Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[Phaedo]

That's impressive!
I guess the city on the grass obviously has greater shield potential as a producer. Spot #2 would take more worker turns to develop but that's probably not a great factor when we are comparing end points.
Thanks for the work

 

[Aabraxan]

Phaedo's right. That is impressive. I can look at cities and get a general idea of what I can do with them, but this sort of tile-by-tile analysis is what I've really got to start doing. The place I get really tripped up in calculating settler factories is where you've got the first extra pop, but not the second or the shields. It's not that I can't do the math, I've just got to take the time.

I've never played for points and have no clue how they're calculated. For me thus far, it's been a win-or-lose game. Either I stomp my opponents or I don't.

I think we need to look hard at when we make the change into Republic. I started a thread in Strategy and Tips the other day on when to make the change because I thought I was making the change too early. Most of the responders said they change as soon as possible. It's a decision that's down the road, but one that will need to be considered.

Finally (for now), I have to agree that a rush on the Dutch right now would be premature. We still have plenty of time to make war. Let's expand and trade for a while.

 

[Aabraxan]

By the way, I'll be out of pocket and probably without internet access October 11 & 12.

 

[Twixmeistah]

War:

I'd say no to this. We have no reason to go to war until there's no more land to fill with settlers. Quick expansion with small troop count is what we should aim for. Once we have run out of space we should build enough troops to feel comfortable going to war and then strike the closest AI which seems to be the Dutch.

I agree with Salarakas on the war aspect. I think we shouldn't try to eliminate the Dutch ASAP. They are relatively far away (with a desert and jungle in between) and they are very useful for some tech trading. So it will only advantage us if they are kept alive somewhat longer. We only need them gone when our empire needs breathing space.

City Placement:
Phaedo's dotmap is actually pretty perfect (the resources are accumulated nicely). I think that all the locations are worthy of having a city and that it doesn't really matter if they're CxxC or CxxxC. It's more important that the available resources are exploited the best way we can. If a city should then move one tile further than planned it's okay with me.
From my point of view, the only thing we have to discuss is in which order we are adding them cities on the dotmaps. The yellow dot doesn't have the priority because we're not going to war pretty soon I reckon. That's why another settler pump is more important. My order would be:
1) blue 2) red 3) light green 4) yellow 5) pink 6) white

Build order:
Warriors are necessary at the moment. We've learnt from the other games that the Dutch, and probably barbarians aren't far away. We should defend ourselves. The next priority is a granary: I'd like to have a settler pump up ASAP. So would it be a good idea to first make 2 warriors and then do the granary, or should we make a settler in the meanwhile? Another scout isn't needed I think, because I don't think our continent is that big that it's necessary to have 3 scouts working on it. Our northern scout needs to scout the dark areas northwest of Moscow and after that into the darkness to the south.

Research:
I have agreed to do the Republic Slingshot, but if it has the downside that military research is behind. We won't have better military units than the Dutch (we can only trade it from them), so that could be a problem. One thing is certain: we should either fully go towards the slingshot or not at all. It doesn't make sense to first develop IW and then start the slingshot. That would be too late. Anyway, we should just vote on this one. Mine is in favor of RS.

Worker Moves:
Our worker should of course finish the mine and thereafter a road. Then he should move towards the wine NE of Moscow and improve that tile. This would be better than the wine N because this way the road could be used as a part of the road towards the blue dot already (our second town hopefully).

Sal's Analysis
Does your analysis state that we haven't decided on which game to play? If yes, I have moved my settler towards the grassy spot, so that we could make another city profit from the food bonus of the wines. So, your comparison is not totally honest, for this city will take quite a lot shields and food away from Moscow. (Or did I miss the point completely here?)

 

[Salarakas]

The point of my analysis was basically just to compare the two spots that our players had chosen for Moscow. If we are planning on building a wonder or two we are obviously going to use our best city and make it produce the max amount of shields possible even if it takes something away from other cities.

We are probably going to consider at least two wonders early on - the great library and sun tzu's art of war. I think we can do without the GL as the area around us is so good but sun tzu's could come in handy now that we have agreed to play aggressively. Leonardo's workshop could be useful too (although personally I'm not that big a fan) and later the theory of gravity and hoover's dam.


-city placement: it has been a very long time since I last used anything but CxxC in a normal game. I can go with your suggestions but CxxC could be better

-I'd prefer to get another city and a couple of good units (archers, spearmen) before starting the granary

-I'm not sure but we haven't discovered warrior code yet have we? If not I'd say we definately need it. If we have no attackers we'll be in trouble with the pillaging barbarians. Either research it ourselves (shouldn't take long) or trade it with someone fast. After that we can go for the slingshot if that's what you guys want.

 

[Aabraxan]

OK. Here's mine:

City Placement:
If we go CxxxC, I think Phaedo's map is the way to go, but I'd settle the red first. I think the blue wheat is too far to go for our second city. Second is blue. Blue begins working development in the direction of all of that ivory. Very important to my mind. Third, yellow, grabs most of the remaining riverbank in the area, as well as begins to form a cultural boundary across the peninsula.

If we go CxxC, I've created a dotmap to show where I think we should go. I'd go red, blue, yellow, green.

Research:
I think we should go slingshot right now, and trade for the rest. That said, I may be the only one comfortable with not researching the war techs when we're going to warmonger. Or perhaps the only one foolish enough to think this is a good idea. At any rate, I do think we can trade for them. I also think that any sidetrack puts us in danger of having a great philosophy department, but no republic. If you all want to pull in a war tech before we really embark on the slingshot, though, my vote goes for warrior code. (No, I don't think we have that yet.)

Worker Moves:
Finish mining and roading the tile he's on, go north to the wines. Irrigate, then road those. Beyond that, I don't know.

Build Orders:
Finish the scout. Build a couple of units, archers or warriors, maybe a settler (depending on growth) before starting the granary.

Long-term plans:
Gameplay: Plan another 10-turn set of individual rounds and compare. Then let's start the regular SG format.
Wonders: SoZ would be nice & we know where the ivory is. Leonardo's Workshop would also be nice. Sun Tzu's would be nicer.

Edit: Dotmap deleted.

 

[Salarakas]

One thing about the Dutch is that their unique unit (1/4/1 cheap pikeman replacement) is a tough nut to crack without a lot of catapults. We definately want to hurt them before they get to the middle ages. We shouldn't rush into war but we shouldn't linger too long either.

You're right about the statue of Zeus, I hadn't thought about it. I'd say we definately want it more than the great library and Leonardo's workshop as ancient cavalry is deadly when used properly. It's a relatively cheap wonder too.

Aabraxan: I'm sorry but I don't think your dot map is all that great to be honest. Some important things to consider with CxxC are:
1. Place the cities so that there's 2 tiles between the new city and at least 2 other cities. Having just one city to shuffle troops from is risky. This is especially important near the enemy frontlines and the coast where we have to watch out for landings. In your picture there's 3 tiles between the green and the yellow and the green and the blue.

2. Placing cities one tile from the coast is never a great idea. That can happen in AW games but in the beginning we have lots of possible places for the cities.

3. Minimizing the amount of wasted resources is important. However, losing one shield from settling on top of a bonus grassland is still better than placing the city in an awkward position.

4. Settling on top of hills is always nice near the frontlines for the defence bonus. I'm assuming you placed the yellow dot there because of this. However, I don't think that town is going to be a frontline town so I would definately move the dot 1NE.

Then again, making a dot map was a lot easier, I think, from the our other starts where Moscow was founded on the grassland spot and not the hill. If it's not too late I'd ever consider using Twix's start for that reason. Getting three cities along the river in CxxC formation is very important in my opinion.

 

[Salarakas]

We also need mathematics for the statue of Zeus. The more I think about it the less I like about the slingshot. We'd have to delay a lot of things just to get one free tech. Warrior code, iron working, possibly the wheel, mathematics (for catapults and SoZ) are more important to us than getting the republic early on in the game.

 

[Phaedo]

I'm not a big fan of the republic slingshot in this game myself.
Reasons:

1. We are going to want to go to war in the Ancient age. I think this will mean we will have to focus a lot on military builds and less on city improvements, meaning an early republic change could be costly and seriously hurt us (I guess I'm thinking primarily about research).
2. If we wait for the gambit to play it's course, we will have to hold off on many desired techs and let our close opponents get their defenses up and thus necessitate a larger army, taking away more time from improvements and research. The sooner our forces are at attack strength, the sooner we can focus on other things while maintaining reinforcments (in theory at least).
3. What do we get out of republic? Lower corruption, therefore better science (but only if we have improvements), more money (but much greater unit upkeep) and we would lose the irrigation penality (this could be big).

The question isn't really if we want republic, it is a question of when. I think the corruption is a mixed blessing if we are funding a large army. Losing the irrigation penality is big but we do have a lot of workable land.

I am not at all a warmonger by nature so I really don't have a lot of experience here. As I tend to be a bit of a peacenik I like expanding as much as possible (hence my penchant for CxxxC). However, looking at my reasons against the republic jump, I can see why CxxC could be really helpful and delay the need for rebublic and let us accomplish our short term goals (namely the defeat of the Dutch) earlier.

I have always traditionally gone for CxxxC in the core but the point of this is to learn so I'm not married to the idea. You obviously have a strong preference for CxxC Sal, could you give us your reasons? If you have time, maybe you could make a dot map for Twix's save and we could compare and decide.

As for ToZ, I'm all for it. We have ivory and those Ancient Calvary are tough for a long time. We could focus on Swords, Cats and Spears and have our mobile forces pumping out for 0 shields. With some slaves, we could have the majority of our military budget devoted to our army and have shields for a bigger army/ wonders/ needed improvements.

 

[Phaedo]

Oh yea, I would like math sooner than later as I do love those cats even if we decide not to go for ToZ.
How can you not like cats? You don't need barracks to build them effectively, They're hit or miss but (with 2 or 3) they always reduce your opponents without risk to themeselves thereby reducing your overall losses and they never have to heal. Moreover, they can be upgraded forever so the shields they cost are NEVER wasted.

 

[Aabraxan]

Aabraxan: I'm sorry but I don't think your dot map is all that great to be honest.

Don't be. I'm not too thrilled with it myself. I was not thrilled with it last night, and I'm even less thrilled after having slept on the idea. Scrap it.

Also, thinking about wonders . . . The more I think about it, the more I think we should give serious consideration to SoZ. Ancient Cavalry is nothing to sneeze at. Until we get The Wheel, we won't know where horses are. In the event we don't have any nearby, SoZ could be a real lifesaver.

I've never used catapults much, but that's because I get impatient with them. (I get tired of waiting for them to arrive and frequently wind up taking cities before they do.) I still think we can trade for math, but I am in favor of building cats. I need to learn to use them and we've got good terrain for them.


What's the story on the roster? Are we going to open it up? I know D'Art was ill and am all in favor of allowing him back in, btw.

 

[Salarakas]

Phaedo: I'm sure there are many threads about CxxC in the strategy forums. I guess the most obvious plus points are that it's easier to defend cities, your (distance) corruption is slightly lower and you can utilize all the tiles quicker as you don't have to wait for your cities to grow big and get border expansions. Basically, once you use it for a few games anything else feels very weird

I made a quick dotmap for Twix's save using CxxC. I had to use some bonus grassland tiles and a couple of forests go to waste but I think it's still pretty decent.

 

[Twixmeistah]

Why are we so stuck to the thought that we need either a CxxxC or a CxxC? Isn't is possible to make a combination of those, possibly to use some resouces more effectively. Or is there a giant downside to this idea that I have overlooked?

I think my game is not good enough to continue with: No WC and the loss of a scout does some serious pains. Although the location of Moscow is better, Phaedo's game has more advantages IMHO.

I'm not that a fan of wonders though, especially for learning purpose wonders aren't really that suitable. I read a nice article on this on the main site. Though, I must say the advantages of the wonders you pointed out (Sun Tzu's + SoZ + GL) are almost too good to not build.
(BTW: SoZ = ToZ?)

The Dutch should be taken care of before the aquire their UU and after we have put up a decent empire and fighting force. Do we set a certain year or event at which we'll attack them Dutch scumbags () or do we wait and attack just when we feel it's okay.

Another thing: We can't first research a War tech and afterwards try the Republic Slingshot. That way it will 95% be certain that we're nog gonna get them gov for free. So, I say "Yes" or "No", but not "Yes, but later on".

 

[Phaedo]

Sorry, I keep thinking it's a temple and not a statue. ToZ is just my
mistake

Personally from the stuff that I have read, the CxxC vs CxxxC thing seemed like a style issue more than anything. Of course I could be missing something . It seemed to me that the issue is one of corruption. At a certain point any new city gets corrupt and basically only useful for a specialist farm. CxxC would get a couple more cities into the core. Sal's map gets 6 cities in the first ring where mine gets 5. It seems my cities have the potential to grow a bit bigger and are planted next to bonuses so they get used right away, Sal's would require a culture pop to get the weastern and northern wheat (or another city build). His would also use 4 cities to connect the ivory, where mine would use 3.

I have thought that CxxC or CxxxC were more rules of thumb and that utilizing
resources was more important. I think my dot map was a mix that you were talking about Twix. I think you could move my yellow up a square and plop another city NNW of the bananas and get the CxxC on the southern border. Another city W of the bananas could be a nice defensive city.

With Sal's, we would have more unit support and use more of the core tiles sooner. Those extra used tiles could add up over time. OTOH, we have lots of
good land so we have lots of tiles to work.

As I have said, city placement isn't really my strength. The collary to that is
that I don't see the subtle differencees well so I don't have strong feelings for choosing one map over the other.

As for research, I don't mind that we went for alphabet as I really like the boats but I think researching war techs will get our marmongering up and running faster.

I think D'art is welcome back if he wants in.

At any rate, we have some decesions to make. Which save are we going to use, what are going to research and what are we going to build?

 

[D'Artagnan59]

OK. Feeling better.

 

[Phaedo]

Welcome back to the land of the living

 

[Phaedo]

OK so, as we have a nice odd number to ensure no ties, let's put it to a vote.

1. Twix's save or Phaedo's?
2. Republic sling or war research?

That should get us started. Once we have agreed on a save, we should vote on our first city placement. Before we get too complicated, we should just focus on our next city. There are lots of choices in the dot maps and we only need consesus on the first one at this point.

As we will all be playing the next 10 turns, we don't relly need a roster yet, but I was thinking of this when the time comes:

1. Salarakas
2. Aabraxan
3. Twixmeistah
4. Phaedo
5. D'Artagnan59

I won't be able to play this weekend but I can probably post

 

[Salarakas]

1. Let's go with Phaedo's save then as we've talked much more about it than Twix's
2. I'd definately go with war research and forget about the slingshot

As for the next city... we need a city that can pump out military as we'll be using the capital mostly for settlers early on. I'd go with the one that can use the capital's wines if they are free and has access to the wheat north of the mountain too.

 

[Aabraxan]

I'm not going to have much time to discuss before Saturday, but here's my $0.02.

1) Phaedo's -- Like Sal said, we've discussed it more.
2) I'm still for the Republic slingshot.

 

[Twixmeistah]

1) Phaedo's save will be best to continue with. The reasons are expressed quite a lot in the earlier posts.

2) We should go with War research. Republic isn't THAT important that we should sacrifice some of our military strength and adjust our entire economy for that cause.