Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[mr_2_you]

My understanding of SGs is that you take your lumps and live with them.

noted. 2nd lesson learned.

 

[Bucephalus]

Phaedo has asked me to inform the team that he's having trouble accessing CFC at the moment.

 

[Aabraxan]

Sorry to hear that Phaedo's having trouble. Hopefully, he'll be back soon. Assuming that his first page roster is correct, Buce, you're up.

@Mr.2 -- As I was the one you quoted in your response, it seems like I should say something about the reload. I never intended to sound harsh and hope that I did not. Nobody cares if you save & reload in your single-player games. I reload in my solo games for learning purposes on a fairly regular basis. But you're not the first and won't be the last to make that mistake. Nobody's going to take your birthday away.

@ the rest -- Now comes the question of what to do with the save. Mr_2_You saved and reloaded. If we go back and replay as though it never happened, we have spoiler information. I say we move forward and play it as though the reload didn't happen.

 

[Salarakas]

I agree that we should just play on. This game was won long ago and this little thing won't affect that in any way. Perhaps we win a turn earlier that we would otherwise but that's it. It's Phaedo's game though but I seriously doubt he would want a replay or anything like that. If we want to punish ourselves a bit we could disband the next couple of cossacks we build or something similar.

Buce can you take the save or are you busy with something else?

 

[Bucephalus]

No, I'm sorry; it's a question of principle. Re-loading is cheating, regardless of whether it was worth the effort or not, and as such I will not play from a reloaded game. I shall revert to lurker status.

 

[Salarakas]

Well well... I guess this situation needs a decision from Phaedo but he can't access the site for whatever reason. I believe we should wait for him to return before doing anything to the game, however long that might take.

Aabraxan, what do you think?

 

[Aabraxan]

I agree. Wait for Phaedo before proceeding. Given that this is a TDG, I'm not as strict about reloads as Bucephalus, but I can understand his stance.

@Bucephalus -- Thanks for sitting in. It was a big help.

 

[Bucephalus]

@Bucephalus -- Thanks for sitting in. It was a big help.

No worries, it was my pleasure.

I agree. Wait for Phaedo before proceeding. Given that this is a TDG, I'm not as strict about reloads as Bucephalus, but I can understand his stance.

The reason that I take this stance is all to do with principal, nothing personal.
If we accept that re-loading is OK on this occasion because it didn't really change much, then a precedent is established; it allows us to pose the same question for every bad move we make, every bad run of RNG we have, every Wonder that we lose the race to, every battle that we lose...... "shall we reload?"

We can live with mistakes; they pose new challenges, and offer opportunities to learn from them. But it is never acceptable to re-load them.

Edit: I should add that all of the above only applies to SG's; I'm not trying to impose my version of morality on anyone's solo games.

 

[Aabraxan]

The reason that I take this stance is all to do with principal, nothing personal.
If we accept that re-loading is OK on this occasion because it didn't really change much, then a precedent is established; it allows us to pose the same question for every bad move we make, every bad run of RNG we have, every Wonder that we lose the race to, every battle that we lose...... "shall we reload?"

We can live with mistakes; they pose new challenges, and offer opportunities to learn from them. But it is never acceptable to re-load them.

Edit: I should add that all of the above only applies to SG's; I'm not trying to impose my version of morality on anyone's solo games.

I don't have any problem with the position you've taken & didn't take it personally. Were this a standard SG, multiplayer or GOTM, I'd agree. I'm just more lenient because it's a TDG. It has nothing to do with whether the reload changed the outcome.

Edit: I should add that it just seemed like Mr_2_You's mistake was just one of carrying over his solo-game practices to an SG, rather than one of real dishonesty.

 

[Phaedo]

Sorry I took so long. I am still haveing trouble accessing from my home pc but it seems I can check it at work. It takes a while to load up but it's possible.

I was informed of the discussion taking place and I wanted to get back as quickly as possible, sorry for the delay.

After considering things, I think Mr_2 should replay and let the riots happen. I think this is the best choice for a number of reasoins. First, there is a principal involved. I don't think Mr_2 was doing anything intentionally wrong and I understand the pressure not to let down the team (I certainly have been tempted) but nevertheless, it ought not to happen. Second, we are not in a huge rush to finish. Taking a little more time for Mr_2 to replay his turns won't be that big a deal. Finally, I think the TDG factor tends to lean in favour of Mr_2 replaying. There are definately learnig opportunities in how to deal with unhappiness and riots. As for the spoiler info.. I'm not sure but there wasn't much info other than the galley exploration (if I recall). Mr_2 will just have to try to make sure he follows the same exploreation path.

So that's my call. I hope it doesn't upset anyone. Everyone seems to be civil and relatively objective in the posts so I hope it won't ruffle feathers.

I'll be back when I can figure out what's going on with my pc from home. I recently changed my provider and I think my GF erased all the cookies on my PC so that may be the problem

 

[Aabraxan]

I can sure sympathize with the pc troubles you're having, Phaedo. Hope you get them resolved soon.

As to the replay, I don't have any problems with the call. I looked for more posts by Mr_2_You, and it looks like he hasn't posted since he last quoted me. I hope we haven't scared him off.

As Phaedo is having access issues, I've taken the liberty of PMing Mr_2_You to let him know that Phaedo has weighed in.

 

[mr_2_you]

i haven't been scared off! i figured i was better off letting you guys hash it out.

i'll also agree with phaedo that the best course is to replay the turns. also, i think the only 'spoiler' information is geographic in nature. i will do my best to follow the same path, build the same units / structures.

i had no idea the fallout for my decision would be so severe. i thought that letting 10-12 cities riot would surely earn me a much more severe scolding than the reload scenario.

i'll replay from the 'oracle incident' and post my save tonight.

given the new turn of events, are you still opting out bucephalus?

 

[Bucephalus]

given the new turn of events, are you still opting out bucephalus?

No, Phaedo's decision is an honourable one.

I had no idea the fallout for my decision would be so severe. i thought that letting 10-12 cities riot would surely earn me a much more severe scolding than the reload scenario.

Well, yes it might; I've had my head bitten off a few times, and I've ranted more than once myself. It's hard to expose your mistakes and thought processes to public scrutiny, to justify every trade or Worker move. I dread the 'log' far more than the turns.

But it's that that drives the learning process. The public scrutiny means that our mistakes don't go unnoticed, as they might in a solo game. The mistake may present a new challenge; overcoming that challenge, with your team-mates' help, helps to make you (and them) a better player.

And you will learn more from your mistakes than you will from your successes; I 'll bet you never again forget when the 'Oracle' expires.

 

[Aabraxan]

given the new turn of events, are you still opting out bucephalus?

No, Phaedo's decision is an honourable one.

I certainly don't want to quibble, because I am glad to have you back in the game, Buce, but why didn't you just say, "No, the honourable thing to do is replay with the riots?" I had thought that to be as much of a breach as playing forward . . . I certainly never intended to suggest the dishonorable alternative.

i had no idea the fallout for my decision would be so severe. i thought that letting 10-12 cities riot would surely earn me a much more severe scolding than the reload scenario.

Well, yes it might; . . . . I dread the 'log' far more than the turns. But it's that that drives the learning process. The public scrutiny means that our mistakes don't go unnoticed, as they might in a solo game. . . . .

I've got to agree with Bucephalus here. That public scrutiny will make you pay much closer attention to the details.

 

[Bucephalus]

I certainly don't want to quibble, because I am glad to have you back in the game, Buce, but why didn't you just say, "No, the honourable thing to do is replay with the riots?" I had thought that to be as much of a breach as playing forward . . . I certainly never intended to suggest the dishonorable alternative.

I didn't consider it to be my position to say what we should or shouldn't do; that IMO was always going to be down to Phaedo. And, had I expressed an opinion, it would have implied that I was prepared to abide by a majority decision and play on, which I was not prepared to do.

There is no inherent right or wrong about about questions of morality; it's a personal thing, like honour. I don't question your honour because you were willing to play on; you were clear on what you thought and remained true to it. Had I played on, it would have been to go against my principles, and that is what would have dishonoured me.

 

[mr_2_you]

New save Here


revised turn log:


oracle expired previous turn

turn 8 - 630 AD
lugdunum, iron town, tyrana, riverton all riot because the oracle expired. i adj lux slider to 10% and give

lugdunum a clown to keep people happy
more cossacks produced
i add west wing to the palace the palace
more worker movement, chopping some jungle further away from core
lugdunum has and a clown
no change in techs, arab peace treaty renegotiable next turn

IBT - germany dislikes our explorations. i apologize

turn 9 - 640 AD
rotterdam finishes barracks, builds cossack
tyrana finsh marketplace, build barracks
riverton finishes courthouse, builds cannon
disband sword in fishing town to hurry along harbor
our cossacks are still 2-3 turns away from reaching the arabs. lucky bastards.
found chelyabinsk right next to arabs, build harbor (tundra on coast with whale! )
kadesh and adana get hooked up to lux, lose clowns
tver', medina get a science dudes
lux at 10%, sci at 50% we're still at +118 per turn with education in 3 turns

IBT - germans building sun tzu's

turn 10 - 650 AD
lugdunum produces settler, i think i already have all the red dots occupied.....
iron town to build cossack
yaroslv'l finishes courthouse, builds barracks
disband med inf in fishing town
found town of tobol'sk, begin work on settler
lugdunum gets a scientist
i do NOT declare war on arabs, leaving that to the next player this time. our cossacks still not close enough

to arabs, but their time will come

i used my previous turnset log to recreate the builds. i think i made better use of the lux slider, only going

to 10% this time and adding a single clown. the aftermath of the oracle expiration was not as bad as i thought. we didn't finish the pentagon

notes for next player : i have a bunch of workers clearing jungle ... it seemed the most productive thing to do and as close to the core as possible to do it. we have an unconnected city in the SE with a couple workers roading their way there. you have the option of declaring war on the arabs this turn or the next. i didn't move the cossacks as efficiently this turn (missed a roaded tile!) so double check to see if they're within strinking range first.

 

[Salarakas]

lugdunum, iron town, tyrana, riverton all riot because the oracle expired

That wasn't so bad. Here's a trick that's useful in situations like these. When the first town riots, zoom into the city and fix the situation with specialists. Then, instead of exiting the town view just scroll ahead and fix all the other towns that would riot too.

we didn't finish the pentagon

This gives us a chance of discussing the Pentagon issue It's still possible to switch the build to a Military Academy which would give us stronger armies and the ability to build them too. Which do you guys think is better - stronger armies or bigger armies? At first thought the Pentagon sounds nicer but then again, if we do go for galleons after all, we could move the armies around. We might win quicker that way. With the Pentagon the armies would be stuck wherever we drop them.

 

[Aabraxan]

This gives us a chance of discussing the Pentagon issue. It's still possible to switch the build to a Military Academy which would give us stronger armies and the ability to build them too. Which do you guys think is better - stronger armies or bigger armies? At first thought the Pentagon sounds nicer but then again, if we do go for galleons after all, we could move the armies around. We might win quicker that way. With the Pentagon the armies would be stuck wherever we drop them.

I'd say the Military Academy. It well may be that we don't have enough time left in this game to build a lot of armies, but I like being able to, nonetheless. If we should hit a snag and run into a serious conflict, being able to build armies could be a tremendous help. A couple of cossack armies could be a truly frightening proposition. I know that armies take a long time to build, but they also survive very, very well. And building 3-unit armies that don't get stuck wherever we drop them would, IMHO, be better than building 4-unit armies that do.

And Mr_2_You, I can't look at the save from work, but it looks like a good set.

 

[mr_2_you]

our cossacks are going to cut through the pikemen defenders like a hot knife through butter. IMO it doesn't matter which we build, if not a great wonder instead.

 

[Aabraxan]

IBT - we learn theology, education in 4 turns with science at 70%

lux at 10%, sci at 50% we're still at +118 per turn with education in 3 turns

Somehow I missed these in my first passes through the turnlogs. Have we given up on giving away the GLib and then reclaiming? If we can go ahead and conquer our own continent now, I see little reason to keep someone alive as "Custodian of the Great Library," but I hadn't realized we were moving ahead with learning education.

We may not need cossack armies, but they'd be an awful lot of fun.

Mr2 made a comment about a possible great wonder. Any good ones on the table?