[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[IvoryPavane]

Moving the cap will be expensive enough that I doubt you're going to want to do it too often, but hopefully stays cheap enough that you're willing to do it a couple times to get the boosts from it.

From my perspective, I’d want to do it at least twice. Once when I’ve established myself on my home continent, move to another continent and power up with the colonise policy cards, and while my main cities benefit, use the loyalty bonus to start spreading across my new continent and once established there, move to a third continent to allow both cities to start getting the benefit.

Then I’d probably move once or twice more to put pressure on a particularly vulnerable looking city...

 

[Ziad]

A major advantage of moving your capital will be expansionism. Once your core cities are set on one continent, you can move to another and build a new empire from scratch without caring about loyalty.

Phoenicia is meant for the expansionist empire builder that does not need domination, but can be used for it if the situation calls for it.

My kind of gameplay.

All your coast are belong to us.

 

[Weklim]

I am so excited about Phoenicia now!!

My favorite gameplay style is to have a worldwide empire that takes advantage of Colonial Taxes and Casa de Contratacion as much as possible. The problem is that can very start dependant. Getting a start locked in a big continent is basically game over while starting on a continent fault line is ideal.

Now with Pheonicia, I can make any start work! I'm so happy. It's like they made the perfect civ for me.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

I am a bit surprised people think Phoenicia is so lacking in power (I do get that naval civs are seen as weaker) but was also surprised people found Mali weak as well. They both have one of the biggest advantages in the game, trade routes. Trade route spam is so strong, I mean its been consistently nerfed since the game launched. Not only are they getting extra from the gov't buildings but, with Phoenicia's settler spam they can just pump out cities all over and if they are near enough to water they don't have to be all that good of a spot on their own, as trade makes you much more the sum of your parts. Just drop a city, buy/build a Cothon and lighthouse and use the massive number of trade routes in 1 or a couple of core cities and they become massive powerhouses. They are strong and flexible being able to produce anything you are lacking. You don't need to even utilize the water all that much and you can still have an extremely strong and flexible empire. That is all without all the cap switching shenanigans that will arise with policy cards. Trade is the name of the game, and Phoenicia has that in spades.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I am so excited about Phoenicia now!!

My favorite gameplay style is to have a worldwide empire that takes advantage of Colonial Taxes and Casa de Contratacion as much as possible. The problem is that can very start dependant. Getting a start locked in a big continent is basically game over while starting on a continent fault line is ideal.

Now with Pheonicia, I can make any start work! I'm so happy. It's like they made the perfect civ for me.

For me, the Hallmark of a good Civ is when they hit on a sweet spot playstyle for people.

I really think the Civ design in this expansion has been outstanding

 

[bite]

https://twitter.com/EdBeach23/status/1090680733453246464?s=19

Correction: Dido's ability DOES move the original capital, affecting Dom victories and policy cards.

Well that does make things quite interesting

 

[Ziad]

I am a bit surprised people think Phoenicia is so lacking in power (I do get that naval civs are seen as weaker) but was also surprised people found Mali weak as well. They both have one of the biggest advantages in the game, trade routes. Trade route spam is so strong, I mean its been consistently nerfed since the game launched. Not only are they getting extra from the gov't buildings but, with Phoenicia's settler spam they can just pump out cities all over and if they are near enough to water they don't have to be all that good of a spot on their own, as trade makes you much more the sum of your parts. Just drop a city, buy/build a Cothon and lighthouse and use the massive number of trade routes in 1 or a couple of core cities and they become massive powerhouses. They are strong and flexible being able to produce anything you are lacking. You don't need to even utilize the water all that much and you can still have an extremely strong and flexible empire. That is all without all the cap switching shenanigans that will arise with policy cards. Trade is the name of the game, and Phoenicia has that in spades.

Lingering preconceptions from a previous expansion will do that.

As I've said multiple times in the thread, doubled yields on naval-only trade routes will incentivize coastal settling earlier in the game which is not only a positive for Phoenicia from a development perspective, but makes naval strength far more relevant.

And this is just one example.

Someone said that this civilization doesn't interact much with GS mechanics. Well it sure interacts a lot with GS changes and those aren't live yet.

 

[Pietato]

Anyone can settle on a coast. And other civs will also settle just off the coast and build a harbour. Additionally, most people set up trading cities designed to send their trade routes from, which could easily be a city with a harbour in GS.

I only major benefit I see for Phoenicia here is if internal trade routes from coastal city to coastal city go by boat, and are much improved. Even still, unless there is something major they have not revealed, coastal cities still do not match land cities, unless you have Auckland.

 

[Disgustipated]

And the last cost that should be added in is the cost of flood barriers. I have a feeling we are going to need them as Phoenicia. The ai doesn't seem to care much about CO2 emissions.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

Anyone can settle on a coast. And other civs will also settle just off the coast and build a harbour. Additionally, most people set up trading cities designed to send their trade routes from, which could easily be a city with a harbour in GS.

I only major benefit I see for Phoenicia here is if internal trade routes from coastal city to coastal city go by boat, and are much improved. Even still, unless there is something major they have not revealed, coastal cities still do not match land cities, unless you have Auckland.

Sure, but Phoenicia, who doesn't have to settle the coast that is only for loyalty benefit, can still settle faster with the boosts to settler production. As well, as long as they have access to water, on the coast or not, their extra cities have cheaper access to the lighthouse which provides more trade routes. So even if the city itself is garbage extra routes can provide a significant boost anywhere else in your empire. So while other civs can do what Phoenicia does, they will do it, much, much better.

 

[Ziad]

Anyone can settle on a coast.

Anyone can make corps and armies.
Anyone can build monuments.
Anyone can theme.

And other civs will also settle just off the coast and build a harbour. Additionally, most people set up trading cities designed to send their trade routes from, which could easily be a city with a harbour in GS.

Anyone can suboptimally build a Harbor while not being on the coast in the early game?

I thought people don't like Celestial Navigation

 

[Zaarin]

Anyone can suboptimally build a Harbor while not being on the coast in the early game?

Honestly, a half-price Harbor is one of the best things about Phoenicia; getting a Harbor up in new coastal cities is a pain.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

Honestly, a half-price Harbor is one of the best things about Phoenicia; getting a Harbor up in new coastal cities is a pain.

Right 1/2 price harbors or commercial hubs are super strong because they lead to faster markets or lighthouses which mean more trade routes or the ability to get those up in cities that aren't "perfect" locations.

 

[bbbt]

I thought people don't like Celestial Navigation

I think the main complaint is that it's now literally the last 'leaf' tech (i.e. it's only required to research for harbors, not as preq for other techs).

 

[Leathaface]

I've heard people saying that the music in the Feature Overview video is Phoenicia's theme, do you guys think this is true? It's hard to imagine the theme having nothing to do with Civ VI and every new Civ has been revealed.

 

[Guandao]

I've heard people saying that the music in the Feature Overview video is Phoenicia's theme, do you guys think this is true? It's hard to imagine the theme having nothing to do with Civ VI and every new Civ has been revealed.

Sounds like it, but I'm not impressed with the theme so far.

 

[God of Kings]

Imagine founding a city completely surrounded by mountains (plus a lake nearby just to have a Cothon) and move the capital to that city.

It would be the ultimate troll city.

 

[CultureManiac]

If you look closely at the preview video, when Phoenicia moves its capital (at about the 1 minute mark) the project takes only one turn, so the move is effectively instant. And if you look at the new capital you can see the palace appear, so it seems palace moves as well.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Imagine founding a city completely surrounded by mountains (plus a lake nearby just to have a Cothon) and move the capital to that city.

It would be the ultimate troll city.

And with Tunnels, it could happen. It could be your own little Shangri-la.

We still don't know if you can attack through tunnels. It could be impervious.

 

[Pietato]

Sure, but Phoenicia, who doesn't have to settle the coast that is only for loyalty benefit, can still settle faster with the boosts to settler production. As well, as long as they have access to water, on the coast or not, their extra cities have cheaper access to the lighthouse which provides more trade routes. So even if the city itself is garbage extra routes can provide a significant boost anywhere else in your empire. So while other civs can do what Phoenicia does, they will do it, much, much better.

But their trade routes are not actually better than the civs who get bonuses there. So how do they do it 'much, much better', especially with monumentality and chopping in the game?