[Extension] Pineappledan Tweaks for VP

[azum4roll]

Oh one more number, since once I start I just can't start

A common question about logistics is, with the -30% penalty, is there ever a normal time in the game where logistics is actually a drawback? Aka I would do less damage with 2 attacks than the 1 at no penalty?

This does happen when the ratio is less than 1/3. So against a CS 15, the unit (before the -30%) had a CS 5. So it normally has to be a pretty extremely difference, I most commonly see it on siege units in the later game, as there attacks against infantry can get pretty dinky.

An easier case: against Dauntless ships. I've had Camel Archers (from a horseless Arabia) do 0 damage against my ship (and 5 to the adjacent one )

 

[pineappledan]

New update posted.
Adds England rework,

• reworks White Tower to be an Ironworks replacement
• changes Ship of the Line Free Promotion (Breacher doesn't work on ranged units)

OP updated

Edit: holy hell, the Mongolia changes are fun. The Ordo is great; I'm keeping this.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I like the changes to England, and here are 2 things stand out so far:

• Ships of the Line are absolutely menacing because the first promotion lets you immediately take "Logistics". Along with "Indomitable" and "Splash", they are serious threats right from the get-go. I haven't got to fight with them yet, and only realized after receiving a free unit from winning "Treasure Fleet". I'm interested to see how things would fare in a clash against Spanish Armada.

• White Tower yields could probably start at 50 instead of 25 and I don't think it'd be too strong, though I can't really gauge this fully until we see how the new spying tweaks play out.

 

[pineappledan]

I forgot that indomitable is still a prereq for logistics.
Just giving the ship of the line back it’s logistics promo would be a nerf to what we have now; maybe I just do that?

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I forgot that indomitable is still a prereq for logistics.
Just giving the ship of the line back it’s logistics promo would be a nerf to what we have now; maybe I just do that?

Yeah, I can't 100% envision the naval promo tree atm, but that should be good.

Despite starting several games since you've re-released this modmod, I haven't been able to make it past mid-game for various unrelated reasons, but this has allowed me to experience how some of the early unit tweaks are generally performing -- the handful of games has coincidentally included multiple wars against Legions/Berserkers/Mohawk. My impressions so far are overall good:

• Archers looked a bit strong on paper, and I haven't specifically tried a rush yet, but I think they're in a better spot now. They generally hold up a tad better now, but are still vulnerable to spears and horsemen so their balance seems solid.

• Although I'd agree that Comp bows were arguably the most efficient unit during the early stages, the CS nerf has me feeling a bit 'meh' in-game. I'll continue to assess them before forming a solid opinion.

• Scouts feel nice at 10 CS, and the promotion tweaks are great -- I love being able to venture atop mountains with high leveled units! I'm looking forward to eventually trying the new lines.

• Swordsmen are performing really well, and "Sidearm" has me actively choosing "Shock" instead of strictly "Drill" line. Mohawk Warriors are intimidating beasts, but Roman Legion are terrifying monsters. They have the highest CS + Pilum + Cover + Sidearm which makes them practically indomitable when fighting on equal terms. It seems weird to leave Legion at 18, yet lower the Kris to 16; I might try Legion at 17 because Cover + Sidearm is extremely tanky. Thank you for buffing the Berserker, though, as it's much more formidable now.

• Chariots are probably fine (I haven't really used them), but I think Skirmishers might benefit from another +1 RCS. Maybe it's because I'd been fighting so many beefy swordsmen, but they seemed to be doing relatively dinky damage across the board -- Legion were taking around 3 damage... Heavy Skirmishers seem good, and it probably coincides with them having earned a promotion or two by that point. Regardless, I like the movement + promo changes.

I'll give some more feedback on other changes whenever I can get around to trying them. Great stuff overall, Dan!

 

[gwennog]

I really like the new scout and zeppelin lines, they should be integrated into VP.

 

[pineappledan]

v14 will be posted soon. It will contain more bug fixes for compatibility and changes for America's UB.

Ship of the line just has Logistics, and loses both splash and indomitable. Major nerf

 

[pineappledan]

Should America's 3 unique wonders be capturable? I had this idea that they could effectively work like World Wonders that only America could build, but maybe that means they should behave like actual World Wonders, and stay on conquest?

 

[Stalker0]

Should America's 3 unique wonders be capturable? I had this idea that they could effectively work like World Wonders that only America could build, but maybe that means they should behave like actual World Wonders, and stay on conquest?

I would do it however Venice works right now, I think that's the closest comparison.

 

[pineappledan]

I would do it however Venice works right now, I think that's the closest comparison.

right now, venice requires the 2nd wonder be built in the same building as San Marco, while the American wonders can be built anywhere on empire (regardless of where independence hall is). The venice wonders only cost 250 with a NumCityCostMod, which is kinda pointless because puppets don’t contribute to that. America’s wonders have cost 1500 and don’t scale on empire size right now.

is mirroring venice desireable? Shouldn’t we try to distinguish them from each other, rather than copy?

 

[Snipergw]

Being able to take the unique wonder from America is a unique, fun, feel-good situation for players playing against America, which seems good.

Are you able to build one of the other ones if you lose the one you built first? If that is the case, there's a small abuseable edge-case, but with how punishing losing a city and then recapturing it is, it probably doesn't matter.

 

[pineappledan]

The way it is coded now, if you lose your wonder you cannot build another one to replace it

 

[Tekamthi]

• Can only attack cities

• Can detect Submarines (note: immune to subs, because they are technically land units)

• +33% Defense vs all units (but not cities)

Great to see the zeppelin line being updated! Particularly like the movement changes, of course Overall aligns very closely with my vision for these units. Besides the very simple change I made in 'perfidious recon', I've got a similar setup going in an ever-unfinished mod, similarly using this zeppelin art asset, but transitioning into helicopters instead of UAV. On that front I'm looking to have these units enabled by a corporation-like building. Anyway enjoy this approach as well.

PD, I'm curious about your reasoning with the above quoted traits, in particular the bolded portions... I can infer my own gameplay reasons for these, just curious on your take...

In this sense, the following reference comes to mind -- seems they were not truly immune to subs nor restricted to attacking cities:
"On the night of July 18, 1943, the K-74 was protecting ships through the Florida Straits. The crew picked up a contact on K-74’s radar and began searching the area for a U-boat. They quickly found the U-134 silhouetted against the water by moonlight. Although still 20 miles from the convoy, command pilot Lt. Nelson G. Grills determined that the submarine did pose a threat. They maneuvered the K-74 into a position to make an attack run with the ship’s depth charges before the U-134 opened fire with machine guns and its deck gun. Although it suffered some damage, the K-74 flew over the U-134 only to have its depth charge fail to drop. It managed to fire 100 rounds of .50-caliber machine gun bullets at the submarine, but the machine gun fire the K-74 sustained from the submarine took a significant toll. The K-74’s starboard engine caught fire, though it was quickly extinguished, and holes in the blimp caused it to quickly lose altitude. It plunged into the sea shortly before midnight."
https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/k-ships-vs-u-boats

There is another set of airship art on CF but I've never been able to get it working in-game -- perhaps someone with more skill for these things could tweak it to represent the k-class airship: https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/civ5-great-war-airship.21998/

 

[pineappledan]

Mainly the gameplay reasons with an ad hoc historical justification. Airships were far more effective at tracking and spotting navy and troop movements than they were at engaging enemies. I had to give them a CS and be able to hit something or else the AI would handle them like civilian units. OnlyDefensive, even with a CS score, makes the unit a civilian. I also tried giving them an RCS, but CityAttackOnly restricts melee attacks exclusively, so the airship could hit any target without restriction

the city attack is a nod to the zeppelin night raids. Airships had to stay high up to escape being taken out by small arms fire, but that also meant they couldn’t hope to hit anything with dumb bombs or flechettes unless their target was the size of an entire city. So I made them only slightly stronger than the contemporary melee unit, way more expensive, and game them a much more passive role to gain steady XP. They can be used like the old Hunnic battering ram, but that’s basically only if you are styling on your enemy, since they don’t actually have the siege promotion to make that tenable.

the only available combat niche I saw for them was basically to be the equivalent of a StarCraft overlord/observer/science vessel.

aaaand I had to make a choice about whether to make them a unique unitcombat. I can’t code new combat animations for the combat class, but I deemed that a worthwhile trade for the ability to make a unique promotion line and proper interaction with interception units. Thinking on it more though, I could have scavenged the helicopter unitcombat....

 

[pineappledan]

There is another set of airship art on CF but I've never been able to get it working in-game -- perhaps someone with more skill for these things could tweak it to represent the k-class airship: https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/civ5-great-war-airship.21998/

With the Zeppelin in the same era, I wouldn’t bother, but it’s cool there is the option of another airship model.

mid someone were so inclined, perhaps they could make that the base airship unit and give Germany a unique zeppelin to replace it? I would sooner give them a unique u-boat tho

 

[R3P0]

With the Zeppelin in the same era, I wouldn’t bother, but it’s cool there is the option of another airship model.

mid someone were so inclined, perhaps they could make that the base airship unit and give Germany a unique zeppelin to replace it? I would sooner give them a unique u-boat tho

u-boat for Germany was as essential for them as the B2 Bomber was for the US, and Archers for the Romans, even Redcoats for the British, Zero for Japan etc.

 

[pineappledan]

New update posted:
America:
Sun Records replaced with Hoover Dam
Smithsonian theming bonus increased to 25
Smithsonian now boosts Museums and Research Labs
West Point now boosts Military Academies and Military Bases

China:
Mandate of Heaven now triggers for every 5population (up from 8)
Paper maker now gives +2 when a new GW is created (up from 1)

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Airship line is getting -50% attack against cities from embarkation, rendering them ineffective; Dirigible at full health was losing half its HP against a castled city without garrison. I had surveillance promos, not city attack, but it still didn't feel right.

Commandos are awesome! I found a ruin with my Shoshone Explorer just after teching Compass, and was able to immediately upgrade into Commando an entire era before Railroad. I had fun darting in and out of the woods/mountains, right through the thick of an Iroquois warpath, with very little he could do to stop me. The unit wasn't quite invincible, but it certainly allowed for some bad*** gameplay, considering it was the single strongest unit on the board for over 50+ turns.

Also, for clarification, despite removing Cover I from all swords in exchange for Sidearm, are Legion supposed to retain Cover II or not? I'm still confused as to what the intentions are with the Kris/Mohawk/Legion CS disparity, because 18CS + Pilum + Sidearm + Cover II is way too OP. The in-game text still says they have Cover II, but I assume you want it removed, thus why you still have them at 18CS.

 

[Alpharius]

First off, kudos for the Great Work (heh) on China. I like that the civ is no longer confused on whether it likes to be tall or wide.

One issue I have is regarding the tooltip. The +1 culture and food from the UA seems to be under "yields from building" instead of "yields from trait" on the city view.

 

[pineappledan]

Airship line is getting -50% attack against cities from embarkation, rendering them ineffective; Dirigible at full health was losing half its HP against a castled city without garrison. I had surveillance promos, not city attack, but it still didn't feel right.

Hmm. I could probably give the Airships promotion "amphibious" so they ignore the embarked penalty when attacking from sea.
Perhaps I should boost the CS to 50? Airship line are all units where I really have no jumping off point for how to balance their power.

Commandos are awesome! I found a ruin with my Shoshone Explorer just after teching Compass, and was able to immediately upgrade into Commando an entire era before Railroad. I had fun darting in and out of the woods/mountains, right through the thick of an Iroquois warpath, with very little he could do to stop me. The unit wasn't quite invincible, but it certainly allowed for some bad*** gameplay, considering it was the single strongest unit on the board for over 50+ turns.

Glad to hear that is working well

Also, for clarification, despite removing Cover I from all swords in exchange for Sidearm, are Legion supposed to retain Cover II or not? I'm still confused as to what the intentions are with the Kris/Mohawk/Legion CS disparity, because 18CS + Pilum + Sidearm + Cover II is way too OP. The in-game text still says they have Cover II, but I assume you want it removed, thus why you still have them at 18CS.

In base VP legions are 18. Every other sword is only 17. That's a difference of 1CS on 1 of 3 unique units. Even the Jaguar gets +2 over the warrior, that's 33% more CS. The cap on Spears is Hoplites at +2.
I had a problem with the design space surrounding Legion and how narrow the gap was between the strongest sword and everyone else. With me adding 4 more unique swords (Eagle, Maccabee, Gadrauht, Medjay) I hated this binary between the strongest and weakest CS for this 1 -- and only this 1 -- unit type.

The Legion has Cover I, not Cover II. They used to have both, but I replaced 1 with sidearm. And yes, Rome's UU is bonkers, but considering they have no other combat bonuses and are still a domination civ, I think that's okay.

One issue I have is regarding the tooltip. The +1 culture and food from the UA seems to be under "yields from building" instead of "yields from trait" on the city view.

The China changes use dummy buildings to give the UA bonuses, so they will appear as building yields, yes. That's not going to change unless this somehow gets DLL integration.