Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required
- Thread starter Phaedo
- Start date
Twixmeistah
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2006
- Messages
- 34
I vote for Phaedo's game
His and my game are pretty equal, though the fact that he has more profitable things out of the GHs and that I lost a scout makes the difference for me. For me, our two games were the only options; Aab's game was not good enough (sorry
) and Sals' was way too good. 
I also feel that the format we use is right. I think we should play the next 10 turns a part as well, and compare afterwards. The only downside is that the pace of this SG will become very slow indeed. But we didn't sign up for a fast-paced game anyhow
.
His and my game are pretty equal, though the fact that he has more profitable things out of the GHs and that I lost a scout makes the difference for me. For me, our two games were the only options; Aab's game was not good enough (sorry
) and Sals' was way too good. I also feel that the format we use is right. I think we should play the next 10 turns a part as well, and compare afterwards. The only downside is that the pace of this SG will become very slow indeed. But we didn't sign up for a fast-paced game anyhow
.
Phaedo
Emperor
Spoiler :
. I just feel (like the rest of you) that he did too well.
Phaedo
Emperor
I like the format too. I also think there is value in continuing it for a while. I said in my last post that we shold continue it for one more turn set but a couple more would be fine with me.
My only worry is that as the game progresses, we may get spoiler info from people's turn sets we don't use. I suppose if we settle on a gameplan before we play this won't be too much of a problem and it may be out weighed by the benefit of comparative analysis.
What do you guys think?
My only worry is that as the game progresses, we may get spoiler info from people's turn sets we don't use. I suppose if we settle on a gameplan before we play this won't be too much of a problem and it may be out weighed by the benefit of comparative analysis.
What do you guys think?
Tribute
Not Sarcastic
Do you players see a possible settler factory? Say 'yes' if you think it would be a 5 turn one. I think you all can figure this out yourselves.
As for game picking, I'll lurk and leave it to you. So good luck!
As for game picking, I'll lurk and leave it to you. So good luck!
I think doing another 10 turns like this is OK but after that I'd prefer to go for the usual succession game thing. The opening turns aren't all that interesting (although very important!) and with this pace it will take ages before the fun part starts 
Yes indeed. I'd probably go for a 4 turn one (by using all the three wines) as we have a couple of wheats close by and could churn out workers from those cities if necessery. Other core cities could concentrate on building mostly troops. But it will take a while to get the factory going as we need a couple of cities first before I would start building the granary. If there were no barbarians I might start building the granary sooner but now I feel we need a couple of cities producing archers/spearmen too
Tribute said:
Yes indeed. I'd probably go for a 4 turn one (by using all the three wines) as we have a couple of wheats close by and could churn out workers from those cities if necessery. Other core cities could concentrate on building mostly troops. But it will take a while to get the factory going as we need a couple of cities first before I would start building the granary. If there were no barbarians I might start building the granary sooner but now I feel we need a couple of cities producing archers/spearmen too
Phaedo
Emperor
Well it looks like it is just the four of us. Off we go then.
What's next? I think there are a couple of things we should talk about.
First, what do we want to do with the Moscow build? Honestly, I'm torn. Part of me feels that we could use another scout (mostly because that first one is so far away in the north) but I think I'd go for the change to a warrior and get on a settler.
The worker is making a road (for the research benefit). what do we want to do with him once he finishes?
What do we want our scout movements to be? Obvoiusly the Northern scout is in a poor position. Should be boogie south asap or finish exploring the north (I think this is my preference as he is already there)?
In no particular order, here are some other topics we may want to discuss:
City placement. Here's a dot map with some thoughts on placement. It's based on Sal's map with some changes.
I didn't think Sal's second city was ideal but that's only because we know more and it's later in the game (I'd take and earlier city over the change of location any day
). The green dots are options. I like the light green dot over the dark green one myself.
This whole map has pretty wide spacing but I think it does a pretty good job of utilizing the resources we can see. I'd be inclined to settle the blue dot first for the wheat, but knowing the Dutch are south of us, I'd choose yellow to expand our borders and it would be a productive city for building military.
And other issues:
As we want to be warmongers, I guess quick rushing the Dutch is an option (sorry Twix but your brethren seem to be first on the death list
). I'm not at all good at early rushing so I don't have much input as to how it could be done but I can only see advantages of wiping out an opponent early.
We all went for Alph. Have we decided to try for some phil gambit or was that primarily for the dinghies? What kind of units do we want to develop for our attack force? When do we want to go to war and how do we want to go about the war? I assume the answers to these questions will affect our research choices.
Trading. I don't think we want to trade with only one civ. If something happens in the next ten turns, I suggest we trade as we see fit. There will be plenty of opportunuties to work on trading skills as the game progresses.
I guess that is all the things I can think of for the next 10 turns. However, it would be helpful to have an overall strategy for our game (mid to long range goals). If we plan to conquer the world, how do we plan to do it? Obviously we want a big military. I am happy with Republic as a government for quite a while (especially as I am in Commandobob's AW game which will give me practice with the Monarcy to Communism route). Do we want to be friendly, get what we can out of our neighbours and then declare war? Do we want to be agressive on the front end? How important is our reputatuion? Are there any conditions we want before we declare war? Do we want to try to stay ahead on research or overwhelm them with units(I'm thinking unit upkeep could cut into our research budget)?
What's next? I think there are a couple of things we should talk about.
First, what do we want to do with the Moscow build? Honestly, I'm torn. Part of me feels that we could use another scout (mostly because that first one is so far away in the north) but I think I'd go for the change to a warrior and get on a settler.
The worker is making a road (for the research benefit). what do we want to do with him once he finishes?
What do we want our scout movements to be? Obvoiusly the Northern scout is in a poor position. Should be boogie south asap or finish exploring the north (I think this is my preference as he is already there)?
In no particular order, here are some other topics we may want to discuss:
City placement. Here's a dot map with some thoughts on placement. It's based on Sal's map with some changes.
I didn't think Sal's second city was ideal but that's only because we know more and it's later in the game (I'd take and earlier city over the change of location any day
). The green dots are options. I like the light green dot over the dark green one myself.This whole map has pretty wide spacing but I think it does a pretty good job of utilizing the resources we can see. I'd be inclined to settle the blue dot first for the wheat, but knowing the Dutch are south of us, I'd choose yellow to expand our borders and it would be a productive city for building military.
And other issues:
As we want to be warmongers, I guess quick rushing the Dutch is an option (sorry Twix but your brethren seem to be first on the death list
). I'm not at all good at early rushing so I don't have much input as to how it could be done but I can only see advantages of wiping out an opponent early.We all went for Alph. Have we decided to try for some phil gambit or was that primarily for the dinghies? What kind of units do we want to develop for our attack force? When do we want to go to war and how do we want to go about the war? I assume the answers to these questions will affect our research choices.
Trading. I don't think we want to trade with only one civ. If something happens in the next ten turns, I suggest we trade as we see fit. There will be plenty of opportunuties to work on trading skills as the game progresses.
I guess that is all the things I can think of for the next 10 turns. However, it would be helpful to have an overall strategy for our game (mid to long range goals). If we plan to conquer the world, how do we plan to do it? Obviously we want a big military. I am happy with Republic as a government for quite a while (especially as I am in Commandobob's AW game which will give me practice with the Monarcy to Communism route). Do we want to be friendly, get what we can out of our neighbours and then declare war? Do we want to be agressive on the front end? How important is our reputatuion? Are there any conditions we want before we declare war? Do we want to try to stay ahead on research or overwhelm them with units(I'm thinking unit upkeep could cut into our research budget)?
I'll have to go back and take a look at your save before I can really discuss the build order. That said, I'd say leave the current scout in the north to finish exploring before moving him south to explore there. IIRC, and looking at Twix'sw analysis, we can have another scout built before Scout 1 makes it to the fog to the south.
Worker moves -- I'd say move him north to the wines and begin irrigation, then roading. Once he finishes the road he's on, he can move to the wines due N of Moscow in one move and begin on the next turn. If we're going to use Moscow as a settler pump, which seems pretty reasonable with three wines and a BG, we need to go ahead and get the wine tiles irrigated and roaded.
City spacing -- the dots laid out by Phaedo look pretty good for overall placement, but I think the yellow and white dots are one tile too far. If we're going to use Moscow as a settler pump, it'll be a while before it grows to size 8, which is what it needs to work all of its available tiles in a CxxC pattern. I'd also settle red instead of blue first. You still get a wheat, like blue, but settling red puts Moscow almost directly between the only known threat, the Dutch, and our fledgling city. I also think you can irrigate the wheat at red faster, but I'm not entirely sure about that.
Warmongering -- I guess we could make an early rush on the Dutch, but I'm not inclined to do so just yet. We're still very, very early in the game, and I think expansion should be first priority. Yes, I still want to warmonger, but let's not be stupid. The Dutch are currently first on our hit list -- actually, they're currently alone on our hit list. However, remember that they're researching something and generating gold. Let's trade with them while we fill the known territory to the north and reach for the ivory. If we want to early rush the Dutch, I'd still say we need 4-6 cities before we can safely do so.
Reputation -- I'd say it's golden. We can warmonger without destroying our ability to trade. The Dutch start with Alpha, and are seafaring, so it's likely they've got curraghs out and have either made contact or will do so soon. Let's trade and see if we can keep the AI's bank accounts empty.
Research -- I think we've pretty well decided to go republic slingshot. I suggest beelining philosophy and using any monopolies that we can pick up to trade for the "war techs."
Government -- Another issue to put on the table: I think we've pretty well decided to go Republic. I ran some CA2 tests on another game last night. The game is monarch, continents, iroquios, sharing a continent with the English, Dutch and Russians. I pulled off the Republic slingshot and shifted to Republic asap. Naturally, I lost gold initially due to unit support, but I've straightened most of that out. Anyway, it's now the very early middle ages, I'm about to get knights, I've got about half of my continent conquered, and just traded for monarchy. I looked at CA2 to see what the difference to my treasury would be if I went monarchy -- in Republic, I was at +7 gpt; if I were to go Monarchy, I'd have been at +50 gpt! My point is, I think I went into Republic way too early and we should consider our timing on the switch. Despotism will serve us well for a while for its unit support.
BTW, Twix, will we be seeing updates to your Irresistible Iroquois anytime soon?
Worker moves -- I'd say move him north to the wines and begin irrigation, then roading. Once he finishes the road he's on, he can move to the wines due N of Moscow in one move and begin on the next turn. If we're going to use Moscow as a settler pump, which seems pretty reasonable with three wines and a BG, we need to go ahead and get the wine tiles irrigated and roaded.
City spacing -- the dots laid out by Phaedo look pretty good for overall placement, but I think the yellow and white dots are one tile too far. If we're going to use Moscow as a settler pump, it'll be a while before it grows to size 8, which is what it needs to work all of its available tiles in a CxxC pattern. I'd also settle red instead of blue first. You still get a wheat, like blue, but settling red puts Moscow almost directly between the only known threat, the Dutch, and our fledgling city. I also think you can irrigate the wheat at red faster, but I'm not entirely sure about that.
Warmongering -- I guess we could make an early rush on the Dutch, but I'm not inclined to do so just yet. We're still very, very early in the game, and I think expansion should be first priority. Yes, I still want to warmonger, but let's not be stupid. The Dutch are currently first on our hit list -- actually, they're currently alone on our hit list. However, remember that they're researching something and generating gold. Let's trade with them while we fill the known territory to the north and reach for the ivory. If we want to early rush the Dutch, I'd still say we need 4-6 cities before we can safely do so.
Reputation -- I'd say it's golden. We can warmonger without destroying our ability to trade. The Dutch start with Alpha, and are seafaring, so it's likely they've got curraghs out and have either made contact or will do so soon. Let's trade and see if we can keep the AI's bank accounts empty.
Research -- I think we've pretty well decided to go republic slingshot. I suggest beelining philosophy and using any monopolies that we can pick up to trade for the "war techs."
Government -- Another issue to put on the table: I think we've pretty well decided to go Republic. I ran some CA2 tests on another game last night. The game is monarch, continents, iroquios, sharing a continent with the English, Dutch and Russians. I pulled off the Republic slingshot and shifted to Republic asap. Naturally, I lost gold initially due to unit support, but I've straightened most of that out. Anyway, it's now the very early middle ages, I'm about to get knights, I've got about half of my continent conquered, and just traded for monarchy. I looked at CA2 to see what the difference to my treasury would be if I went monarchy -- in Republic, I was at +7 gpt; if I were to go Monarchy, I'd have been at +50 gpt! My point is, I think I went into Republic way too early and we should consider our timing on the switch. Despotism will serve us well for a while for its unit support.
BTW, Twix, will we be seeing updates to your Irresistible Iroquois anytime soon?
Twixmeistah
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2006
- Messages
- 34
Aabraxan said:
I am working on it right at this moment
. You can expect an update in a short while. After that is taken care of I will analyze our decisions in this game.
Phaedo
Emperor
I don't think we have decesions yet
Maybe I misunderstood the previous posts but isn't yellow between us and the dutch? That was my reasoning for preferring it over the costal blue.
I agreee they're spaced fairly widely. Is CxxC the route togo? I have always been partial to CxxxC for the core myself. We have good land, so why not use it?
we will need the grapes worked. I haven't thought about it enough to decide to push those before mining the tile we are on, but my gut says, work the current tile and the others later.
As for research, we haven't decided on a republic slingshot at all. We have only decided to work alphabet and max research. If we are going for the republic slingshot, we are going to have to be incredibly disciplined to get it. That's not to say a phil jump isn't possible or even desirable, but is the Rep slingshot what we want to go for? I think this needs a bit more discussion.
Besides, the Republic slingshot means researching CoL before getting Phil.
Before we jump to hard goals, let's have a general idea of our strategy. How do we expect to win this thing?
Maybe I misunderstood the previous posts but isn't yellow between us and the dutch? That was my reasoning for preferring it over the costal blue.
I agreee they're spaced fairly widely. Is CxxC the route togo? I have always been partial to CxxxC for the core myself. We have good land, so why not use it?
we will need the grapes worked. I haven't thought about it enough to decide to push those before mining the tile we are on, but my gut says, work the current tile and the others later.
As for research, we haven't decided on a republic slingshot at all. We have only decided to work alphabet and max research. If we are going for the republic slingshot, we are going to have to be incredibly disciplined to get it. That's not to say a phil jump isn't possible or even desirable, but is the Rep slingshot what we want to go for? I think this needs a bit more discussion.
Besides, the Republic slingshot means researching CoL before getting Phil.
Before we jump to hard goals, let's have a general idea of our strategy. How do we expect to win this thing?
Phaedo said:I don't think we have decesions yet
Fair enough. I thought we had. Even if we had, we can always change our minds as circumstances change.
Yes, yellow is between us and the Dutch. The question, I guess, is whether we put the new city between us and the Dutch, or on the far side (red) where it's shielded from the Dutch. I leaned towards the latter because Moscow will be able to produce units faster. I guess my thinking was to protect the new city.
I was shooting for CxxC. I always tend towards a denser empire, regardless of the game, it seems. They're easier top defend. I'm open to CxxxC in the core, though.
Oops. I was apparently suffering from cranial rectitis. . . I somehow thought the worker had already mined the tile he's on. Let him finish his work before moving him.
Apologies. Sounds like I got ahead of everyone in thinking that we'd decided to go for Rep Slingshot. When we started on alpha at max, to my mind, the next logical step was that we were going for the slingshot. I know that we've got to get CoL before Phil. I also think it can be done, and I think we should go for it. I think it provides good trade opportunities along the way that will allow us to trade for some of the more war-oriented techs.
As you pointed out, we need to work those grapes. Those grapes are all on the river. That's good for gold and research.
Phaedo
Emperor
I don't think your assumptions were bad Aabra, I just want to have a bit of discussion before we commit to them. The Republic slingshot I think is very doable (although it means maxing gold and perhaps sacrificing some shields or food along the way). I guess my question is whether that is our first priority? It could be, and I would feel good about it, I would just like to have a bit of an overarching plan and some reasons why the republic slingshot will advance that plan better than other options before we jump ahead. As we have committed to being warmongers (although fortuntely not AW
), we may want to focus on military concerns before government.
Also, the dot map was for discussion. I think city placement is an area I can defiately improve upon. I took Sal's map as a base and threw out some ideas based on the extra info we gained. I feel there could be a lot of discussion about the placement and the relative value of cxxc vs. cxxxc. I am quite interested in the discussion. I also think it is somewhat goal dependent. [You know you're a Canadian when you qualify every statement you make ]. In this case, where we are planning to be agressive, the cxxc placement is a good option. I wasn't looking at it that way. Put together a dot map and let's discuss options
), we may want to focus on military concerns before government. Also, the dot map was for discussion. I think city placement is an area I can defiately improve upon. I took Sal's map as a base and threw out some ideas based on the extra info we gained. I feel there could be a lot of discussion about the placement and the relative value of cxxc vs. cxxxc. I am quite interested in the discussion. I also think it is somewhat goal dependent. [You know you're a Canadian when you qualify every statement you make
]. In this case, where we are planning to be agressive, the cxxc placement is a good option. I wasn't looking at it that way. Put together a dot map and let's discuss optionsI don't have time to put together a dot map tonight, but I hope to be able to do so in the next day or two. I think one of the areas that we're differing on is whether we want to research the war techs or trade for them. You sound like you're leaning towards researching them, me towards trading for them. I know that I was one of the strong proponents of warmongering (& still am), so that may seem a little strange.
At any rate, two things come to mind: (1) at CxxxC, it's a very long time before our cities are working all tiles; and (2) defensive capability. Assuming that I understand roads and movement properly (and please tell me if I'm not): roads triple movement. That means at CxxxC, a 1-movement unit (warrior, sword) can get from C1 to C2 in one turn. At CxxC, that same unit can get from C1 to C2 and attack in one move.
That said, the more I've thought about it, the more I think we may want to go ahead and go CxxxC in the core. You're right about wanting larger area in the core.
I've also seen talk of some players setting up "camps" or temporary cities. They have no improvements, serve their purposes and are then abandoned. . .
At any rate, two things come to mind: (1) at CxxxC, it's a very long time before our cities are working all tiles; and (2) defensive capability. Assuming that I understand roads and movement properly (and please tell me if I'm not): roads triple movement. That means at CxxxC, a 1-movement unit (warrior, sword) can get from C1 to C2 in one turn. At CxxC, that same unit can get from C1 to C2 and attack in one move.
That said, the more I've thought about it, the more I think we may want to go ahead and go CxxxC in the core. You're right about wanting larger area in the core.
I've also seen talk of some players setting up "camps" or temporary cities. They have no improvements, serve their purposes and are then abandoned. . .
Tribute
Not Sarcastic
Salarakas said:I think doing another 10 turns like this is OK but after that I'd prefer to go for the usual succession game thing. The opening turns aren't all that interesting (although very important!) and with this pace it will take ages before the fun part starts
Tribute said:
Yes indeed. I'd probably go for a 4 turn one (by using all the three wines) as we have a couple of wheats close by and could churn out workers from those cities if necessery. Other core cities could concentrate on building mostly troops. But it will take a while to get the factory going as we need a couple of cities first before I would start building the granary. If there were no barbarians I might start building the granary sooner but now I feel we need a couple of cities producing archers/spearmen too
About this, 4 turns is not possible unless you switch governments or something. The maximum population to start a 4 turn factory is size 5 with 0 food. But that only allows you 2 citizens to work on mined BG. That means 5 spt for 1 turn. 7 for 2 turns. And maybe 9 on the last. So the max shields you can get is 28.
But if you do get an iron hill/mountain, mine it and you WILL be able to do a 4 turn one. But best right now is 5 turns.
Phaedo
Emperor
As I understand movement, your one move unit will be able to cover three roaded squares. So in CxxC placement, a unit can move from one city to another in one turn (C>x1st move x>x 2nd move x>C 3rd move). You can't make it from one city to another in CxxxC. You could only move from one city to another one AND attack in CxC.
Having said all that, you are right that we wouldn't max out the used tiles for quite a while. I think CxxxC placement is looking down the road. With CxxC at the core, your cities would have 8 squares to work before they started sharing. I think it's reasonable to assume that these cities could get to size 12 but it would be difficult to get bigger. Now 12 is a pretty big city but bigger cities allow for more production once you get to the modern age. It is quite a while before this gets to be an issue which is why CxxC placement is a real option.
I just like CxxxC because it covers more territory. After your third ring of cities, they are all corrupt anyway so I end up close to a CxC placement. Usually I go CxxxC from my capital, then CxxC for the third ring, and after that I'm happy with CxC. I just found it frustrating when my core were my only truely productive cities and they maxed out at 12 pop. I think CxxC has a lot of value for war making though (which is why it is a discussion we ought to have). It would give more cities in a given area and thus allow for more unit support. The defense aspect I don't think is so important. If we need to shuffle troops between our core cities or fear loosing them, we are in trouble!
It is important once we get to that second ring though.
Having said all that, you are right that we wouldn't max out the used tiles for quite a while. I think CxxxC placement is looking down the road. With CxxC at the core, your cities would have 8 squares to work before they started sharing. I think it's reasonable to assume that these cities could get to size 12 but it would be difficult to get bigger. Now 12 is a pretty big city but bigger cities allow for more production once you get to the modern age. It is quite a while before this gets to be an issue which is why CxxC placement is a real option.
I just like CxxxC because it covers more territory. After your third ring of cities, they are all corrupt anyway so I end up close to a CxC placement. Usually I go CxxxC from my capital, then CxxC for the third ring, and after that I'm happy with CxC. I just found it frustrating when my core were my only truely productive cities and they maxed out at 12 pop. I think CxxC has a lot of value for war making though (which is why it is a discussion we ought to have). It would give more cities in a given area and thus allow for more unit support. The defense aspect I don't think is so important. If we need to shuffle troops between our core cities or fear loosing them, we are in trouble!
It is important once we get to that second ring though.
Well, since we now know that there's not much unexplored area in the west and north we might go for a warrior. The northern scout can finish exploring the northern area and then concentrate on busting fog while the southern one could keep on looking for AI civs. Remember, scouts are dead if they finish their turn next to a barbarian unit and barbarians are on restless here.
Definately mine the BG. We don't get any shields from irrigated wines so we must mine the BG squares asap. Personally I would have built the mine before building the road as we have "enough" commerce coming in already but are lacking in the shields. After that I'd start irrigating another wine.
Make that three wines and five(!) BGs once the borders expand. Three wines give us +5 food and the BGs give us enough shields for a four turn settler factory once we have built a granary.
I'd say no to this. We have no reason to go to war until there's no more land to fill with settlers. Quick expansion with small troop count is what we should aim for. Once we have run out of space we should build enough troops to feel comfortable going to war and then strike the closest AI which seems to be the Dutch.
The land around is so good that we have a good chance of succeeding in the gambit. However, we also need some military techs sooner than later so that we can build proper troops while preparing for war. We also don't want to change into republic too quickly or it will hurt us big time. We are planning on starting a war and we need a lot of troops for it. Troops cost a lot of money in republic so we would need some cities (size 7-12) and preferably some multiplier buildings (libraries, marketplaces) in our biggest cities. I'd probably go for iron working next to see where the iron is.
May I ask why? It was three tiles from the capital (CxxC), next to a river (free aqueduct), could use the wines for faster growth if the capital didn't need them for some reason, had two or three BGs in its fat cross, some forests from chopping, not a single bad square (apart from the mountain), I only had to waste one settler move to get there... The only other option for the city in my mind was across the river but it would have wasted another settler move and I didn't yet know that there was a wheat behind the mountain at that time.
Now that the capital is on the hill rather than the grassland I don't think we can/should put a city in the northeast part of the river as it would be just two tiles from the capital.
Now that you mention it you're right, I never did the math properly. I thought it through now and got 28 shields (like you did) in 4 turns if we started from size 5 but unfortunately not 30. I'm usually making settler factories when I have cows around so getting no shields from the wines kind of hurts here. It will have to be a 5 turn factory then.
Phaedo
Emperor
No qualms with the decesion making, just that now we know the wheat is there I'd be nice to use it.Phaedo said:
Now that we know the immediate surroundings I made some calculations about the two spots used for the capital:
Spot #1 - on the hill
-3 wines
-2 hills
-5 bonus grasslands
-9 river tiles and tobacco for bonus commerce
Spot #2 - on the grassland 1SE of the hill
-3 wines
-6 hills
-4 bonus grasslands
-9 river tiles and tobacco for bonus commerce
In republic and size 12 the two would make (food+shields)
Spot #1:
2+1 city square
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
1+2 forest
2+1 mined grassland
29 food, 20 shields
By minimizing the amount of wasted food and maximizing shields it could make 23 or 24 shields if I'm not mistaken. It would take 27 or 25 turns to build Sun Tzu's Art Of War with full capacity. 24 shields would be enough for 3 turn knights.
Spot #2:
2+1 city square
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
26 food, 25 shields
Mine two of the wines and it's 24 food and 27 shields. That's Sun Tzu's Art Of War in 23 turns. 27 shields isn't enough for 3 turn cossacks though.
Spot #1 - on the hill
-3 wines
-2 hills
-5 bonus grasslands
-9 river tiles and tobacco for bonus commerce
Spot #2 - on the grassland 1SE of the hill
-3 wines
-6 hills
-4 bonus grasslands
-9 river tiles and tobacco for bonus commerce
In republic and size 12 the two would make (food+shields)
Spot #1:
2+1 city square
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
1+2 forest
2+1 mined grassland
29 food, 20 shields
By minimizing the amount of wasted food and maximizing shields it could make 23 or 24 shields if I'm not mistaken. It would take 27 or 25 turns to build Sun Tzu's Art Of War with full capacity. 24 shields would be enough for 3 turn knights.
Spot #2:
2+1 city square
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
4+0 irrigated wines
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
1+3 mined hill
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
2+2 mined bonus grassland
26 food, 25 shields
Mine two of the wines and it's 24 food and 27 shields. That's Sun Tzu's Art Of War in 23 turns. 27 shields isn't enough for 3 turn cossacks though.
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