' start better. all grasslands, no jungles, some forest-less for immediate cottaging. anyone else?
 
Ummm lets compare...

Riverside woodland start with 3 deer versus...
Riverside woodland start with 3 deer.....

Love it!!

I lean slightly to roose's not because of the terrain just because I fancy playing him!!

Think this will come to mighty leaders choice

Ralph
 
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