Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[Salarakas]

Moscow is growing really, really fast.

the rate of growth of Moscow was suprising

It seems that you guys don't fully understand what a settler factory or a settler pump is. The fast growth is exactly what we want and the reason why we irrigated all the 3 wines and built the granary.

A perfect 4 turn settler factory is a town that can grow 2 sizes (from 4 to 6 or from 5 to 7) in 4 turns AND get at least 30 shields in those 4 turns. This way it can pump settlers out indefinately without any need of pop rushing, cash rushing, merging of workers or anything like that.

We have +5 food so we can grow 2 sizes in 4 turns but unfortunately we can only get max 28 shields in those 4 turns. Therefore we have to settle for a 5 turn factory. First grow from 4 to 5 (or preferably 5 to 6) in 2 turns by getting +5 food. Then, tweak the citizens a bit to slow the growth down to 3 turns or we will grow again before we manage to get the required 30 shields. Don't let the city grow into size 7 or the food box will empty (the granary doesn't keep half the food when growing from 6 to 7) and it will mess up our factory. If you time the build so that we finish the settler the SAME turn as we would grow to size 7 it won't empty the granary.

With a super start (e.g. 3 grassland cows and bonus grassland around it) you can even get a city that can pump out 1 settler AND 1 cheap unit like a warrior in 4 turns indefinately (or at least until you discover techs that make your cheap units obsolete and you can no longer build them).

 

[Phaedo]

I get the settler pump in principle although I haven't had much experience with such a high food, low shield ratio. The unhappiness was the issue for me and I still need to work on my MMing skills. It's the unhappiness factor that I struggle with. I haven't had many food rich games in the last little while (as I don't re-roll starts when I play solo).

So bear with me, from what I understand, it would be best to grow from 4 to 5 in 2 turns, use the lux slider and MM so the growth is in 3 right? That means the cycle will start 2 turns into the Sal set. After those turns, it would be best to take the citizen off the northern wines and put him on the new mine (while letting St. Pete's use the wine for 3 turns and turning up the lux slider 10-20% to keep up the happiness).

I think this is what I did, it's just that the constant adjusting of the lux slider doesn't feel natural to me yet so it was suprising. I suppose in my most recent solo games, I haven't had large food surpluses but have had availible luxes (or fell behind the AI quickly and went low research and went for unpopular techs to try to take advantage of imbalances between AI civs). I haven't built grans early much choosing to get early early cities in the past so to only have 2 cities at 1700ish BC is counter to my usual strategy too.

But thanks for the excellent explanation Sal . I think Aabra and I should feel much more comfortable when we turn up that lux slider and see our research turns expand . I am greatly appreciative that you joined up

 

[Salarakas]

Just to compare I played 20 turns from my save using the settler factory the best I could. I had to build a couple of troops so it slowed me down a bit but I managed to build 2 cities and a Moscow will finish a settler next IBT. Writing is in 4 and I started a prebuild in St. Petersburg for the Statue of Zeus. I built 1 worker, 1 archer and 2 warriors I think.

We're only down horseback riding to the Hittites (and up mysticism to them), with everyone else we're equal in techs.



I'm not saying we shouldn't continue from your saves but small things can make a big difference in the beginning of the game.

 

[Phaedo]

That's a huge difference! I guess I didn't use the settler factory well
As this is a training game, would anyone be adverse to me playing my set over and trying to max out the settler factory? I have Sal's play as a goal. I may not hit it but it would be a great 10 turn challenge for me.

Using your save rather than my original one makes more sense for putting us in a better position to win, but doesn't help much with the training aspect. You know Sal, as you seem to be most experienced, and defacto trainer, it might not be a bad idea to play sets concurrently with players and complare end results (without the screeenies to avoid spoiler info).

 

[Salarakas]

it would be best to grow from 4 to 5 in 2 turns, use the lux slider and MM so the growth is in 3 right?

Either that or start the cycle from size 5. We don't have enough shields to get a "free" warrior without delaying the settler builds so I'm not sure which would be better. Starting from size 4 would let us keep the lux slider lower for a while but then again starting from size 5 might get us more commerce which might translate into more research even with the higher lux slider. In any case we need to build some troops in Moscow for a while as St. Petersburg needs to start the SoZ and it will take a while before the other towns can produce enough units to keep up with the 5 turn settler factory.

The key is using the lux slider. Remember the golden rule - every time the town grows check the happiness situation and raise the slider if needed. And everytime you finish building a settler check the happiness situation again and lower the slider (i.e. raise the research slider) if you can. Don't use specialists unless you are sure that they are not slowing us down in any way.

After those turns, it would be best to take the citizen off the northern wines and put him on the new mine (while letting St. Pete's use the wine for 3 turns and turning up the lux slider 10-20% to keep up the happiness).

Good micromanaging would be something like this:

Turn 1 - size 5 - 10 food needed for growth - 0 shields done
-use the three wines for +5 food
-use two mined bonus grasslands for a total of 5 shields

Turn 2 - size 5 - 5 food needed for growth - 5 shields done
-use the same squares

Then it gets a bit more complicated. You need 10 food in 3 turns. That basically means 4+3+3 or 5+3+2 or 5+4+1 as you don't want to "waste" any. I have not done any math on which would be the best combination but just make sure you get 10 food and enough shields to reach 30 in those turns. Using a specialist or two for a turn or two works here if you know what you're doing.

And, like you said, St. Peterburg can use the one wine square when Moscow doesn't need it.

 

[Salarakas]

As this is a training game, would anyone be adverse to me playing my set over and trying to max out the settler factory? I have Sal's play as a goal. I may not hit it but it would be a great 10 turn challenge for me.

I played 20 turns starting from my last save, not 10 turns from Aab's save like you did. If you want you can try it at least for a personal experience.

Who knows, you might even do better than I did as I played quickly and some decisions like "do I build a warrior now or after the settler?" can change things considerably.

You know Sal, as you seem to be most experienced, and defacto trainer, it might not be a bad idea to play sets concurrently with players and complare end results (without the screeenies to avoid spoiler info).

I could live with that. I'm definately not one of the best players here in the forums but I do know a trick or two And I love fast expansion and micromanaging in the beginning of the game!

 

[Phaedo]

I could live with that. I'm definately not one of the best players here in the forums but I do know a trick or two And I love fast expansion and micromanaging in the beginning of the game!

I think I am safe in speaking for Aabra and I that we would appreciate it. It would also give us a chance to ask questions as to what you did to hep us improve our game.

I'll play my turns again, save the play by play and wait to see what the team wants. After thinking about it for a while, it's a bit of a slippery slope to replay turns so maybe we should live with my mistakes. However, replaying turn sets after feedback seems like a good way to learn from mistakes even if we do't use the saves. One thing I learned through my chess playing experience was that learning how prolong defeat doesn't improve your game. Learning how to win does. It is sometimes better to accept that some mistakes result in failure and start again. If you only practice losing or coming back from a losing position, you never learn how to win.

And now for something completey different... forgive the spam, but if anyone wants to play a game of chess, PM me and we can hook up (I don't want to offend anyone by promoting a site in the forums)

 

[Aabraxan]

Wow, where to begin . . .

No objection to replay. On the one hand, I don't think we want to get into the habit of replaying every turnset or of playing every turnset concurrently. On the other hand, I don't have a problem with replaying those that present special training opportunities. And I think we're at one of those points. Have at it, Phaedo. For comparison purposes, though, let us know which save you play from.

While I do understand the principle of settler factories, my execution leaves something to be desired. I think the happiness factor is what was really throwing me. Even at Monarch, you've got 2 contented citizens (right?), but at Emperor, you get 1. So Moscow's happiness was a constant issue for me. As far as managing settler pumps, I do OK figuring out what to do with citizens before that first pop growth. It's figuring out what to do with that other citizen after the growth that throws me. And that's just with one city in the mix. When you get to swapping tiles between cities (like you are discussing here), . . . well, I have rarely swapped tiles between cities, and have only recently begun doing that at all. That's one of the places that my MMing needs some work.

Thanks for the tips, Sal.

Chess? I haven't played chess against a human opponent in years and was never very good to begin with, but thanks for the invite.

 

[Phaedo]

Big difference! Thanks Sal, catching that we weren't doing thing right was a real help

After paying attention to the settler pump, I got the iron city built (Port du Fer) and a settler on his way to the ivory. Focusing on Moscow had the added benefit of improving my MMing of St Pete's. It can pump out warriors in 4 turns so our settlers have escorts. I didn't build another worker so we only have one but we could have another one in 2 turns from Moscow and it grows in 2 so it doesn't affect our pump. The lux slider stays between 10 and 20% which isn't a big deal.

We get writing in 5

I have the turn log and the save if we want to use it. I also made the same scout moves so we wouldn't benefit from spoiler info.

Let me know what you think

 

[Aabraxan]

Where are we in the roster? The organizational post says Phaedo's up.

 

[Phaedo]

Sal's up but might have been waiting for me to replay my set.

 

[Aabraxan]

Cool. I'm not trying to rush anyone. As you know, I just came up in CBob01.

 

[Salarakas]

Oh is it my turn already? I'm not sure if I can play today or even tomorrow but at least on Saturday at the latest. If someone wants to play before that go ahead.

 

[Phaedo]

No rush. So far, it's just the three of us who are going at it. D'art is on extended leave and Twix is busy although whenever he has time I thik he should take a turn. He said he needs to be an observer for a bit so I thought he was out of the rtation but properly it is his turn. As he has been a very active player before I think he can rotate in whenever he has time and we'll adjust the roster accordingly.

Thoughts on using the replay? Perhaps we shouldn't but it does put us in a much nicer position. I don't think we are lost with my original turn set so it's not a huge deal. While we are waiting though, why don't you replay my turnset Aabra and se what results you come up with. It's a bit of practice, we'll be able to compare and also be confident about using the settler pump for the rest of the game.

Here's my turn log for the record

Second try with attention to settler pump

Get rid of beakerhead and up the slider
change to settler
Return

2110 BC Turn 41
move citizen to forest (growth in 4 settler in 3) turn slider up
S found St Pete's and get citizen working irrigated grapes
Make same scout moves as my last game so scout001 will die

IBT same as before

2070 BC Turn 42
sme scout moves
move citizen to unworked BG so growth and settler in 2

IBT same. Barb dies to our redlined warrior

2030 BC Turn 43
same scout moves
Settler next turn! The management is making a big difference

IBT Zzzz

1990 BC Turn 44
Settler built
put Moscow citizens back in grapes (growth in 2)
Put St Pete's citizens on the foreest (warrior in 4). It'll get lots of food and no shield once Moscow grows
Settler starts moving towards the iron

IBT Zzzz

1950 BC Turn 45
Settler makes it to hill N of Iron with no natives in sight
scout is moving through Arab territory

IBT Zzzz

1910 BC Turn 46
Moscow grows do the same MM thing (slider up)
Settler makes it to the costal iron spot

IBT Zzzz

1870 BC Turn 47
Found Port du Fer

IBT same

1830 BC Turn 48
Worker finishes road and moves to BG west of St Pete's
scout same as before

IBT Zzzz

1790 BC Turn 49
Worker starts on mine
St Pete's grows and builds new warrior.
New citizen works the forest for a warrior in 4 and new warrior starts moving to Port du Fer

IBT Zzzz

1750 BC Turn 50
Settler built and moves towards St Pete's
St Pete's citizens start working both BG fro warrior in 3 (same as if he worked the forest but n extra food)
Moscows goes back to Growth set up

 

[Aabraxan]

Sal, that's fine. Like I said, I'm not trying to rush anyone. I'm up in CBob and it'll be a day or two before I can even play that one. If I get to it before my turn comes up in this one again, I'll go ahead and replay, with more attention to detail.

 

[Salarakas]

I got it then and will play later today (in 3-4 hours or so).

 

[Salarakas]

The good news:
-we're still alive
-we have a settler heading towards the ivory
-we're only down math to two civs

The bad news:
-we've lost a lot of precious time and it shows
-the Dutch have built a city right next to our capital
-our military situation is dreadful


Turn 0 - 1750BC
-check the tech status:
The Netherlands - even
Arabia - down masonry
Hittites - down masonry and horseback riding
Celts - down masonry and horseback riding


-some minor micromanagement:
-Moscow needs 4 food to grow but is adjusted to +3. Change a citizen from a mined BG to irrigated wine in order to grow next turn.
-change St. Petersburg to work two +3 food tiles (unimproved wheat and irrigated wine). We want it to grow fast. I'll probably change the wheat citizen to a BG once it's mined
-think about starting a prebuild in St. Petes for SoZ but realize we don't even have masonry yet. In any case we need to start now or we'll probably miss SoZ so change it to Oracle for the time being

IBT: a Dutch settler escorted by 2 warriors wants the iron too

Turn 1 - 1725BC
-Moscow grows to size 5, lux slider to 10% to deal with unhappiness. Change the citizens to work the 3 irrigated wines for +5 food again. St. Petes has to settle for unimproved wheat and a BG that doesn't have a mine yet
-build Iron Town where the settler stands
-a worker finishes mining a BG near Moscow. Not really sure what to do with it. It can't move in any useful square in one that we would want to improve now. We could chop the forest for 10 shields but then again it might prove useful. I decide to waste a turn and move it closer to Iron Town.
-writing in 3

Turn 2 - 1700BC
-the Arabs know horseback riding too
-the Dutch settler moves to the jungle area
-lowering the lux slider won't help, we need 90% to get writing in 2


IBT - the Hittites demand 21 gold. I give in of course. This is exactly why keeping "large" amounts of money in the beginning just doesn't do us any good. Spend it all I say.


Turn 3 - 1675BC
-Moscow grows to size 6 and I have to raise the lux slider to 20%. Growth in 2, settler in 2... perfect.
-we still need max science (80% now) to get writing in 1
-St. Petes needs 4 food to grow and is currently making +3. Change a citizen from the wheat tile to an unimproved BG for +2 food and 1 extra shield.

Turn 4 - 1650BC
-writing is in. Where to go next? The Dutch and the Hittites know it already. Philosophy would take only 13 turns. I'd say we have an excellent chance of getting it first and getting some free tech. We can then most definately do some nice trades and get even with the AI. It's a bit of a gamble but worth it in my opinion.
-writing and all our gold won't get us both masonry and horseback riding from the Arabs or the Celts. Get one for each and some spare cash from the Arabs too. Hate to trade such an expensive tech for so cheap but we have no choice here. The Celts and the Hittites have mathematics already.
-Moscow needs just 4 shields to complete the settler so change a citizen from roaded and mined BG to a roaded grassland next to a river for 1 extra commerce
-since our cash will be demanded by the AI anyway decide to spend some of it in on something useful - build an embassy with the Hittites



Turn 5 - 1625BC
-this is not good. The Dutch settler didn't build a town in the jungle area but is heading towards OUR northern area where the ivory is.
-St Petes grows to size 3
-Moscow settler->warrior
-move the settler towards the ivory, accompany it with a warrior (wish I had a better unit to guard it with)
-build an embassy with the Dutch



Turn 6 - 1600BC
-our settler is now in a good place to form a city but if I do that the Dutch will get the ivory. Do some math and come to the conclusion that we can build a city next to the other wheat AND move the next settler to the ivory just before the Dutch get there.
-Iron Town warrior->worker. I hate building just warriors but we need settler escorts and happiness help for Moscow

Turn 7 - 1750BC
-found Rostov

Turn 8 - 1550BC
-the Dutch found a town 4SE of Moscow. It sucks having an enemy town so close to our capital but it's still better than losing the ivory to them.

Turn 9 - 1525BC
-zzz

Turn 10 - 2500BC
-zzz




Some notes for the next player:
-watch our treasury very closely. Never let it drop below 0 or we'll lose something like the granary in Moscow.
-when we get philosophy choose one of the most expensive techs (map making, literature, polytheism), not some cheap tech like mathematics
-our military situation is appalling. We only have warriors and very few of them. If someone decides to attack us we're dead.
-Rostov can work either the unimproved wheat for +3 food or a mined BG for shields
-don't mine the tile 1S of St Petersburg. We want to irrigate it so that we can irrigate the wheat next to St Petes and then continue the irrigation line all the way to the plains area near the ivory
-we should be able to get three more cities before we run out of space. After that we need to start a war with someone. Get that iron hooked up soonish so that we can build some swords
-we only have 2 workers, we need more. Feel free to change what the towns are building at the moment.

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment: I wouldn't worry about the Dutch city near Moscow; it looks to be exactly where you would want it to be if it was yours. So let their workers improve the land around it, then take it as a ready made city when it suits your' purpose.

I am a little surprised though, that you haven't yet placed a city NE of Moscow; with all that BG, it would be shield rich, steady growing, and a relatively incorrupt city. All in all, an ideal spot for a Wonder pre-build, or for churning-out military.

And you definitely need more workers.

 

[Tribute]

How about expanding south for 2 cities? I think you can surround the Dutch that way. It'll also make declaring war on them easier. And you've got the north to yourselves anyways. Of course, NE of Moscow (as said above) and far NW near the ivory should be taken as soon as possible.

 

[Salarakas]

Another note for the next player: switch St. Petersburg to a palace (prebuild for the SoZ), I forgot to change it when I traded for masonry.

I wouldn't worry about the Dutch city near Moscow; it looks to be exactly where you would want it to be if it was yours. So let their workers improve the land around it, then take it as a ready made city when it suits your' purpose.

True. It has been a very long time since I last had an AI build a city right next to my capital though. Feels very weird.

I am a little surprised though, that you haven't yet placed a city NE of Moscow; with all that BG, it would be shield rich, steady growing, and a relatively incorrupt city. All in all, an ideal spot for a Wonder pre-build, or for churning-out military.

It is a good place indeed but settling there has been delayed because we needed to claim the iron spot. Rostov isn't in the best of places but I was pretty much forced to settle there or else the Dutch would have put their city in a worse place.

And you definitely need more workers.[/delurk]

Definately. Iron town could build one next IBT so be sure to switch it before pressing enter. That worker could chop the forest then to speed up the next build. I'd go for a barracks or a spearman/archer next. Probably a barracks and then start working on some proper troops. We're not going to fight anybody with archers so only build them if you need to fight barbarians and can't wait. Spearmen are useful in border towns but our main focus will be on swordsmen of course.