Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
If we decide to place the Settler, IMO this is the only suitable spot.
Spoiler :
Phaedo02- Rage_Against_The_Machine
- Thread starter Phaedo
- Start date
Smart
King
I don't think that we have time for settlers, our cities are at size one, and it's not good for military production and commerce... Lets build archers or swords and take their towns. They will build settlers for us 
Phaedo
Emperor
For this round we are 20 turns apiece. The Tusker/Sm switch is for this round only as well (assuming we survive that long)
Phaedo
Bucephalus
Elephantium On Deck
Simple MonkeyUP
Smart
Phaedo
Bucephalus
Elephantium On Deck
Simple MonkeyUP
Smart
Phaedo
Emperor
Well, this is interesting isn't it? I guess our only real option is to pump out as much military as possible. Archers first, then swords. Pray that we can get Brennus in on the action. If Willie doesn't let up on the cow (probably not) then I agree that the last dot is the only good one. I guess the horses should be the first target but it's going to be a real pain to have that cow town against us.
The rest of the team has 20 turns apiece but things are getting a bit complicated so let's institute a 10-turn post for discussion. Of course, any decesions such as founding cities, trades or war should cause a pause unless absolutely obvious or previously agreed upon. If there are any doubts about which route to take please ask for input. Most of haven't played together so we don't really know each other's styles. It would be good to have a general consensus of the road we are planning to take for those IBT demands as well. This is a tough start but that will only increase the glory when we take our Land of the Rising Sun to space
The rest of the team has 20 turns apiece but things are getting a bit complicated so let's institute a 10-turn post for discussion. Of course, any decesions such as founding cities, trades or war should cause a pause unless absolutely obvious or previously agreed upon. If there are any doubts about which route to take please ask for input. Most of haven't played together so we don't really know each other's styles. It would be good to have a general consensus of the road we are planning to take for those IBT demands as well. This is a tough start but that will only increase the glory when we take our Land of the Rising Sun to space
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
IMO, we need to reassess this situation; Willie getting HBR this early has moved the goalposts somewhat. I believe that the strategic decisions that we make now, will make or break us; the next 40-50 turns are going to be the most important ones in this game.
My assessment is that an Archer stack is no longer a viable option. Horses will decimate an Archer stack, long before it has a chance to do any damage, and any cities taken would quickly be retaken. I say taken, because without Settlers, raze and replace isn't really an option.
A sword stack would fare a little better, but would need to be large enough to soak up casualties. We have two cities - with the option of a third - so we are not going to get much free unit support, and much of our gpt will need to go to the lux slider if we are to have our cities at the necessary size to crank out Swords effectively.
We need a plan, and it has to be a plan that effectively deals with the threat of Dutch horses. I don't think we can look to the others for any useful help, Hittites are too far away, and without Iron for Gaelic Swords the Celts would just send a few Archers - too few and too late.
However, I do have a plan for your consideration. It would require a disciplined approach, with each of us knowing exactly where we are going with it, and it still may not bear fruit, but I can't think of anything better.
Firstly, we need to plant that Settler, if only for the unit support. The Dotmap I submitted would also grow fast enough to produce a Worker - which we need - followed by a Settler.
We also need to connect the Iron, and connect Osaka to Kyoto. These are priority Worker tasks, though it would be nice to get those silks on line as soon as we have a spare Worker.
We need to get our cities up to size 5 if possible, Kyoto can be there in 20 turns, and start producing Swords.
My plan then hinges on acquiring Writing, something currently beyond our affordabilty, but which should be affordable once the Hittites acquire it.
We would then need to establish an Embassy with Willie. Then comes the risky part. We DOW Brennus, and hope to be able to offer Willie enough of an inducement to ally with us. This is where the extra Worker comes in. We have time while preparing our military to connect a road to 'Horse' town and to a surplus Silks; I'm fairly confident that a lux would be enough to seal the deal.
A nice twenty turn war should see Willie send all of his Horses at Brennus; after 20 turns our stack of Swords should be relatively unopposed as they walk in to 'Horse' town, which once captured would see the end of the horse threat. Then a long hard slog in to the Dutch core would be on the cards. And if Brennus has lost cities, he may even pay tech for peace with us, though that would be a bonus, and is not a factor in my planning. I certainly don't advocate doing any actual fighting with the Celts - we'll leave that to Willie's Horses.
I don't think it necessary to totally eradicate the Dutch, but taking their core territory and exiling them to the Tundra to our South should be our minimum aim. Taking techs for early peace would be counter-productive in the long term.
And that's all I have to say, except it will not be acceptable to dismiss my suggestions without offering an alternative; inertia is not an option.
My assessment is that an Archer stack is no longer a viable option. Horses will decimate an Archer stack, long before it has a chance to do any damage, and any cities taken would quickly be retaken. I say taken, because without Settlers, raze and replace isn't really an option.
A sword stack would fare a little better, but would need to be large enough to soak up casualties. We have two cities - with the option of a third - so we are not going to get much free unit support, and much of our gpt will need to go to the lux slider if we are to have our cities at the necessary size to crank out Swords effectively.
We need a plan, and it has to be a plan that effectively deals with the threat of Dutch horses. I don't think we can look to the others for any useful help, Hittites are too far away, and without Iron for Gaelic Swords the Celts would just send a few Archers - too few and too late.
However, I do have a plan for your consideration. It would require a disciplined approach, with each of us knowing exactly where we are going with it, and it still may not bear fruit, but I can't think of anything better.
Firstly, we need to plant that Settler, if only for the unit support. The Dotmap I submitted would also grow fast enough to produce a Worker - which we need - followed by a Settler.
We also need to connect the Iron, and connect Osaka to Kyoto. These are priority Worker tasks, though it would be nice to get those silks on line as soon as we have a spare Worker.
We need to get our cities up to size 5 if possible, Kyoto can be there in 20 turns, and start producing Swords.
My plan then hinges on acquiring Writing, something currently beyond our affordabilty, but which should be affordable once the Hittites acquire it.
We would then need to establish an Embassy with Willie. Then comes the risky part. We DOW Brennus, and hope to be able to offer Willie enough of an inducement to ally with us. This is where the extra Worker comes in. We have time while preparing our military to connect a road to 'Horse' town and to a surplus Silks; I'm fairly confident that a lux would be enough to seal the deal.
A nice twenty turn war should see Willie send all of his Horses at Brennus; after 20 turns our stack of Swords should be relatively unopposed as they walk in to 'Horse' town, which once captured would see the end of the horse threat. Then a long hard slog in to the Dutch core would be on the cards. And if Brennus has lost cities, he may even pay tech for peace with us, though that would be a bonus, and is not a factor in my planning. I certainly don't advocate doing any actual fighting with the Celts - we'll leave that to Willie's Horses.
I don't think it necessary to totally eradicate the Dutch, but taking their core territory and exiling them to the Tundra to our South should be our minimum aim. Taking techs for early peace would be counter-productive in the long term.
And that's all I have to say, except it will not be acceptable to dismiss my suggestions without offering an alternative; inertia is not an option.
Phaedo
Emperor
After staring blankly at the save for a while, I'm on board with a view towards allying with the Dutch against the Celts.
I don't want to give up on that cow yet though. The Celts have the early power lead and it is us and the Dutch that have suffered. Both Willie and Brennus are impressed with our culture. I don't think Willie will try to block our cow when there is room to the south. I think it is worth it to keep our warrior close to see what he will do. As long as we are next to his units, the AI looks at it as an attack threat so it will probably move to one of the forests. I'd like to keep our settler going to the cow for a couple of turns and if Willie settles too close, we head for new red. I really don't think 3 turns of movement we could lose will cost us the spot. The agression level is set to average (as it always is in my games). Unless Willie has outgrown his land, I don't think he'll value our cow so much. We'll know if he settles (it will also give us a good idea of what the continent looks like over there so there is intelligence value as well). I'd like to put the iron warrior on the hill to spot early movement.
Although, I agree that rolling the dice with 10 archers gives us a greater possibility of snake eyes than sevens, I'd like to keep our options open for the next 5ish turns (basically meaning that we chase the settler pair with our warrior, claiming the cow next turn and moving our settler first SE then S and maybe one more square S before giving up and heading to red depending on Willie's reaction).
The reason I think this is that the AI tends to allow you 3-5 cities before getting agressive and it depends on unit location. I think if the settler crossed the river, Wilie would settler immediately. Have you ever played with the AI and unit placement? I've kept settler pairs moving between 2 squares for more than 10 turns just by moving one of my units back and forth. The first game I encountered it was one of my 1st DG games with a friend of mine through e-mail where we were screwed and kept re-loading to see what we could do. We ended up keeping an Ai settler pair moving between squares for 30 turns while we populated an island just by moving a spear back and forth. Now, that is obviously an exploit but I somehow think that once our settler crosses the river the AI will assume we are settling North. I may be out to lunch but I think if we make the next settler move SE, we lose 1 turn to red but can see how Willie reacts. I would assume he wont settle on the cow. If he moves SW, he doesn't see our warrior as a threat and will definately settle. If he moves W or SE, the warrior is doing his job and we should push it one more turn to see the reaction.
Also, after staring at the save, it looks like the plains to the NW is a coastal square. That gives us another possible location. It is a much lower priority but it's nice to know we have options and I somehow feel the west is the direction of new contacts. I don't thik this directly affects the Willie vs. Brennus strategy, but I'd like to see how the next 3-5 turns play out before we stop thinking of alternatives.
To summarize, I agree with Buce, but I'd like to see what Willie does with his settler pair for the next 2-3 turns before giving up on blue. I think the benefits of the cow are worth the risk
I don't want to give up on that cow yet though. The Celts have the early power lead and it is us and the Dutch that have suffered. Both Willie and Brennus are impressed with our culture. I don't think Willie will try to block our cow when there is room to the south. I think it is worth it to keep our warrior close to see what he will do. As long as we are next to his units, the AI looks at it as an attack threat so it will probably move to one of the forests. I'd like to keep our settler going to the cow for a couple of turns and if Willie settles too close, we head for new red. I really don't think 3 turns of movement we could lose will cost us the spot. The agression level is set to average (as it always is in my games). Unless Willie has outgrown his land, I don't think he'll value our cow so much. We'll know if he settles (it will also give us a good idea of what the continent looks like over there so there is intelligence value as well). I'd like to put the iron warrior on the hill to spot early movement.
Although, I agree that rolling the dice with 10 archers gives us a greater possibility of snake eyes than sevens, I'd like to keep our options open for the next 5ish turns (basically meaning that we chase the settler pair with our warrior, claiming the cow next turn and moving our settler first SE then S and maybe one more square S before giving up and heading to red depending on Willie's reaction).
The reason I think this is that the AI tends to allow you 3-5 cities before getting agressive and it depends on unit location. I think if the settler crossed the river, Wilie would settler immediately. Have you ever played with the AI and unit placement? I've kept settler pairs moving between 2 squares for more than 10 turns just by moving one of my units back and forth. The first game I encountered it was one of my 1st DG games with a friend of mine through e-mail where we were screwed and kept re-loading to see what we could do. We ended up keeping an Ai settler pair moving between squares for 30 turns while we populated an island just by moving a spear back and forth. Now, that is obviously an exploit but I somehow think that once our settler crosses the river the AI will assume we are settling North. I may be out to lunch but I think if we make the next settler move SE, we lose 1 turn to red but can see how Willie reacts. I would assume he wont settle on the cow. If he moves SW, he doesn't see our warrior as a threat and will definately settle. If he moves W or SE, the warrior is doing his job and we should push it one more turn to see the reaction.
Also, after staring at the save, it looks like the plains to the NW is a coastal square. That gives us another possible location. It is a much lower priority but it's nice to know we have options and I somehow feel the west is the direction of new contacts. I don't thik this directly affects the Willie vs. Brennus strategy, but I'd like to see how the next 3-5 turns play out before we stop thinking of alternatives.
To summarize, I agree with Buce, but I'd like to see what Willie does with his settler pair for the next 2-3 turns before giving up on blue. I think the benefits of the cow are worth the risk
SimpleMonkey
King
I'm also going to have to look at the save for a long time an analyze the situation at hand. I agree that we're going to have to pull off something magnificent here, or at least just not totally boneheaded. I do agree with not giving up on the cow just yet. But don't for a second think that the AI won't drop a city down on top of a cow. They will.
Also, I'll have to get a better grasp on what the loopy Irish to the north are capable of. We're in good shape if he's not building his high-speed swords. Surviving him seems quite doable.
I'll take a look at things and let you all know what I'm thinking for my 10. To be played sometime Saturday, I think.
Also, I'll have to get a better grasp on what the loopy Irish to the north are capable of. We're in good shape if he's not building his high-speed swords. Surviving him seems quite doable.
I'll take a look at things and let you all know what I'm thinking for my 10. To be played sometime Saturday, I think.
SimpleMonkey
King
I think this is going to be briefer than my usual reports. Buce and Phaedo have quite accurately assessed our situation. We've had some great luck (iron within our territory when we only have 2 cities, plus Celt neighbors who have no iron), and some bad (see previous posts). I'm going to play out these turns to see how quickly we can put Operation Irish Spring into effect. (Since we're counting on Brennus to help relieve Willie of his surplus military, and since we'd also like to come out of this one feeling brisk and clean.)
IT Not much. Dutch warriors head west for no apparant reason. The settler moves away from the cow.
Turn 1 (2110BC) Worker finishes roading a mined BG and moves over to road another. Once that's done he'll be in the right position to go hook up our silks. None of our three neighbors is willing to sell us a thing. Play hide and seek with the settler,and move ours toward the goal.
IT The settler moves south, away from the cow.
Turn 2 (2070BC) See above.
IT Willie moves his warriors around for no real reason I can see. Settler continues on down the coast. Maybe he knows of an oil deposit down in the tundra.
Turn 3 (2030BC) Luck holds for now. Continue to move our own settler into place. Osaka grows and I move the iron guard into his city apartment, rather than turn on the beer taps. Figure that if we're in that much trouble that we need to guard our iron before it's hooked up, we're likely not going to be living long enough to collect Social Security.
That's five Dutch axemen in our neighborhood, by the way. If Willie's going to get froggish, he's going to do it this turn or the next.
IT The Dutch invasion disappears -- the mystery axemen head back east.
Turn 4 (1990BC) Willie must have met someone rich, as his treasury has suddenly jumped to 191g.
Oh, and Blue Dot may now be renamed Tokyo.
I move our hide and seek warrior east to see if we can map out some more of Willie's territory. Might as well see how he's fixing things up for us.
Turn 5 (1950BC) More fog-busting. Move worker over to road the silks. Rax complete next turn.
IT
Turn 6 (1910BC) Had to think about whether to chop first or road. Realize that if we chop in 4 then the shields will hit just as the archer completes, rather than as we start on the next one. Decide to road in 6 instead.
IT
Turn 7 (1870BC) Celts are now the rich boys, suddenly at 206g. We need to get invited to more parties.
Willie is at only 6 cities, Murray has 7, and Brennus has 8.
IT
I think I missed a turn here when nothing was happening.
Turn 9 (1790) Tokyo finishes its MP warrior and starts on a worker. We start mining for iron. As soon as the next archer finishes, I'm going to pop out more warriors for upgrades. In fact, I change production in Osaka from an archer to a warrior to finish in the next turn.
IT See above.
Turn 10 (1750BC) Kyoto is currently putting out 7 shields per turn. Is it better to have a 2 turn warrior with 4 wasted shields, or an archer in 3 with only 1 shield flushed? I'll go with choice 2. The next best player can switch over to a warrior or a spear if that seems the wiser choice.
Okay, I think that we're on track with Operation Irish Spring so far. Our military might is now 6 warriors, and 2 archers. The iron will be hooked up in 5, and then our work crews are going to have to start making some serious roads with a quickness. Our spy in the Netherlands has so far avoided the boot, due to some gaps in Willie's culture expansion. It looks like taking Horsetown and then the next village over will also net us some furs for the winter.
Here's a pic of Japan today.
And here's the >>SAVE<<
EDIT -- And I believe that the tusker now has his turn at the command chair.
IT Not much. Dutch warriors head west for no apparant reason. The settler moves away from the cow.
Turn 1 (2110BC) Worker finishes roading a mined BG and moves over to road another. Once that's done he'll be in the right position to go hook up our silks. None of our three neighbors is willing to sell us a thing. Play hide and seek with the settler,and move ours toward the goal.
IT The settler moves south, away from the cow.
Turn 2 (2070BC) See above.
IT Willie moves his warriors around for no real reason I can see. Settler continues on down the coast. Maybe he knows of an oil deposit down in the tundra.
Turn 3 (2030BC) Luck holds for now. Continue to move our own settler into place. Osaka grows and I move the iron guard into his city apartment, rather than turn on the beer taps. Figure that if we're in that much trouble that we need to guard our iron before it's hooked up, we're likely not going to be living long enough to collect Social Security.
That's five Dutch axemen in our neighborhood, by the way. If Willie's going to get froggish, he's going to do it this turn or the next.
IT The Dutch invasion disappears -- the mystery axemen head back east.
Turn 4 (1990BC) Willie must have met someone rich, as his treasury has suddenly jumped to 191g.
Oh, and Blue Dot may now be renamed Tokyo.
I move our hide and seek warrior east to see if we can map out some more of Willie's territory. Might as well see how he's fixing things up for us.
Turn 5 (1950BC) More fog-busting. Move worker over to road the silks. Rax complete next turn.
IT
Turn 6 (1910BC) Had to think about whether to chop first or road. Realize that if we chop in 4 then the shields will hit just as the archer completes, rather than as we start on the next one. Decide to road in 6 instead.
IT
Turn 7 (1870BC) Celts are now the rich boys, suddenly at 206g. We need to get invited to more parties.
Willie is at only 6 cities, Murray has 7, and Brennus has 8.
IT
I think I missed a turn here when nothing was happening.
Turn 9 (1790) Tokyo finishes its MP warrior and starts on a worker. We start mining for iron. As soon as the next archer finishes, I'm going to pop out more warriors for upgrades. In fact, I change production in Osaka from an archer to a warrior to finish in the next turn.
IT See above.
Turn 10 (1750BC) Kyoto is currently putting out 7 shields per turn. Is it better to have a 2 turn warrior with 4 wasted shields, or an archer in 3 with only 1 shield flushed? I'll go with choice 2. The next best player can switch over to a warrior or a spear if that seems the wiser choice.
Okay, I think that we're on track with Operation Irish Spring so far. Our military might is now 6 warriors, and 2 archers. The iron will be hooked up in 5, and then our work crews are going to have to start making some serious roads with a quickness. Our spy in the Netherlands has so far avoided the boot, due to some gaps in Willie's culture expansion. It looks like taking Horsetown and then the next village over will also net us some furs for the winter.
Here's a pic of Japan today.
And here's the >>SAVE<<
EDIT -- And I believe that the tusker now has his turn at the command chair.
Phaedo
Emperor
Good work Simp! Getting Tokyo down is awfully nice. I didn't know if we could do it but I'm really happy it worked out. Should we go for red too or just keep pumping out warriors?
Phaedo
Bucephalus
Elephantium On Deck
Simple MonkeyUP
Smart
Phaedo
Bucephalus
Elephantium On Deck
Simple MonkeyUP
Smart
Elephantium
Trampling the AI
Got it. I'll play tomorrow.
I think settling on red would be really helpful...if we can spare the 2-3 archers that it will cost us during my turnset and the next. War with the Dutch is not going to be easy.
I think settling on red would be really helpful...if we can spare the 2-3 archers that it will cost us during my turnset and the next. War with the Dutch is not going to be easy.
Phaedo
Emperor
Sorry, I wasn't thinking ver clearly this morning. As we are taking 20 turns this set, Simp has another 10 to play. That was just his mid-set post. A lot can happen in 20 turns so posting after 10 is best.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Great news about Tokyo - well done Phaedo & SM for not giving up on 'blue dot'. That puts us in a much better position.
SimpleMonkey
King
I can play another 10. I just figured that since these turns are pretty crucial, we should all have input. I'll finish up today, unless Elephantium would like to step in.
EDIT: What's our vote about sparing another settler for Red Dot? I think we should go for it, if for no other reason than that we need to have a fourth city to be able to build an army. Closing off the borders would be nice, too. We should wait until Kyoto is big enough to not drop down to pop1, though.
EDIT: What's our vote about sparing another settler for Red Dot? I think we should go for it, if for no other reason than that we need to have a fourth city to be able to build an army. Closing off the borders would be nice, too. We should wait until Kyoto is big enough to not drop down to pop1, though.
Phaedo
Emperor
That was absolutly the right decesion
. Thank you for that
. I'd like Tusker and Smart to do the same thing. Of course pause if something critical happens but even if things seem to be running smoothly, please post the log after 10
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I'd say that is sound thinking; however, wouldn't Tokyo be a better choice to provide the Settler? If we irrigate the beef it will grow every 5 turns, even without a granary.
SimpleMonkey
King
Getting water to our Tokyo cow will take a chop and two irrigations, plus at least two roads. Not to say that we shouldn't do it, but it's going to take some time. Once we do have those improvements in place, chopping for a cheaper granary, we could theoretically turn Tokyo into a six-turn SF.
Here are my thoughts on our future roading, as well as dot placement. I can see that in my map I put Red Dot 1NW of where Buce did. Now that I've looked at it, I prefer his. But I believe that the rest work. Comments?
Here are my thoughts on our future roading, as well as dot placement. I can see that in my map I put Red Dot 1NW of where Buce did. Now that I've looked at it, I prefer his. But I believe that the rest work. Comments?
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I would prefer to see yellow dot moved 1 NW to other side of the river. We don't particularly have a need for a coastal town - Tokyo will adequately supply all our future naval needs - and going cxxc would seem preferable for a city 2 removed from the Capital. A lot of the strategy for this game will revolve around our ability to generate gold, which requires a lot of good land being worked.
The other placements work for me, though. Nice work.
The other placements work for me, though. Nice work.
Elephantium
Trampling the AI
Oh, right. Okay, then I do NOT have it, I'll wait on the rest of SM's turns
Edit: What does everyone think of this pattern? We'll get a coastal city to work sea squares with the harbor benefit, plus another city on the river at CxxC from Osaka. The only downside I can think of is the CxCxC pattern on the river near the Dutch horses.
Phaedo
Emperor
I prefer moving yellow but I'd like to keep it at CxxC for a bit. 1 W on the hill wouldn't wastes and river squares and it would ge a BG in there as well. 1SW would lose a river but pick up a BG. The hill location is probably my preference. If we moverd yellow 1 NW then I'd want to move blue and that would move it off the river
The rest looks great
The rest looks great
SimpleMonkey
King
Actually, I have it not. I gotta play out Apocalypse and then do other household duties. Sorry. Elephantium has it after all.
I'd still rather make the hypothetical yellow dot a coastal city, just so it can do something with those coastal tiles someday. But I'll defer to the clan leader.
I'd still rather make the hypothetical yellow dot a coastal city, just so it can do something with those coastal tiles someday. But I'll defer to the clan leader.
