Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[Aabraxan]

The quotes that Salarakas included were from two different games -- one as the Chinese, one as the Romans. Believe it or not, I have CivAssist II. I just wasn't monitoring my cities close enough, a problem that I (mostly) corrected before beginning as the Romans, I guess. Thanks for the info on rioting though, Salarakas. I wasn't sure if an even split on happy vs. unhappy rioted or not.

Of the civs currently on the table, I'd have to lean towards France or Rome. (I was going to vote for the Ottmans or the Romans, but D'Artagnan snuck in another choice while I was writing this). Anyway, here's why:

Rome: In spite of the early UU, I think this might not be a bad choice. While I'm certainly not opposed to militaristic, I think the key to Rome is the commercial trait. Lower corruption will help a larger % of our empire be productive, especially in the cities sort of a middle distance from our capitol. The real hinterlands will still be hopelessly corrupt, but you can't save 'em all. I don't really care about the Legionary's extra defensive point, because I don't really plan on defending much. I'd rather be on the offensive. That said, Legionaries reguire iron, and if we slingshot republic, we might be able to stall our GA until late AA or early MA.

Ottomans: A very powerful UU that replaces cavs. That puts our GA in the early IA, assuming it's triggerred by the UU and not a Wonder. I haven't played scientific much, so I can't really say how useful I think it is. I played Sumeria (scientific) in my very first (Chieftain) game, but I don't really think I learned much from that except for what some of the shiny little buttons did. Industrious is nice, but given the smaller number of content citizens that you get on Emperor, shouldn't we be churning out more workers and settlers, anyway?

Russians: Do we really want expansionist? Having a scout is nice, but once we pop the available goodie huts, how does it benefit us? The Cossack, like the Legionary, has an extra defensive point (not that interesting) and replaces cav (GA in the IA). The extra attack that Salarakas mentioned, however, is very interesting.

Mongols: Not so interested. Keshiks have an extra movement point, but so do riders and ansar warriors. If we want to replace Knights to shoot for an early MA GA, let's go with one of those. Of the two, I'd prefer Chinese because ot the trait combinations: Chinese (industrious and militaristic) vs. Arabs (religious and expansionist). I think the Chinese are better suited to conquest, not sure about domination.

France -- Great looking trait combination. I've never played France and I question the UU, but that may be a matter of inexperience on my part. That said, I think the trait combination overwhelms any reservations I may have about musketeers.

Given our landmass & victory conditions, I'd say stay away from seafaring generally.

BTW, as to victory conditions, I'd say leave them all on, but just go for conquest or domination. Won't that give the AI other conditions by which it could beat us? If so, I'd say give it that chance.

 

[Salarakas]

Ottomans: A very powerful UU that replaces cavs. That puts our GA in the early IA,assuming it's triggerred by the UU and not a Wonder.

Not really. We would probably first research chivalry for knights and then go full speed towards military tradition which would be the ninth middle age tech. We would then have at least seven middle each techs left before the industrial age.

I haven't played scientific much, so I can't really say how useful I think it is.

1. It gives you a free tech when entering a new age. Not really a game deciding thing but getting techs like feudalism (medieval infantry and pikemen), steam power (coal and railroads) and computers (mech infantry) for free is pretty cool.
2. We'll probably want to build libraries in all our core cities. 40 shields instead of 80 is a big difference. That makes them the second cheapest culture buildings in the game too (30 shield temples for religious civs). Temples, however, are pretty much useless in normal games so I'd much rather have a cheap and very useful building than a 25% cheaper and almost useless one.

 

[Allanc]

if theres still an open spot for this ill be up for joining in.

I really have to much time on my hands.......

 

[Phaedo]

Sure Allanc. I think there is room for one more.

In reference to the civ discussion, I really love France and play them often. D'art's playing them now in his SG. The super musket and speedy workers are nice eh? I've never played the Ottomans which is why I went for them but after looking at everything that was said and thinking about it, I'm leaning towards Russia. That industrious trait is Sooooo useful that maybe it is a crutch we shouldn't use (I know you're not all that confident about this level Abra but we have some good players and there ought to be some good discussion so don't worry).

We could proabably spend weeks talking about the relative value of civs. So we have five players now so there won't be a tie. Let's vote Russia or France.
What say you all?

My vote is for Russia. We set up a Czar, later have our Bolshivek revolution and crush all our imperialist enemies

P.S. I'll roll starts for both so either will be ready when the results are in

 

[Phaedo]

I've rolled the starts so we are ready to go once we decide on a civ. Both Lennin and Jean Baptiste are waiting for our leadership.

I've never used photobucket before to upload images. Are there any tricks I should know?

Oh yea, I almost forgot. What time zones is everyone in? It would be good to know for the roster. Just include it with your vote. I'm GMT +9

 

[Aabraxan]

Allanc, welcome aboard.

If France & Russia are my two choices, I still prefer France. That said, if everyone else wants to play Russia, then Russia it is. For that matter, if all other votes come back Ottomans, I'm good with that, too. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Phaedo, thanks for rolling the starts. Did you do 6 for each?

I'm in the U.S.A., central time zone (GMT -6, I think).

 

[Phaedo]

I did 6 for Russia and 6 for France as It seemed that Sal was leaning more towards Russia and I followed after some thought (I dropped the Ottomans because I had originally suggested it). They are the first 6 that came up so it is as random as the game can get.

Standard Map 70% H2O
Restless Barbs
Normal, temperate and 4 Billion
Average agression

Edit: I just realized that I left all victory conditions on. If we ae going for domination, maybe I should have disabled conquest as we might hit that before we have rid the wold of our enemies

I have no problem playing France and I kind of like te idea of Quebec taking over the world although I feel Russia would be more challenging and beacuse I have seen the starts, I don't want to be subconsiously influenced by what I saw.

That said I am fully happy with whatever the team wants

 

[Salarakas]

1. Hi Allanc, welcome aboard! Could you please tell us your skill level and how long you've played the game?

2. I'm from Europe so GMT is pretty close to the truth for me.

3. Russia vs France: France has better traits in my opinion as expansionist isn't that great but I'd much rather have an offensive unique unit. And I doubt anyone plays the Russians that often so it should be an interesting choice for us all. So my vote goes for Russia.

4. My suggestions concerning the victory conditions. Leave these on:
-domination
-space race
-diplomatic
-conquest
-cultural
-preserve random seed (important!)
-allow cultural conversions (allows cities to flip)

Disabling any of the "normal" victory conditions only makes it harder for the AI to win and therefore we should keep them on. It also forces us to worry about not reaching e.g. conquest before hitting the domination level or vice versa. Adds a bit more flavour to the game

Everything else off, including culturally linked starting locations (adds a bit more randomness to the game), respawn AI players (nobody keeps this on in succession games) and allow scientific leaders (luck would play such a big part as getting an SGL basically means a free wonder).

 

[Phaedo]

Fair enough. My rolls left the great leader onbut you are absolutely right. I'll turn it off and re-roll. I think France is stronger too; hence my vote goes to the Russians

That gives Russia: 2
France: 1

Still waiting for D'art and All. I thought i saw that D'art was in North America and we don't know All's time zone. If we go from the international time zone east, it would give people a little more time to move and look at the save and respond. If two people are in the same time zone they should be split up though.

I'm glad I said patience was required in the Thread title . Still, we are almost ready to see some starts and decide what to do

 

[Phaedo]

Fair enough. My rolls left the great leader on but you are absolutely right. I'll turn it off and re-roll. I think France is stronger too; hence my vote goes to the Russians

That gives Russia: 2
France: 1

Still waiting for D'art and Al. I thought i saw that D'art was in North America and we don't know All's time zone. Assuming most of us will play in the evenings, if we go from the international time zone east, it would give people a little more time to move and look at the save and respond. If two people are in the same time zone they should be split up though.

I'm glad I said patience was required in the Thread title . Still, we are almost ready to see some starts and decide what to do

 

[Phaedo]

Fair enough. My rolls left the great leader on but you are absolutely right. I'll turn it off and re-roll. I think France is stronger too; hence my vote goes to the Russians

That gives Russia: 2
France: 1

Still waiting for D'art and Al. I thought i saw that D'art was in North America and we don't know Al's time zone. Assuming most of us will play in the evenings, if we go from the international time zone east, it would give people a little more time to move and look at the save and respond. If two people are in the same time zone, I'm thinking they should be split up.

I'm glad I said patience was required in the Thread title . Still, we are almost ready to see some starts and decide what to do

Just for some food for thought:
If we are planning to be warmongering, I am assuming we will want Monarchy and then Communism for governments eh? Any thoughts on going 0 tech vs. burning for Phil?

 

[Phaedo]

Ooops. Sorry about all those posts. Connection issues

 

[Allanc]

Well i play around Emperor level and can usually win unless theres a catastrophic start. and ive been playing civ since civ 2.
I live in England so im on GMT.

as for civs, my vote goes to Russia. Expansionist isnt nearly as bad as it sounds, early contacts= early trades=easyer tech lead
Besides I just played a game with France.

 

[Aabraxan]

That's a majority for Russia.

As for governments, I've done all of my warmongering in Republic, though I'd be happy to try monarchy. My usual tactic in the science arena has been to beeline the republic slingshot and use monopoly techs for trade along the way. (And, of course, trade peace for techs and gold). Get into Republic as fast as possible and then pick up the other non-optional techs to get me on the way to knights.

Then again, maybe I've been too gung-ho about getting into Republic. . .

 

[D'Artagnan59]

I voted France, but Russia it is.

I live in the East Coast U.S., so I'm U.S. Eastern.

 

[Phaedo]

OK. I rolled the starts but I don't have time to upload the images now. I'll do it after work (in about 10 hours). They provide some interesting challenges.

 

[Phaedo]

Here are the 1st 4 starts

 

[Phaedo]

And here are the last 2

 

[Phaedo]

This one doesn't seem tooooo bad. We're on a river, there's some sugar near and it looks like there some H2O to the east. No a lot of food for quick growth which I don't like

This one just looks downright ugly. Although after some careful looking. I think there may be some water to the east just out of view.

This Guy looks interesting. There's H2o, grass, flood plains, forests and a hill around. There's also that river delta to the west indicating ocean.

Lot's of grass and some hills with the river but there are no early indications of the sea and I don't like the look of the jungles to the south

the ocean and a varied mix of plains nd grass. Nothing special that I can see though.

I'm not sure how to judge this one. The mountains definately suck but there look to be rivers both east and west so subsequent cities could grow big. Game is near and it looks like it might be plains and hills to the east.


I guess I think 1 and 3 are strongest but I am tempted by 6

 

[Aabraxan]

I like 1 and 6, with an honorable mention to 4.

Start 1 — I don't care for the flood plains right there at our settler's back, but one step SE leaves you on the river, and keeps both sugars in the 9-tile square. There's water on the eastern edge, but I don't see any delta from that river. Not sure what to make of that.

Start 6 – I think the game nearby outweighs the mountains. Game will provide early growth without requiring the exttra citizen that the sugar in #1 will. OTOH, the sugar in #1 will add commerce. Two visible BGs. With that many mountains, hopefully one will have iron.

Start 4 – Three BGs and a river. Doesn't rubber show up in the jungle? A consideration for later. The downside is that the minimap indicates that we could be right in the middle of the continent and defense could be tricky.