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Planning cIV BTS MTDG III

Discussion in 'Civ4 -ISDG 2012' started by Sommerswerd, Aug 17, 2011.

  1. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    I don't suppose this is the right time to request that everyone chill?

    The settings are what they are. Let's leave them be, and not get in a huff over perceived slights. It's not fair to change things in the middle of a pick. Even if some teams plan for such an eventuality, not all will. The insults are just this discussion descending from the original purpose. The game has moved on from here. Can't we do the same?
     
  2. grant2004

    grant2004 Citizen

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    :goodjob: Voice of reason there.

    If we all insist on continuing to debate the settings we don't agree with and trying to change things after voting has concluded we're only going to make things worse. Trust me, I have more than a few settings I'd be happy to see changed. :nuke: Teams are picking their leaders and civs on the basis of what has been decided, it's time to turn our focus to that activity, and play with what unambiguous majorities have voted on.
     
  3. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Moderator Action: Yeah, let's leave the fight for the game ;) No one actually wins anything by finger-pointing and ego boosting anyway ... ;)
     
  4. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Civplayers picked BTW so RB is up (This time I'm not mistaken;)).

    Hopefully they are aware and have been talking about their pick:)

    And I can't believe nobody said this already:confused: Ozzy that was a d@mn cool picture for your "draft choice":clap:

    Wish I had some photoshop skillz:(
     
  5. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    Amen! It cracked me up. :lol:
     
  6. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

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    Also because a DM rule in a online simultaneous MP game is completely unenforceable. Using the logic that if it requires effort outside of the game, all diplomacy between teams should be banned as well.

    I don't expect to change anyone's vote, I just want people to know what they're getting themselves into. It's a rarely used mechanic, so most people simply don't realise just how broken it is.

    I'm sure Sommers can speak for himself, no need to defend him. Not even sure why he needs defending though. :confused:

    So, I'm not allowed to make a prediction about the outcome of the game, but you can make predictions about outcome of the game. Righto mate.

    Either way, it's not about restricting the game to make it an optimization puzzle, they're boring. It's about removing a particular mechanic that is broken. As r_rolo said a few pages back, it's cheaper to change an entire civ's civics than to send a single city into revolt. Clearly it isn't balanced.

    I'm still enthusiastic about the game, I've been involved with every MTDG here so far and I don't plan for that to change. I'm just vehemently opposed to being able to use the civic switching spy missions, because I don't believe them to be fair or balanced.
     
  7. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Team UniversCiv, you're up. :)
     
  8. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Effort =/= skill. To be online every time the turn switches requires to throw your personal life and be present. This is effort, not a skill. What skill requires to be online?

    Whether on the other hand, anyone can do efforts on diplomacy, but only those who show skills will succeed in it ;) Like saying sending 1000 identical messages to someone (requires efforts) can make one decide in your favor instead of sending just one, but meaningful and beneficial proposal (requires skill).

    Yes, yes, I think even the dead heard already. As for Sommers, this is how they taught me from a child - to not allow anyone speak insulting untruths about my friends to me :)

    I made a counter- prophecy. For me it is normal the players to come with positive feelings and expectations for a game. After all, it is just a game. Why would you bother playing it if you think you will get negative feelings out of it? I can agree that in life most of the time we must do what we need to do instead of what we want to do, but this are the games for - to do what we want and what we enjoy, right? Why so negative? Negative feelings can poison other players experience as well. This is my point. We are here to have some fun and not tremble in fear and expect how the game will be ruined.

    At last one thing on which I am 100% with you.

    I can agree that it is powerful as a tool, but I think all this forth and back with me giving you examples of how one can counter it and what can be the negatives of using it have found your ear and you have seen my point and see this is not the baddest thing in the world. If not, well, I dont think I will ever try to convince you anyway. Sometimes things look very scary and powerful and then it turns out they are not so, just so - so. :) Just now I remembered one interesting story - around 400 BC the Greeks invented gastraphetes and it was believed it is so strong weapon, that whoever possess it can defeat anyone and after all armies have it, it will bring world peace (in Civ4 terms "overpowered" and "broken" :D. And for their way of fighting it was somewhat true. But after Alexander started to move east and encountered the eastern horse-archers tribes, it turned out that the gastraphetes is not so overpowered as they initially believed. This might be just the case with the CSM.

    Manly words. My kind of guy.

    Yes, I do understand your feelings and yet I cant do much against the votes of the teams, so we must start thinking how to play the game :)
     
  9. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    LOL!!! Nice announcement, LP!
     
  10. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

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    It requires skill to be able to orchestrate a lethal DM. Personally, even if I wanted to try and create a great DM opportunity and had the time to do so, I'd mess it up with my crap civ skills.

    Similarly, while you need the right skills to be good at diplomacy (which clearly I don't have :p) you also need a lot of time. In my experience, the more time you spend on diplomacy, the more likely you are to be successful on that front. It doesn't matter how good your skills are if you don't have the time to put into it.

    I never said anything about Sommers though.

    I enjoy playing these games, I do not want to see it die because of a poorly balanced mechanic being abused.

    I agree that you can make it less favourable, I don't agree that you can counter it.

    All I can say is I hope you're right that it doesn't break the game, but I am a naturally pessimistic person, .

    I know, I'm just having fun arguing til the actual interesting stuff starts. And, if I'm really lucky, a couple of the teams that voted for full espionage will change their mind and ban those 2 missions. ;)
     
  11. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    As one great civ player once said: "If you die due to a DM, then you were going to die anyway." It is a mechanism. If you play with it in mind, you will not be so unprepared and helpless when it comes. As far as for skills vs efforts, you give the extreme examples. Sure, it requires skills to orchestrate 1 great double-move, but far more annoying and disproportionally awarding will be if someone have the time to always be online and play before and after his opponent and then again before him in the new turn. As for diplomacy that you need time to make it, of course, it does not matter how good you are at something if you dont have time at all to do it. But skill is still required. Just like hooking up girls :). One make it naturally and scores on first date, others have to try with tens of girls and invest huge amount of time in each to get laid once :)

    Sorry, I was actually referring to other RB members who was upset how Sommers is "dictating" the rules and how everything is farce. Once you made clear you only speak for you and yourself only, I take note and differentiate the things.

    Me either. But I have not seen a game broken by CSM, where many games were broken because of cheating and players losing interest. I wont point names, but many of those who argue hot now will not be in the game after just few moths. CSM is something far far back in my list of things to worry for :)

    Ah, great! Just like much anything else in the world, it is almost impossible to counter (in the meaning defend completely) from anything. You just try your best to make the bad things less possible and probable and the goods you aim for. Simple as that. You cant be 100% sure a drunk truck driver will not smash your car, but still you wear safety belt, buy yourself a safer car and drive carefully, right? You cant protect your home 100% from burglars, but yet you lock it, put alarm, pay local neighbor guards, you buy a gun or a baseball bat and keep them at hand and so on. You just make it less favorable for the burglars to break in to your home.

    Oh, man, I think it became clear to everyone following the discussion :D Otherwise of course no normal player will ever hope the game to crash. Why would play it otherwise...

    Yeah, here the same. Arguing is almost for free if you have the time and the most important - fun :D

    However, I think we went too far to change rules from now on. But who knows... :)
     
  12. tobiasn

    tobiasn Warlord

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    Good to see this calming down, I think you made your points like 40 posts ago. But being right on the internet is as always of vast importance. :D Let's call it a tie.

    But about the tiebreaker - the actual votes:

    Mods: I think it would be good for everyone if you set some kind of ultimate deadline for the game settings. As has been pointed out several times already, stuff like ESP can be of real importance when picking leader/civ, and it some teams might reach their happy cap and go into revolt if we don't settle something soon.

    I'm quite sure that all teams would understand and appreciate if you cut through, set a deadline, and posted the final, un-changeable settings and ruleset.

    And yeah I'm not talking for my team (CFC) here, but I'm quite sure they'll appreciate this too.
     
  13. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

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    I think we've pretty much reached the end of where the debate/argument can go, so I won't persist with it any longer. Just on your point though...

    If the civic switch mission is only as powerful as you believe it to be, rather than how powerful I believe it to be, a change in voting for it to be banned wouldn't affect any picks. ;)

    All settings and the ruleset need to be finalised by the time the game is online, but until then minor changes should be possible. Espionage On/Off would be a major change, which shouldn't happen, but banning specific missions would be a minor change that should be allowed until the game actually starts. The discussion about the extent of allowable map trading falls into the same category.
     
  14. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Credit goes to waterbat. :)
     
  15. nabaxo

    nabaxo King

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    @Tobiasn, reminds me of this:
     
  16. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Well in response to this:
    Our Admin posted this:
    So clearly, as per our Admin, the fight over the settings is concluded, and the rest of the fighting is to take place in game. I will post the Final Settings today and ask for the thread to be stickied.
     
  17. tobiasn

    tobiasn Warlord

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    @nabaxo Exactly :D

    @Sommers I see some of the teams have a "not really really final vote" thingy in the vote thread, hence my call for deadline. But updating the final settings sticky seems like the way to go, yeah.
     
  18. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

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    Thanks. :D
     
  19. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    @ tobiasn
    There are 9 team-votes about rules, so every team has voted.
     
  20. Krill

    Krill Deity

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    Who said this? And I really hope it wasn't MGT.
     

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