Please fix the Democracy ideology

[TheSpaceCowboy]

Moderator Action: Just want to drop a preemptive note here, to keep the discussion civil and as much as possible centered on the mechanics/nomenclature in the context of the game. ~ LK

The Modern Age stream revealed that each of the Ideologies has its own tree.
For Democracy, the first tech/civic is eponymously called "Democracy"; all well and good.
But that unlocks "Liberalism", which itself unlocks "Progressivism"
Both of these are terms primarily associated with the political Left in America.
While some on the Right were trying to rehabilitate the phrase 'classical liberal' a few years back, for the most part the term 'liberal' is a synonym for Left wing an an antonym for Right wing
And while back when the parties weren't as ideologically divided, some Republicans like Teddy were described as 'Progressives', today its exclusively used for the Far Left.

Moreover, within the civics are traditions known as 'Fireside Chats', 'Welfare State', and 'New Deal'.
The 'Fireside Chats' were delivered by FDR, who pushed the country further to the Left than any other president of the 20th Century.
His agenda for doing so was referred to as the 'New Deal'.
It resulted in the establishment of our current Welfare State, generally supported by Democrats and opposed by Republicans.

It's extremely unfortunate that Democracy is only representative of the political Left.
This evidences a political bias and ideological blindness at Firaxis.
This is presumably not shared by their fanbase (CivFanatics skews heavily to the Left, but I imagine that the total number of players is much more evenly divided).
One wonders that if they had more conservatives on staff if this might've been corrected before being shown off.

Firaxis should correct this; before launch if possible, or in a patch post-launch if not.
Either the names of the civics and traditions could be changed to represent the common ground held by most in America and the West, or a fourth Ideology could be added to represent Conservatism.
The latter would be my personal preference.

 

[Jeppetto]

What do you want the Civics and Traditions to be called and inspired by?

 

[Krikkit1]

The Modern Age stream revealed that each of the Ideologies has its own tree.
For Democracy, the first tech/civic is eponymously called "Democracy"; all well and good.
But that unlocks "Liberalism", which itself unlocks "Progressivism"
Both of these are terms primarily associated with the political Left in America.
While some on the Right were trying to rehabilitate the phrase 'classical liberal' a few years back, for the most part the term 'liberal' is a synonym for Left wing an an antonym for Right wing
And while back when the parties weren't as ideologically divided, some Republicans like Teddy were described as 'Progressives', today its exclusively used for the Far Left.

Moreover, within the civics are traditions known as 'Fireside Chats', 'Welfare State', and 'New Deal'.
The 'Fireside Chats' were delivered by FDR, who pushed the country further to the Left than any other president of the 20th Century.
His agenda for doing so was referred to as the 'New Deal'.
It resulted in the establishment of our current Welfare State, generally supported by Democrats and opposed by Republicans.

It's extremely unfortunate that Democracy is only representative of the political Left.
This evidences a political bias and ideological blindness at Firaxis.
This is presumably not shared by their fanbase (CivFanatics skews heavily to the Left, but I imagine that the total number of players is much more evenly divided).
One wonders that if they had more conservatives on staff if this might've been corrected before being shown off.

Firaxis should correct this; before launch if possible, or in a patch post-launch if not.
Either the names of the civics and traditions could be changed to represent the common ground held by most in America and the West, or a fourth Ideology could be added to represent Conservatism.
The latter would be my personal preference.

Better saved for a fourth age since conservatism (as experienced in the lifetime of adult civ players) really is only something that started in the 50s.

 

[TheSpaceCowboy]

What do you want the Civics and Traditions to be called and inspired by?

A few days ago I imagined what William F. Buckley would play like as a Leader, and gave him Conservatism as a unique Ideology.
I tried to emphasis the three legs of the stool: Christian social policy, free markets, and military strength.
I made it overpowered to act as his unique ability, but a paired down version of it could work:

William F Buckley Jr.

Ability: National Review
His civilizations' unique Traditions are cheaper to research
Once unlocked, his civilizations' unique Traditions are always active and do not take up Social Policy slots.

In the Modern Age, Buckley is locked into a unique Ideology: Conservatism
Conservatism is ideologically allied with Democracy, and other Leaders will be allied with or opposed to Buckley as if he adopted Democracy.
Conservatism unlocks Rights, which in turn unlocks Freedom

Conservatism:

• Tradition: "The Democracy of the Dead": +Influence from Traditions
• Tradition: "Downstream of Culture": +Culture from Traditions
• An Army, Navy, and Wing Commander, each with 3 free experience points
• Gain a Cultural Attribute point
• Gain an Economic Attribute point
• Gain a Military Attribute point

Rights

• Tradition: "First Amendment": Districts with Cultural, Religious, & Scientific buildings from previous Ages retain their Adjacency bonuses
• Tradition: "Second Amendment": Civilian Units have significant Combat Strength when defending
• Gain a Cultural Attribute point
• Gain an Economic Attribute point
• Gain a Military Attribute point

Freedom

• Tradition: "Big Stick Diplomacy": Military Units gain Influence on kills
• Tradition: "Moral Majority": Religious buildings gain Happiness and Influence equal to their Adjacency bonus
• Tradition: "A Rising Tide Lifts All Boats": Gain Gold and Happiness per Factory resource
• Gain a Cultural Attribute point
• Gain an Economic Attribute point
• Gain a Military Attribute point

 

[moysturfurmer]

IDK, as far as I can tell one of the ideologies already focus on nationalism and military strength. Seems like it’d be a bit redundant to add a 4th ideology that does the same thing.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm not sure they should totally get rid of "Liberalism" or "Progressivism", but maybe they could make a separate Conservativism branch on the Democracy Ideology tree?

 

[GoneFishingX]

Just want to point out that every meaningful change that has improved your life has been created by progressive/liberal/leftwing political movements. What feels coservative today was radical 100 years ago.

Conservativism is antithetical to the gameplay of civ as it advocates stasis at best and at worst reactionary reversion. How can you research a tech that does nothing or undoes previous techs or civics?

The modern era coincides with a massive wave of inclusionary politics (progressive/liberal) and state assistance programs. To not have that be the 'ideal' of the democracy ideology is strange to me.

 

[Xandinho]

I don’t see the need for a fourth ideology; to me, it’s great as it is. Perhaps the solution to the proposed issue could be to make civics mutually exclusive—if you research Conservatism, you wouldn’t be able to research Progressivism, and vice versa. This way, you could shape your democratic government to lean more to the left or the right, depending on the player’s preference.

But honestly, the way it is now doesn’t bother me at all.

 

[Gorbles]

If we're allowed to object based on our own personal political preferences and insist Firaxis cater to our own specific judgement(s) of their implementations, I fear the developers would never get anything done. I could find as much issue with "Conservatism" leading to "Rights" and "Freedom" as much as the OP finds issue with Firaxis' own presentation.

Our best bet is to hope for mod tools that let any entrepreneurial type build their own ideologies like these.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Moderator Action: Just want to drop a preemptive note here, to keep the discussion civil and as much as possible centered on the mechanics/nomenclature in the context of the game.

 

[AlexByrde]

While I do think the terms liberalism and progressivism have obvious contemporary connotations, it doesn't change the fact that they are Enlightenment era ideologies that are intricately linked with democracy in what Civ VII refers to as the Modern Age. Would never mind additional minutae to develop a specific ideology within a game, but I don't really see an issue with the selected terminology.

 

[Patine]

The Modern Age stream revealed that each of the Ideologies has its own tree.
For Democracy, the first tech/civic is eponymously called "Democracy"; all well and good.
But that unlocks "Liberalism", which itself unlocks "Progressivism"
Both of these are terms primarily associated with the political Left in America.

Liberalism tends to have a different meaning, and an older usage, in European-based politics.

 

[j51]

I think the tree means liberalism and progressivism in the historic sense: John Stuart Mill being an example of the former and John Dewey of the latter.

That said, even as someone from the other end of the ideological spectrum I agree with TheSpaceCowboy that it’s weird to choose the framing they did considering the political climate these days and not just in the U.S!

But as Krikkit1 points out, the modern conservative movement in the west is currently outside the game’s time window. But yeah if they extend the modern age past 1950 eventually I could see adding a conservative branch to the democracy tree. It could include stuff related to Buckley, Friedman, Thatcher, Reagan, etc. for those who want it either because of personal politics or for role playing reasons.

 

[Patine]

If we're allowed to object based on our own personal political preferences and insist Firaxis cater to our own specific judgement(s) of their implementations, I fear the developers would never get anything done. I could find as much issue with "Conservatism" leading to "Rights" and "Freedom" as much as the OP finds issue with Firaxis' own presentation.

Our best bet is to hope for mod tools that let any entrepreneurial type build their own ideologies like these.

Except that wouldn't apply as focuses to the majority of modern (by Civ7 Age terms) political Conservative movements, which toward being elitist and reactionary, but would only apply to Lockian, Jeffersonian and Libertarian rooted ones.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

“liberalism” and “progressivism” sound like they tried to pick the most generic terms they could find. I don’t think accuracy is there goal.

 

[Siptah]

Liberalism means a state that interferes only minimally with individuals and the economy. It‘s the opposite of left in its classical meaning as a politics of strong state.

I know the modern connotation in the US is similar to progressive, but the actual word has a specific meaning that‘s quite different. The tech tree captures this idea of liberalism, not the modern connotation. And this idea is one of the most fundamental concepts of the US that all parties seem to follow as a core doctrine, regardless of them still calling it that. Hence, it makes sense as a main line civic in the democracy tree and there‘s no need to branch before that.

For comparison, the liberal parties in Europe are usually considered right wing parties (e.g., in the UK and Germany) or even extremely right (Poland, Austria).

 

[GeneralZIft]

I think it's a very silly principal to add conservatism as an ideology. And frankly a slippery slope.
You could very simply ask them add more stuff that is representative of Conservatives.

FYI in Civ5, the Democracy ideology had access to militaristic policies that revolved around diplomacy and also policies like Free Market.

These should appear alongside the liberal policies, and not as an entirely new branch of ideology.

 

[AlexByrde]

I'll add, I'm not surprised that the named social policies here are FDR-centric with the Modern Age building up the the World Wars, but I must say I'm a little disappointed. In terms of US-centric policies, Jeffersonian and Jacksonian policies were hugely influential and lend themselves to obvious flavors for in-game social policies. For example, Empire of Liberty and Republicanism for Jefferson, Spoils System and Populism for Jackson. It's all pretty foundational to how American democracy developed.

 

[TheGhostEnthusiast]

I think a left-leaning populist angle for Democracy will make for a good contrast with the other two in gameplay and aesthetics. If Fascism is a big focus on military and traditions and Communism is your centralized production and science stuff, a Cultural-Happiness path is the obvious pick for the third. Fireside Chats and Progressivism fit the bill for that, and make sense with the WWII Russia/Germany/America era the Ideologies (and the Civ roster) seem to be trying to invoke.

 

[Fummy]

Seems they are cooking up a stinker with ideology and government types in general with Civ 7. Decoupling ideology from gov type is just senseless. So you can unlock the communist ideology tree but be a monarchy? Civ 5 did it better.