Pmod01 - A lightly modded SG

[pnaxighn]

So, I notice that our spy isn't in Mao's capital. Anyone have an idea as to why?

In other weird news, we're building trade/science multipliers all over the place, including non-science cities, but we haven't built the +spy point buildings, even though they work equally well in all cities. Hm.

Finally, we have a city which has 19 fresh water tiles out of the 20 in its BFC...and it isn't building a levee.

 

[silk1976]

So, I notice that our spy isn't in Mao's capital. Anyone have an idea as to why?

Mission costs were cheaper elsewhere.

Any reason to have him in the capital?

 

[pnaxighn]

Inherited turn:

Do some mm. Wow do we have some weird stuff going on. Fix all of it that I can find. Drop research to 0% -- we'll finish SM this turn anyway, and we'll have a bit of money to play with when planning future research.

Turn 1:

Obsolete wants us to declare on Toku. Ye-no. No.

SM in. We have two oil. Both naval. Woe.

Communism is next up. We can go 100% research on it without running out of money, it'll get us a GSpy for Mao, and it'll let us build another wonder (if we ever decide we like US). Plus more spy buildings: woo.

Turn 2:

Observatory in Hastings. Woo. That's 15 science, right there. Queue up a spy building, since no more science or health are available right now.

Obsolete gets a bad event. Poor Obsolete.

And that's about it.

Turn 3:

Musket -> bureau in Cahokia. Frigate -> Frigate in Newcastle.

This game has become pretty straightforward, since there's no one else on our island.

Turn 4: Great scientist born in our GP farm. Hooray for microing people into specialists in our GP farm (they were working water tiles when I started...?). He heads to Mound City, which is our 2nd best science city...and does not have an academy. This will be a 30 science academy at 100% research.

Start our workers on preserving the NP forests. Might as well have that ready for bio...

Turn 5: Communism! No state property yet, however -- we want to get at least to internet before paving over our cottages. Bio queued up. 5 turns.

Frigate -> Frigate in NewCastle.

Re-open borders with Mao.

I consider sending our great spy to Mao, and get as far as loading him on a boat. It'll only get us a couple thousand espionage, however, and we're already getting plenty of that on our own. A golden age would almost certainly be more useful.

Pausing for team decision here: I'm thinking gspy -> golden age, quickswitching to free speech (+2c/town, huge for us) and Mercantilism (+1 specialist/city) (no anarchy in golden ages). Then, on the last turn of the age, we can move to US, and state property. SP will be worse than mercantilism for a bit, but once we start moving from cottages to farm/workshops (for spaceship parts) it'll be huge.

What do people think? Right plan? Or hurry up our spying on Mao to steal physics sooner? Or something else entirely?

 

[pnaxighn]

Mission costs were cheaper elsewhere.

Any reason to have him in the capital?

Yes, because mission costs are cheaper in the capital There's a penalty for distance from opponent's capital, I'm fairly sure.

Do you have some way of checking where costs are the cheapest? I don't know of one in the UI...

 

[silk1976]

Yes, because mission costs are cheaper in the capital

Not necessarily.

There's a penalty for distance from opponent's capital, I'm fairly sure.

The penalty is distance from your capital to the target city. Thus, the capital may be more expensive than other cities that happen to be closer to your capital.

Do you have some way of checking where costs are the cheapest? I don't know of one in the UI...

Yeah - the espionage screen!

Attached are two screen shots from this game, with the costs of espionage missions in two different cities. Notice the cost of stealing is cheaper in Shanghai, as opposed to his capital of Beijing.

Not all missions are cheaper in Shanghai - but stealing tech, at the time when the SS was taken, was a couple dozens points cheaper. Not much - but I've seen differences of a few thousand points before.

 

[silk1976]

I consider sending our great spy to Mao, and get as far as loading him on a boat. It'll only get us a couple thousand espionage, however, and we're already getting plenty of that on our own. A golden age would almost certainly be more useful.

Pausing for team decision here: I'm thinking gspy -> golden age, quickswitching to free speech (+2c/town, huge for us) and Mercantilism (+1 specialist/city) (no anarchy in golden ages). Then, on the last turn of the age, we can move to US, and state property. SP will be worse than mercantilism for a bit, but once we start moving from cottages to farm/workshops (for spaceship parts) it'll be huge.

What do people think? Right plan? Or hurry up our spying on Mao to steal physics sooner? Or something else entirely?

I'd definately use the GS to get espionage points - that'll get us an extra tech or two. Using the GS for a golden age, on the other hand, really only saves us maybe 3 turns. Stealing a tech will make up for that and more.

 

[pnaxighn]

I'd definately use the GS to get espionage points - that'll get us an extra tech or two. Using the GS for a golden age, on the other hand, really only saves us maybe 3 turns. Stealing a tech will make up for that and more.

It saves us 3 turns of anarchy...but also adds a bunch of turns of bonuses. That'd really add to our already massive science.

 

[silk1976]

It saves us 3 turns of anarchy...but also adds a bunch of turns of bonuses. That'd really add to our already massive science.

What tech's would we be able to steal?

While a GA might add to bonuses - sometimes it is more beneficial to have a certain tech or building or whatever at a critical point, even though in the long run it may not seem to be the best option.

In other words - if the techs we would steal dont help us much - then go for the GA. OTOH if we could steal techs that could help propel us to the tech lead that much more quickly, then having the points might be better.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

I too would use him fo the EPs.. We'd need another GP for a GA so he has to wait a couple of turns. As we're going straight towards the techlead the number of techs to steal will decrease pretty soon.. So the time frame for stealing something really useful is pretty small. And just think of the number of breakers we'd save through stealing Physics..
About the golden Age: You're right. We'll want some changes for the true late game.. But until then it's still some way to go. So maybe we should keep the next two GPs for a well timed GA. And I think at the moment a civic change wouldn't be worth the turn(s) of anachy.
And we should try to reopen Borders with Obsolete..

 

[pnaxighn]

I'm glad someone reminded me we'd used a GA earlier -- that would've eaten our great scientist!

Also, we have two great generals just sorta hanging out. Might wanna do something with them eventually...?

Anyway, back to my set.

 

[pnaxighn]

Turn 5, Continued: Send the GSpy towards Mao, as discussed. Send the spy back to where she was -- I don't know how this works, but it's cheaper than Mao's capital (??).

Turn 6: Observatory -> Intelligence Agency in York. Security Bureau -> Intelligence Agency in Nottingham.

Toku takes another of Obsolete's cities. I decide that Stone for Kremlin might be nice, and try demanding it from Obsolete. Surpise! He gives in. Nottingham moved to Kremlin-building as a result.


Turn 6: Mound City gets its 30-bulb academy. This city is a true monster, now, producing 76 base commerce. I missed that it didn't have an observatory, earlier, so queue one up after its jail.

Turn 7: Speaking of jails... London: Security Bureau -> Intelligence Agency. This puts our espionage/turn up to 189 (was 166 at set-start, and I've fired some spy specialists). Our spy has also re-reached the optimal city. She fortifies to start building up the discount again.

Turn 8: Mao gets corporation. We could steal it immediately, but I'd rather grab physics. Levee->Jail in Oxford (a crappy southern coastal city). Harbor->Grocer in Liverpool, which is having terrible trouble staying healthy. Our forest preservation continues -- with Biology in next turn, the NP city is almost ready, and certainly will be before the NP is complete.

Turn 9: Bio is in. Move on to corporation. 2 turns, at positive cashflow!

...and that's it. What a boring turn .

Turn 10: The frigate pump continues -- our coasts are becoming somewhat more secure. All of NP city's forests are preserved. I even preserved one that ISN'T in its radius (woops).

Infiltration: GO! Our EP against Mao is now 7829, dropping our costs to 81%. We can steal physics immediately, but if we wait 3 turns we'll get a better discount (enough that we should be able to steal another, cheaper tech, as soon as the spy gets back).

Summary: Kremlin in 6 (Nottingham). At this point, we should get some stock exchanges up so we can build Wall Street in Nottingham (corporation comes in next turn). We should also get a galleon for spy-carrying duties. Some missionaries would also be good, as each confucian city adds 2 cash/turn for us, via Nottingham (and it will be 3/turn once we have Wall Street there).

We'll want to get plastics (oil, power) and computers (internet), but then we should start moving some cities from towns to farm/workshop, which will also change what civics we want to be in.

I'd say our position in this game, with our espionage plan coming into focus, is officially dominant.

 

[silk1976]

I forgot about the factor that doing an infiltration will drop the cost of missions due to espionage spending.

I dont know exactly how the formula works for determining steal tech costs. Probably the easiest way to determine where the costs come from is to have a spy stationed in two cities, and then look at the cost breakdown for stealing the same tech in both cities, and see what the major factors are. Some variables - such as point spending and being stationary - are probably fixed. Other factors, such as presence of an enemy spy or bureau, and distance to enemy capital, are more variable.

 

[silk1976]

EDIT: I think I'm up next. I'll look to play tomorrow morning - give us some time to decide what moves will be next.

 

[silk1976]

Turn 282
- review current status.

Turn 283:
- Corporation in, tech assembly line line (on way to plastics, plus the factories would be nice)
Cahokia: bureau > missionary
MM cahokia to bring in 3 scientists

Turn 284:
cahokia: missionary > missionary
newcastle: frigate > frigate

Turn 284:
london: intelligence agency > caravel
oxford: jail > grocer

mental note: need to put stock exchange in hastings & york to get most and get 6 so we can build wall street

Turn 285:
steal physics from mao for 3775 (original price was > 8000!)

Turn 286:
cahokia: missionary > missionary
chaco canyon: jail > aquaduct
coventry: levee > observatory

Turn 287:
london: caravel > galleon
newcastle: frigate > frigate

Turn 288:
nottingham: kremlin > observatory (we will need these for laboratories, right?)
hastings: bureau > exchange
cahokia: missionary > spy (already 3 missionaries)

Turn 289:
london: galleon > galleon
york: agency > exchange
newcastle: frigate > frigate

Turn 290:
assembly line in, think about tech path, since we are behind in prereq's to plastic. Decide on order of: steel > railroad > combustion or electricity > electricity or combustion (whichever was not done in previous turn) > industrialism > plastics
nottingham: observatory > agency
cahokia: spy > spy
warwick: harbor > grocer

Turn 291:
toku makes peace with obsolete
cahokia: spy > spy
mound city: observatory > bureau
newcastle: frigate > frigate
oxford: grocer > aquaduct

Turn 292:
london: galleon > factory
coventry: observatory > harbor

Stopped here

Things of note:
- I built a couple galleons because they can carry 3 spies/missionaries instead of one. So long as we have OB with someone, that should be more efficient than caravels.
- We have some backfilling for techs to do in order to meet prereq's of upcoming techs. I choose steel/railroad next because have workers without anything to do, and once we get railroad, they can go nuts putting up a rail network
- other than that, pretty basic turn set. Typical for the push to a space race - just filling out infrastructure (factories, observatories, sec bureau's so the AI doesn't steal as many high level techs)
- not much else for techs to steal. However, I built a few spies that we can send out - if for no other reason than to have fun wreaking havok on the AI

 

[pnaxighn]

Turn 282
- review current status.

Turn 283:
- Corporation in, tech assembly line line (on way to plastics, plus the factories would be nice)
Cahokia: bureau > missionary
MM cahokia to bring in 3 scientists

Turn 284:
cahokia: missionary > missionary
newcastle: frigate > frigate

Turn 284:
london: intelligence agency > caravel
oxford: jail > grocer

mental note: need to put stock exchange in hastings & york to get most and get 6 so we can build wall street

Turn 285:
steal physics from mao for 3775 (original price was > 8000!)

Turn 286:
cahokia: missionary > missionary
chaco canyon: jail > aquaduct
coventry: levee > observatory

Turn 287:
london: caravel > galleon
newcastle: frigate > frigate

Turn 288:
nottingham: kremlin > observatory (we will need these for laboratories, right?)
hastings: bureau > exchange
cahokia: missionary > spy (already 3 missionaries)

Turn 289:
london: galleon > galleon
york: agency > exchange
newcastle: frigate > frigate

Turn 290:
assembly line in, think about tech path, since we are behind in prereq's to plastic. Decide on order of: steel > railroad > combustion or electricity > electricity or combustion (whichever was not done in previous turn) > industrialism > plastics
nottingham: observatory > agency
cahokia: spy > spy
warwick: harbor > grocer

Turn 291:
toku makes peace with obsolete
cahokia: spy > spy
mound city: observatory > bureau
newcastle: frigate > frigate
oxford: grocer > aquaduct

Turn 292:
london: galleon > factory
coventry: observatory > harbor

Stopped here

Things of note:
- I built a couple galleons because they can carry 3 spies/missionaries instead of one. So long as we have OB with someone, that should be more efficient than caravels.
- We have some backfilling for techs to do in order to meet prereq's of upcoming techs. I choose steel/railroad next because have workers without anything to do, and once we get railroad, they can go nuts putting up a rail network
- other than that, pretty basic turn set. Typical for the push to a space race - just filling out infrastructure (factories, observatories, sec bureau's so the AI doesn't steal as many high level techs)
- not much else for techs to steal. However, I built a few spies that we can send out - if for no other reason than to have fun wreaking havok on the AI

Galleons: good. I'm not sure if I mentioned we needed this or not, but I meant to.
Spying: We should still have plenty of spy points on Mao. If he has anything we don't...steal it. Since soon, he won't have anything we don't.

Set looks pretty clean. Who's up? Thy?

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

Ok, got it for tomorrow..

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

Ok.. I started my set so far, but on the third turn we got into some REAL trouble..

Charly DoW us. So we need to discuss a bit about what do do right now..

For some mor infos take a look at the save.. And in case somebody feels more confident in fighting such a war feel free to take it as I'm not!!

 

[silk1976]

that pretty much sucks - especially because our defense is basically axemen, and he's coming with rifleman.

But all is not lost. First of all, the stck he landed is probably the majority of his forces that he'll send over. We have a few cats in newcastle we can use to start whiddling that stack away.

Also, we are in nationhood. draft the hell out of muskets/rifles whatever we have in cities surrounding charlie stack.

Also - the slider is at 0% - giving us over 600 per turn. We can use that gold to upgrade existing units to improve our defense and up our power scale pretty dramatically in short order.

I'm betting that because we couldn't see charlie's power graph that he is pretty well ahead of us in that category - so that is probably why he DoW'd. But I think we just need to be able to withstand his stack, repair any damage and pillaging he might do, and it'll be over.

 

[cripp7]

mass draft, we'll probably lose Newcastle. Having the slider @0% we can upgrade units to muskets, just try to hold. Or pull the units out of Newcastle, let him take it and mass up a SoD to take it back and kill his stack. that sucks, being alone makes us feel secure when truthfully we weren't.

 

[silk1976]

actually cripp thats not a bad strategy - try and draw him into newcastle or some other city where our defense is better - make him lose more of his stack. Will make retaking easier.

I'd say give it a whirl Thy - I know it seems intimidating - but losing a city is not the worst thing to happen. A set back, sure, but we can survive. Gotta get war practice in somehow and at some point