Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[Twixmeistah]

Now for some in-game comments:

- The expansion phase will begin after the granary is finished. I'd like to see us expand the most we can, because it will benefit us later on. There is no acute threat on our hands, so let's build as much cities as we can, and only then put up an attack. Are the Dutch still our first target, or should we take a civ from the west (hittite)?

- I'd like to see: 1) granary 2) defence unit 3) settler. The settler should head towards the blue spot, since exploring the ocean is a very efective way to gain contact with other civs.

- I think we should generally expand south in contrary to Sal. We don't have competition in the north, so we can find some cities there later on as well. In the south though, we have a couple of other civs. So, I think it is worthwile getting the better settling spots before they do. Besides, it is better for warmongering purpose to have some cities nearby enemy terrain (the only thing is that we should defend them well).

- Research: I'm with Sal on this one. If we have iron --> writing, if not --> the wheel. We do have enough time to build math afterwards for SoZ.

That's all I can think of ATM, maybe some things later on.

P.S. Good to be back

 

[Aabraxan]

I found both time to play (at least part of) the turnset and the iron. See attached.

 

[Aabraxan]

Pre-turn assessment:
Short-term goals: Begin granary in Moscow
Mid-range goals: Begin the Statute of Zeus
Long-term goals: World domination.
Research status: Iron Working in 4. Next: Writing if we have iron, otherwise the wheel.

Turn 0: Preflight
Moscow is showing: Growth to size 5 in 1 with no overrun, building a spearman in 4. It's got one happy, two content and one unhappy citizens at this point. We've got one lux hooked up. It's also go two warriors and we're not at war with anyone. I change the build to a settler, which can be had in 6.
The worker will finish roading in 3.
Arabs won't trade mysticism.
Dutch won't trade the wheel.
Hittites won't trade the wheel.
Celts won't trade the wheel.
(All in all, a rotten round of trading.)
Dutch, Celts and Hittites have at least two cities each.
Treasury at 42 gold, -2 gpt

IBT: Hittite and Arab scouts move around close to Moscow. Barb Warrior south of the village steps north onto the hill.

Turn 1: 2510 BC
Scout south by the barbs renamed Scout 001. Unfortunately, he can only bust one more fog square to the south without becoming a human sacrifice. He steps one south (next to the barb) and then north again.
Other scout (out by the Arabs) renamed Scout 002. He goes 1 S towards the Arabs. He spots gold and determines that the Arabs also have two cities. A warrior is fortified in Medina. Next move: 1 W. The Arabs have cultivated two squares and mined one. Looks like they're on the river, too.
Moscow now has two unhappy people to its one happy. . . We're running at 100% science with IW in two, so I opt to make a specialist. Whipping would cost 2 citizens and that doesn't seem like a good trade at this time. Pulling the citizen off the forest sets the settler production back to 9, so I pull a winery worker. That sets Moscow back to growth in 10, but that seems preferable to having the settler's production set back right now.
I create a scientist and fiddle with the science slider, giving us IW in 2 turns at -1 gpt.

IBT: Goth Warrior emerges from the fog to the North.
Celt warrior approaches Scout 002
Barb Warrior approaches Scout 001
Hittite Scout disappears into the fog.


Turn 2: 2470 BC:
Scouts run away from their respective threats.
Scout 002 intends to cross Arab lands and winds up right next to Medina.
Tinker with science slider, IW in 1 at breaking even.
Make a few calls regarding trade, to no avail.

IBT: Arabs call. They don't like our scout in their area. I grovel and promise to move him.
I find iron. It's not exactly in our territory, but not that far, either.
Goth Warrior moves in next to our worker.

Turn 3: 2430
Set research to The Wheel.
Make some calls. The Arabs have the most gold so I'll start with them. Unfortunately, they only have mysticism to trade and they want both Iron Working and Alpha for it. What I really want is the Wheel. Nah, let's see what the others will give.
The Dutch will give me the Wheel and 6 gold for Iron Working.
That doesn't seem like a great deal, so I go back to the Arabs. If I switch and ask what they'll offer for IW, they'll give me mysticism and 35 gold. Now, we're talking! I take the deal and head back to the Dutch. I'm going to go bargain shopping.
Oddly, the Dutch will be insulted by IW for Wheel +6 gold. I shuffle around but am unhappy with all of the deals that William will go for, so I'll come back to him after I've depreciated Mysticism and IW by selling them off.
The Celts (with the next largest treasury) offers The Wheel +4 gold for IW. I take it and go back to the Dutch.
The Dutch have only 6 gold and no techs, so they'll have to buy IW somewhere else.
I move the worker SE to the BG to begin mining.
Wake one Warrior from Moscow to go sit on him.
Scout 1 1 NE.
Scout 2 1 S (out of Arab territory), then 1SW.
Moscow is back up to more unhappy than happy. Convert the scientist to an entertainer, rather than create another scientist.
Writing in 27 turns.
Treasury at 78, +4 gpt.

IBT: Goth moves onto the mountain. Arab scout runs north.

Turn 4: 2390 BC
Worker begins Mine.
Scout 001 runs 2 N.
Scout 002 notices that the Arabs have a stack of two workers.
Scout 002 moves 2 SW.
Warrior moves onto worker.
Whipping down to a cost of 1 citizen, but that's 20% of our population at this point.

IBT: Arab Settler Pair headed SE out of captial.
Celtic veteran warrior appears on our borders.

Turn 5: 2350
Fortify warrior on worker.
Moscow one from growing.
Scout 001 moves NE. Let's bust some Dutch fog.
Lone Dutch settler spotted right next to iron.
Scout 002 goes 2 SE.

IBT: Dutch settler moves onto iron.
Arab pair moves SE.

Turn 6: 2310
Scout 002 -- 2 E. Spots more iron down by the Arabs.
Scout 001 -- 1 E, 1 NE. Can now see Amsterdan.
Make some calls:
Nobody has any tech or gold.
Check on Moscow:
3 unhappy, 2 happy and 2 turns to a settler. One clown and one scientist will do the trick.

IBT: Bill calls. He's mad. I apologize and offer to move troops. Gee, Bill, while you're here, let's see what you've got to trade. Answer: 6 gold, no techs.

Turn 7: 2270
Scout 002 -- 1 South. Spots a Barb camp (Khosian) right next to an Arab warrior. Steps 1 SE to watch the fracas.
Scout 001 -- 1 E to get out of Dutch lands. Steps on the Dutch iron hill to figure out where the settler went. The Dutch are about to found a city with both horses and iron in its radius. It is 5 tiles due SW of Amsterdam.
Writing in 15.

IBT: Arabs kill a Barb.
Moscow builds a settler. Set to Warrior.
Dutch found The Hague.

Turn 8: 2230
Wake Moscow Warrior. Send N with Settler.
Scout 001 moving N out of Dutch lands (which expanded to encompass him when the Dutch founded The Hague).
Scout 002 -- 2 SW.
Wake Warrior guarding worker. Celtic warrior still standing there, but we're not at war and I need the warrior in Moscow for MP.
Zoom to Moscow. One happy, one content, one unhappy and one clown.
The Celts have Masonry.

IBT: Barb warrior moves onto a mountain.
Barb warrior down by Scout 002 moves next to him.

Turn 9: 2190:
Tech summary:
Celts are up Masonry
Hittites up Horseback riding and down iron working.
Arabs are even.
Netherlands are down Mysticism.
William has 31 gold and will give 30 of it for Mysticism. Not yet. I want to wait and see if he'll trade tech later.
Mursilis doesn't seem to want to trade anything.
Neither of the other two can or will trade now. No trades made.
Scout 002 makes good use of the 2-movement trait and runs into the mountains along the coast. (Those brave souls who run away live to fight another day, right?)
Scout 001 moves out of Dutch territory, then 1 back in. (They had some fog I just had to bust).
Writing in 20, Warrior in Moscow in 3.

IBT: Barb moves inside Moscow's borders.
2 Dutch warriors head NW.
Mine finished.

Turn 10: 2150
Move Settler Pair onto the tile to settle next city.
Begin road.
Move Settler 002 -- 1 N. The Arabs have settled Damascus
Iron Working and Mysticism have been traded around. We're now down Horseback riding and Masonry.
Trades attempted, none successful

Summary:
We're down Horseback Riding and Masonry.
We're ready to found our second city, but that honor goes to the next player.
Our units consist of:
Settlers: 1
Workers: 1
Scouts: 2
Warriors: 2
The granary is up and running and Moscow can begin pumping settlers any time now.
Moscow gets a warrior in 2, but this can be cut to 1 by moving a citizen to the newly mined BG.
Writing in 19.
Treasury 68, -3 gpt.

Screenshot:



Save is in the next post.

 

[Aabraxan]

First, I just realized that I forgot to post the save, so it's on this post.

Second, I've got a settler ready to claim the wheat almost due N of Moscow. I agree that, generally, expansion to the north to claim the ivory is the preferable direction, bit we're going to need at least a couple of settlers to move south to claim the iron. We only have one source in our vicinity. Now that we've got 3 irrigated grapes, two mined BGs and a granary, we should be popping out settlers left and right. I was sorely tempted to pop another settler prior to building the warrior that's on deck right now, just because Moscow is growing so fast.

Third, research is slow. We're 19 turns from writing, but it feels like we're beginning to fall behind. Maybe that will change when we get our next cities founded, but the AIs are up to 3 cities in some cases. . .

Edit: That's a warrior on deck, not a worker, as I had originally put in the next to last line of the "Second" paragraph.

 

[Phaedo]

Nice set Aabra. I thought the tradig was quite good
And good to have you back Twix You're up but if you need a skip that's fine just let us know.

I agree about the iron. Maybe our next city should 1 west of the iron to claim it and that would give us another location where the Celt warrior stands and a possible kill zone city on the hill next to the northern banana (after we fill out the north a bit). Maybe a costal ivory city after the iron? No horsies near so we need that iron.

I think we should pump out another settler before the worker. We should be able to pump out a quick worker after with some MMing. Getting that iron hooked up should be a priority but the ivory is a close second (both for SoZ and the happy factor).

The roster as it stads is:
Twix (unless he needs a skip)
Phaedo
D'art (skipping until his RL issues are worked out)
Sal
Aabra

 

[Aabraxan]

Thanks, Phaedo. I'm not an emperor-level player, but I am trying to hold up my end of the bargain here. That said, if any of you see any improvements I could make, speak up. That's why we're here. One thing that I've already learned, both from my first set here and the Cbob01 game, is that keeping a really detailed turnlog forces me to pay closer attention to what I'm doing.

As far as trades go, I just figured that I could get by trading those things that we had discussed researching. I'm just sorry that I missed out on the opportunity to sell Mysticism. 6 gold just didn't seem like a fair price and I thought I could get more.

Moscow is growing really, really fast. I think iron is the priority and the Dutch (and maybe the Arabs) have already claimed theirs. Once we've got that, though, we really, really need to look to grabbing a second lux (ivory). Our settler pump is in fine form and it's going to take some real MMiing to pump settlers fast enough to keep from rioting.

I would also note that our treasury will not be able to withstand -3 gpt for 19 turns without running dangerously low. Other research options should be explored. I don't want to waste any beakers, so we may need to lower the research slider.

Twix, good to have you back.

 

[Phaedo]

I think both the log and the discussion before taking turns helps the focus. A fixed set of turns helps as well.
Trading really isn't my strength (probably my greatest weakness), but I think it was better to trade with the Arabs rather than the Dutch. You got more money.

Getting up more cities will speed up the research significantly. We are going to lag if our only city is pumping out settlers and if the citizens are specialists, it's going to hurt more. As far as I understand it, research is a product of your civ's commerce. more pop=more science (sort of). Roading is really important to keep that commerce up and of course corruption hurts it. But the AI will out research us anyway. They literally need less beakers to learn tech than we do so we'll never be able to keep up through self-research

Now that our pump is up and running we should be getting more and more citizens producing commerce, thus speeding up our research. Another warrior in moscow will help the happiness and the settlers will keep the pop down a bit.

 

[Salarakas]

It's good that we have iron so close to us. We would have been really unlucky not to though since we have so many hills. Our third city could go 1NE of the iron since it's both coastal and next to the river. It also has plenty of shields.

After that we need to start filling the northern good parts.

- I think we should generally expand south in contrary to Sal. We don't have competition in the north, so we can find some cities there later on as well. In the south though, we have a couple of other civs. So, I think it is worthwile getting the better settling spots before they do. Besides, it is better for warmongering purpose to have some cities nearby enemy terrain (the only thing is that we should defend them well).

Generally I agree with you start settling towards the enemy is the right choice. However, the good lands lie north/west of us and we need to get those or the AI civs will send their settler pairs right through our territory and claim them. Getting the ivory connected is our next short term goal after we get the iron.

And besides, we'll have cities "nearby enemy terrain" no matter what we do Thinking about it we might want to attack the Hittites first anyway since they have horses and silks, both of which we want. The Dutch don't have any resources we need and the land around their core is poor.

That said, if any of you see any improvements I could make, speak up. That's why we're here.

Well, since you asked

I think using specialists was a big mistake. The way to deal with unhappiness in the beginning of the game is by rising the lux slider (like I told in the notes section of my turnlog) when needed. Losing some beakers does not hurt us much but losing shields and food with specialists hurts us big time. Using one specialist slowed our growth by at least one turn and getting the settler by probably more turns. And you used two in the end We've already "lost" a great many turns by building the granary and we really need to expand fast now. If you do the math we can get settlers every 5 turns if we raise the lux slider when needed. With specialists that can easily be 10 turns.

 

[Aabraxan]

Our third city could go 1NE of the iron since it's both coastal and next to the river. It also has plenty of shields.

After that we need to start filling the northern good parts.

This sounds like a good plan to me.

However, the good lands lie north/west of us and we need to get those or the AI civs will send their settler pairs right through our territory and claim them. Getting the ivory connected is our next short term goal after we get the iron.

Again, sounds good. I really don't want the AI to cut us off from the ivory, if we can avoid it.

I think using specialists was a big mistake. The way to deal with unhappiness in the beginning of the game is by rising the lux slider (like I told in the notes section of my turnlog) when needed. Losing some beakers does not hurt us much but losing shields and food with specialists hurts us big time. Using one specialist slowed our growth by at least one turn and getting the settler by probably more turns. And you used two in the end We've already "lost" a great many turns by building the granary and we really need to expand fast now. If you do the math we can get settlers every 5 turns if we raise the lux slider when needed. With specialists that can easily be 10 turns.

Yes, I did ask, and you're right. I was trying to avoid cutting into our research budget, but it was a mistake. Thanks.

 

[Phaedo]

I guess it's my turn . I'm not going to get a chance to play tonight so I will tomorrow after work. Somehow I was thinking Twix was up. Sorry.

I agree with Sal's assessment of the next short term goals. I'll post a pre-flight tonight if I can get to it

 

[Twixmeistah]

I think I was supposed to play indeed, though I'm afraid I need a skip. So, It's all yours. GL!

 

[Phaedo]

After taking the vote on the last save (which was Twix'S I got a little confused about things so here's a new roster:

Sal (played but may be on deck of Twix needs more time)
Aabra (Just played)
Phaedo (up)
Twix (on deck unless he needs more time)
D'art (skipping until he gets back to us)

I guess as we took Twix's save he was the first in this series although I'm not sure how these things work really. Anyway, this isn't a bad way to start things and we are on regular SG format so there ought not to be confusion again. When D'art has time to get back involved, we'll just rotate him into the roster although it would be nice if he has some input for a turnset or two before he takes a set Once we make a rotation, I'll post the roster on the 1st post

More tomorrow. Any suggestions before I take it?

 

[Phaedo]

Well, I'm about to start my set. Sorry about the confusion over the roster. I'll do something about that (on the first page before I start).
I'm going to post a more detailed outline of this set's goals as I'm doing a pre-flight for myself looking at the save. For now, I'm thinking these as short term goals:

1. Settle where the settler pair stands next to the wheat
2. Get another settler going to claim the spot NE of the iron
3. Build up our army as much as possible

 

[Phaedo]

I edited the first post as an information page (a good idea I stole from Aabra in the Cbob Aw game )

I also added this note for Alanc:
If Alanc wants to get in on the discussion as a lurker for a rotation to get a sense of what is happening in the game, we can rotate him in.

I'm pretty sure he has dropped out but if he just got too busy I hope he doesn't feel too embarassed to get back in. I think the discussion for a full roatation is fair and perhaps it would be a good idea for D'art too. Jumping in out of the blue could be frustrating for everyone

 

[Phaedo]

the preflight looks pretty similar to the post above

Preflight:
After looking at the save, It seems I could pump out 2 more settleres or a
settler and a unit or two. So...
1) Build the new city
2) settle NW of iron
3) develop our land
4) find and destroy the barb camp if I can get to it in time.

 

[Phaedo]

2150 BC Turn 40
Get rid of the specialist and get the citizen working the mined BG b/c it's
the same growth time. Use the lux slider to avoid revolt.
Change the build to a worker
hit Enter

IBT some movement. Anoter Barb appears and the Dutch send out a couple of workers to meet us

2110 BC Turn 41
Worker built and switch to settler
Found St Petersburg. The citizen is working the unworked wine of Moscow. We now get Writing in 15 with -1 gpt (we will always have that -1 gpt as long
as we are on max research but we can afford it for a while so no worries)
Fortify the warrior in St. Pete's
Send the new worker to the BG west of the grapes to start mining.
Scout 001 moves to N->E and will die after finding a Barb camp (that was stupid, sorry )
Scout 002 moves NW 2x to look for new huts

IBT Barb dies attacking St. Pete's with no losses. Scout 001 dies and the Dutch are building the Collosus. Barb moves towards St Pete's. Our people love us and we get some grass for our burgeoning palace

2070 BC Turn 42
Scout002 moves onto the iron to have a looksee. Doesn't see much other than an Arab settler.
Worker starts mining the BG

IBT Some movement and the origianal Barb attacks St. Pete's. It was a close
battle and our warrior was redlined but victorious

2030 BC Turn 43
1st worker finished his road and moves towards St P's to connect the two
cities.
Scout 002 busts some fog

IBT The Celts are building the Oracle

1990 BC Turn 44
Scout 002 moves into Arab teritory and opens up Mecca at size 1
worker moves to road space
Turn up lux slider again to avoid disorder (maybe I should have build that warrior). Writing in 12

IBT Arabs complain and we apologize

1950 BC Turn 45
Worker starts road
Scout002 moves deaper into Arab territory to cross it.

IBT Zzzz

1910 BC Turn 46
Moscow builds Settler and he moves East. Starts on Warrior
Turn science slider back up to 100% (Writing in 10)
Scout move to NE edge of Arab territory

IBT Zzzz

1870 BC Turn 47
Settler moves SE and sees a Barb on the hill. Move back to Moscow to await
the warrior escort next turn.
Scout starts to go up the north coast of the land between the Arabs and Hittites

IBT Zzzz

1830 BC Turn 48
Worker finishes mine and starts roading.
Worker finishes road and moves to the BG west of St. Pete's
Settler with escort move E. Turn lux up to 10% (Writing in 8)
Scout keeps moving up the coast

IBT Arabs build a new city near our scout. They will be rubbing against the Celts soon

1790 BC Turn 49
Scout moves up to the hills in neutral territory
Warrior moves to the hill N of the iron and sees a weakened Dutch warrior who
obviously killed the Barb. Settler joins the warrior
Worker on the BG starts a mine

IBT Zzzz

1750 BC Turn 50
Moscow builds warrior who fortifies and switches to Settler (in 5)
Science back up to 100% (Writing in 5)
Settler and escort move to the site of future "Port du Fer" (I really wanted to found that city but the Barb got in the way)
Scout 002 keeps moving north (the Celts have ivory so we don't have a lot of
time if we want SoZ)

Well, I didn't accomplish what I expected to, but I don't know what I could have done to change things. All and all, I'm not too happy with that set so criticism would be welcome.

I guess i wans't counting on the Barb issue and the rate of growth of Moscow was suprising. It will be really nice to get that ivory hooked up and I think the Hittites should be our first target for the lux if nothing else.

Here are the pics:

 

[Aabraxan]

First, don't worry about the confusion regarding the roster. It happens, and it's not like we had a huge delay.

Second, I'm all for letting Alanc and D'Art get into the discussion for a round before playing.

I'm not at a computer where I can look at the save, but I do have a couple of questions. The Celts are building The Oracle and it doesn't look like their ivory is hooked up. I don't have any sort of feel for whether the AI will use The Oracle as a prebuild. Does the AI do that, or will it stick to the Oracle until it's built? At any rate, I am not convinced that we can start a prebuild for SoZ yet. That's too much of our production eaten up. We've only got two cities right now, due to my having hired a specialist too early. Let's get a couple more cities planted before starting a prebuild.

On the other hand, if we wanted a long, narrow empire, we could just plant the next city in a position to claim the ivory. I just don't know how advisable this is and my gut says . . . not very.

On a totally non-strategy related item, your graphics are very slick. Did you install a new graphics pack? If so, which one? I'm using Snoopy's, but I like yours.

 

[Bucephalus]

I don't have any sort of feel for whether the AI will use The Oracle as a prebuild. Does the AI do that, or will it stick to the Oracle until it's built?

lurker's comment: I'm sure that the AI doesn't plan ahead with pre-builds, in the way a human would, but it will readily switch production to another Wonder if it is beaten to a Wonder it was researching; that's why it is so hard to get AA Wonders at higher levels. So be wary of trading away any Monopoly techs which give a Wonder that you really want. They do have 'Wonder fixation' though, which is often to your advantage in AA wars.

 

[Aabraxan]

That's what I needed to know. I knew that the AI would switch if beaten to a Wonder. I just didn't know how likely it was that it would abandon the Oracle if SoZ becomes available. Thanks.

So . . . Here are the SoZ-related points:
1) Do the Celts have math? (I don't think they do).
2) If not, does anyone?
3) Do they have their ivory hooked up? It does not appear so.


If the Celts have tied up some substantial part of their empire with the Oracle, and are unlikely to switch to the SoZ, I say leave them alone and let the build. Let's just not trade Math around. Also, let's keep an eye out and try to buy their workers as they produce them.

 

[Phaedo]

The Celts have masonry and we don't so we don't know if they have math or not.
As for tech, we are down Masonry to the Arabs, Celts and Hittites and down
Horseback to the Celts and the Hittites.
Given the spread, there's a good chance someone has math but you never know. I think SoZ is a lower priority for the AI but we could easily lose it in a cascade. The extra lux is needed regardless so if we don't get SoZ it won't be the end of the world. The Celts alredy have a 3/2 unit with 2 movement anyway so it deosn't really give them a huge advantage.

I don't think we could get to the Celts effectively anyway. We would have to go through the Hittites and I think Sal was right that they should be our first target. That is secondary to growth at this point though. Moscow is growing so fast pop rushing settlers could be an effective way to get them out quick and control our happy issue (wish I had thought of that while I was playing).

I think there is a Barb camp up by our ivory which needs to be dealt with but St Pete's will have an archer in 4 that should be able ot deal with it if the Celt warrior doesn't do it first. Those Hittites are expaning pretty rapidly towards us. We need to get more cities fast. That shouldn't be too big a problem though with Moscow growing so quickly.

Yea, I installed the Womoks' Terrain pack over the weekend. I like the change but it's hard to see the grid on grassland and the rivers could use some work but I love the mountains and am generally happy with it.