Poland vs the Ottoman Empire

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aelf

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What would have happened if Poland (then the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) and the Ottoman Empire got into an all-out war till death do them part?

I know Jan Sobieski trounced the Turks, but IMO that's not even the main reason why the Turks would lose. The Quran has verses that explicitly exhorts believers to kill or persecute unbelievers, and all Muslims have to obey the Quran strictly. Therefore, even if the Poles were to lose in the major battles, the Turks would not have the sympathy of many people and Poland would win a long guerrilla campaign a la the CCP in the Chinese Civil War.

Discuss.
 
Straight grudge match, no outside interference?
Ottoman Empire. It took Poland and Austria to defeat the Turks at Vienna. The Ottomans possesed an empire with more manpower and wealth.
 
In RL the war they fought resulted in the Ottomans taking Podolia and parts of Ukraine from Poland. The Poles never really had a chance against an dedicated Ottoman army.
Polish-Ottoman War (1672–1676) or Second Polish-Ottoman War was a war between the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Ottoman Empire, as part of the Great Turkish War. It ended in 1676 with the Treaty of Żurawno and the Commonwealth ceding control of most of its Ukraine territories to the Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Ottoman_War_(1672–1676)
Date 1672 - 1676 (Treaty of Żurawno)
Location Ukraine
Result Ottoman victory
Territorial
changes Ottoman Empire wins control over parts of Ukraine
 
This thread seems to be a bait for me, but I'll answer. It would be probable for Ottoman Empire to completely conquer Poland, if it could focus all its resources and all of its army, and if there was no foreign help for it. I can not imagine Poland successively conquering entire Ottoman Empire, even if it could focus all of its resources and all of its army, and nobody was helping Ottoman Empire. But, in reality, Ottomans did try to conquer Poland, and were apparently very dedicated to it, as sultan Osman II himself (together with grand visier) was leading the campaign, and he signed a peace treaty with Persia prior to it, to be able to concentrate entire army for this goal. this attempt ended in turkish defeat at Chocim in 1621, and the sultan was soon overthrown
 
This thread seems to be a bait for me, but I'll answer. It would be probable for Ottoman Empire to completely conquer Poland, if it could focus all its resources and all of its army, and if there was no foreign help for it. I can not imagine Poland successively conquering entire Ottoman Empire, even if it could focus all of its resources and all of its army, and nobody was helping Ottoman Empire. But, in reality, Ottomans did try to conquer Poland, and were apparently very dedicated to it, as sultan Osman II himself (together with grand visier) was leading the campaign, and he signed a peace treaty with Persia prior to it, to be able to concentrate entire army for this goal. this attempt ended in turkish defeat at Chocim in 1621, and the sultan was soon overthrown

The Ottomans never in their wildest dreams wanted to conquer Poland. Never. Podolia and Ukraine were worthless enough and hard to hold as it was and were relinquished anyway. Conquering a sparsely populated and poor land like Poland over such vast distances would have been a massive strain on supply lines. There was simply no reason for the Ottomans to want Poland, what did it have?
 
Poland was relatively rich in these times, actually. If you think Ottoman Empire had a limited scale of interest in conquest, you probably forget they had an empire stretching from Yemen to Ukraine, and from Algeria to persian gulf, and they tried to subdue even Kazan and Astrakhan. Many of these lands were much less profitable than Poland. If Ottoman Empire didn't progress more in Europe, it was because it wasn't able, not because it didn't want to.
 
Poland was relatively rich in these times, actually. If you think Ottoman Empire had a limited scale of interest in conquest, you probably forget they had an empire stretching from Yemen to Ukraine, and from Algeria to persian gulf, and they tried to subdue even Kazan and Astrakhan. Many of these lands were much less profitable than Poland. If Ottoman Empire didn't progress more in Europe, it was because it wasn't able, not because it didn't want to.

No it wasn't, not compared to the territories the Ottomans had far easier access to in the Med and the Middle East.

Ukraine was largely controlled by the Crimean Tartars with limited direct Ottoman presence, Algeria, Tunis, and Tripoli were all Beyliks and indirectly controlled, the Ottomans never tried to conquer Kazan or Astrakhan. Hell Moldavia, Wallachia, and Translyvania were all vassals and not directly controlled either. All the lands the Ottomans conquered had something to offer them. Mesopatamia was a vital forinteir zone against Persian advances and was moderately wealthy, Egypt was both wealthy and populous same was true of the Balkans, the Hejaz had Mecca and Medina. Yemen had the key port of Aden which the Ottomans needed to project power into the Indian Ocean.

After Muscovy conquered Kazan and Astrakhan the Ottomans were concerned about growing Muscovite presence in the north and the closure of the pilgramage routes from Central Asia to Mecca and so with the Crimeans landed around Azov and marched up the Volga region, some had the rather farfecthed idea of linking the Volga to the Caspian via a canal which never amounted to anything. That foolhardy adventure ended in a treaty with the Muscovites and no one ever attempted to try anything like that again.

As I said the Ottomans had no interest in conquering Poland and never attempted it. Podolia was a worthless enough conquest as it was.
 
Wasn't that an attempt to flank Safavid Persia by attacking from the Caspian?

Not that I know of. The Ottomans were generally very wary of attacking anything by sea. Also I'm not sure where they could have landed? At Baku? In Gilan? And from there where would they go? Toward Tehran a backwater village? to Tabriz a place they had already taken before with little effect? The Persian scorched earth tactic would have made it an impossibility and any Ottoman army sent that way would have starved to death and then been annihilated by Persian attack. If they really wanted to flank Persia they would have landed in the south from the Persia gulf and headed toward Awhaz, Shiraz a major city, Homruz a major port, and Esfahan the capital. Taking those would be far more useful in knocking Persia out of any war.

As I've read it was more of an attempt to reach Astrakhan and Kazan easier in order to liberate them and then reinforce them and open up the pilgrimage routes. Of course that too was a fairly dim prospect. And they quickly realized that and pulled back.

It's worth noting that Sokullu Mehmed Pasha also had an idea for building a canal at Suez to link the Med with the Red Sea which would allow the Ottomans project naval power more easily into the Indian Ocean. But that too never came to anything, sadly if you ask me.
 
No it wasn't, not compared to the territories the Ottomans had far easier access to in the Med and the Middle East.
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So you cathegorically state that there were no attempts of conquest of Poland because (allegedly) there were better targets?

Ukraine was largely controlled by the Crimean Tartars with limited direct Ottoman presence, Algeria, Tunis, and Tripoli were all Beyliks and indirectly controlled, the Ottomans never tried to conquer Kazan or Astrakhan. Hell Moldavia, Wallachia, and Translyvania were all vassals and not directly controlled either.
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If Ottoman Empire didn't conquer Moldavia directly, it was because Poland would never agree on direct turkish presence there. Prior to establishing a vassal status, Turks tried to conquer Wallachia. Crimea was a good buffor state as well.

huh? what is this trying to prove anyway? An indirect control is a control nevertheless.

All the lands the Ottomans conquered had something to offer them. Mesopatamia was a vital forinteir zone against Persian advances and was moderately wealthy, Egypt was both wealthy and populous same was true of the Balkans, the Hejaz had Mecca and Medina. Yemen had the key port of Aden which the Ottomans needed to project power into the Indian Ocean.

Do you really believe Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania etc were richer than Poland at its peak? The conquest of Poland would eliminate a potential ally of Habsburgs, as well as encircle this enemy. Anyway, if a great army led by sultan himself shows at the borders of Poland, I expect it to want to conquer it.

After Muscovy conquered Kazan and Astrakhan the Ottomans were concerned about growing Muscovite presence in the north and the closure of the pilgramage routes from Central Asia to Mecca and so with the Crimeans landed around Azov and marched up the Volga region, some had the rather farfecthed idea of linking the Volga to the Caspian via a canal which never amounted to anything. That foolhardy adventure ended in a treaty with the Muscovites and no one ever attempted to try anything like that again.

Foolhardy or not, it was an attempt to subject these lands to turkish control. Therefore, my point stays.
 
because it had Safavids and Habsburgs to care about, and didn't want Poland to support Habsburgs against them, for once.

If you knew anything in this subject you'd know that Turkey agreed - numerous times - only to appoint christians as rulers of Moldavia, and to make them people "friendly towards poland", or whatever. At some points it was actually Poland which was appointing them. Moldavia wasn't a clear turkish vassal, it was more of a polish-turkish condominium, and several of its rulers gave a homage to polish kings, both before and after Turks even appeared there.
 
So you cathegorically state that there were no attempts of conquest of Poland because (allegedly) there were better targets?

And because it was foolhardy, not worth the time or effort or money and was never seriously entertained and that Podolia was costly and worthless enough.
If Ottoman Empire didn't conquer Moldavia directly, it was because Poland would never agree on direct turkish presence there. Prior to establishing a vassal status, Turks tried to conquer Wallachia. Crimea was a good buffor state as well.

The Ottomans had already taken Podolia from Poland which was on the other side of Moldavia. How would Poland have stopped them? Also Crimea wasn't a buffer state. It was a vassal and an arm of the Ottoman Empire for all intents and purposes. The Girays would be the one's to inherit the Ottoman Empire if the House of Osman was wiped out, it was Crimean forces that sacked Moscow, it was Crimean forces that raided Poland and Moscow, it was Crimean forces that fought with the Ottoman army in almost every war in Europe they waged.

huh? what is this trying to prove anyway? An indirect control is a control nevertheless.

When you vassalage a country it doesn't require your soldiers to go garrison it, you need not empty your treasury to defend it, you need not establish a office or bureaucracy, it is less taxing on your resources and considering that was how all those territories that you named acted it doesn't really show how that Ottoman Empire was interested in conquering worthless land.

Do you really believe Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania etc were richer than Poland at its peak? The conquest of Poland would eliminate a potential ally of Habsburgs, as well as encircle this enemy. Anyway, if a great army led by sultan himself shows at the borders of Poland, I expect it to want to conquer it.

Yes. And Poland wasn't at its peak. It was already falling apart. The Sejm even refused to release Sobeski funds to fight the Ottomans because they knew that Poland wasn't under a direct threat. Also encircling the Hapsburgs doesn't help the Ottomans much at all. What are they going to do invade Brandenburg? It was Vienna they wanted not a backwater.

The Sultan took the army to a lot of places. Thats what you did as Sultan. It was kind of your job. You know. To lead the army. When Sobeski went to Vienna with an army was he trying to conquer it? When Sultan Selim entered Tabriz did that mean he wanted to swallow all of Persia?

Foolhardy or not, it was an attempt to subject these lands to turkish control. Therefore, my point stays.

No it wasn't. Bro this is my major, this is what study, this is what I write thesis on and have several papers about the Ottoman Empire is my specialization. So I don't much care for your nationalist wankery or wikipedia knowledge.

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And because it was foolhardy, not worth the time or effort or money and was never seriously entertained and that Podolia was costly and worthless enough.

being of Podolian origin, I am personally offended ;)
Not every conquest is about money. Most border provinces will drag the budget down, because that's where the army is, and that's where the enemy doesn't let the province to flourish etc.


The Ottomans had already taken Podolia from Poland which was on the other side of Moldavia. How would Poland have stopped them?

Podolia was in turkish hands for 27 years only, and 3 centuries after the status of Moldavia was established.

Also Crimea wasn't a buffer state. It was a vassal and an arm of the Ottoman Empire for all intents and purposes. The Girays would be the one's to inherit the Ottoman Empire if the House of Osman was wiped out, it was Crimean forces that sacked Moscow, it was Crimean forces that raided Poland and Moscow, it was Crimean forces that fought with the Ottoman army in almost every war in Europe they waged.

And that is against my claim that it was a buffor state? It shows that it was a splendid buffor state!

When you vassalage a country it doesn't require your soldiers to go garrison it, you need not empty your treasury to defend it, you need not establish a office or bureaucracy, it is less taxing on your resources and considering that was how all those territories that you named acted it doesn't really show how that Ottoman Empire was interested in conquering worthless land.

Do you claim that the senior does not have any control over his vassal? My point stays: Crimea, Moldavia, Vallachia etc were part of the ottoman empire.


What do you base your opinion on?

And Poland wasn't at its peak. It was already falling apart.

I was refering to 1621 battle of Chocim (and earlier times), which clearly isn't the time of Sobieski.

Also encircling the Hapsburgs doesn't help the Ottomans much at all. What are they going to do invade Brandenburg? It was Vienna they wanted not a backwater.

Truly, there's no advantage at all in encircling an enemy and destroy its allies, not to directly threaten his other allies. You are a visionary strategist.

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Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

The Sultan took the army to a lot of places.

In the first half of XVII century, the custom of personal sultan expeditions was already ending. Also, where else did Osman II take his army to, btw?
As it's your thesis etc, I dare you to list all the military expeditions led by sultans from 1566 to 1699... To my knowledge there were only few of them, but perhaps you will enlighten me in this subject.

When Sobeski went to Vienna with an army was he trying to conquer it?

No, because he was on his ally's territory.

When Sultan Selim entered Tabriz did that mean he wanted to swallow all of Persia?

If one country conquers another country's capital, it's perfectly possible that it wants to conquer it. Why do you think otherwise?

No it wasn't. Bro this is my major, this is what study, this is what I write thesis on and have several papers about the Ottoman Empire is my specialization. So I don't much care for your nationalist wankery or wikipedia knowledge.

My opinions are not based on wikipedia, thank you. Isn't it you who was quoting wikipedia in this subject, anyway? :lol:
I do not question your knowledge of facts, I question your interpretations and assertions that apparently go beyond your thesis, because I doubt you have deep knowledge about XVI-XVII century polish economy, yet claim that it was "poor, sparcely populated". If you claim so, find some proof.
 
If you knew anything in this subject you'd know that Turkey agreed - numerous times - only to appoint christians as rulers of Moldavia, and to make them people "friendly towards poland", or whatever.

That'd be the diplomatic thing to do anyway, since Moldavia is a Christian country, and the Ottoman Empire didn't wish to conquer Poland or anything.

At some points it was actually Poland which was appointing them. Moldavia wasn't a clear turkish vassal, it was more of a polish-turkish condominium, and several of its rulers gave a homage to polish kings, both before and after Turks even appeared there.

A condominium implies joint-rule. Polish involvement in Moldavia were unwelcome intrusions rather than a friendly accommodation.

And that is against my claim that it was a buffor state? It shows that it was a splendid buffor state!

From Wikipedia: A buffer state is a country lying between two rival or potentially hostile greater powers, which by its sheer existence is thought to prevent conflict between them. Buffer states, when authentically independent, typically pursue a neutralist foreign policy, which distinguishes them from satellite states.

In this sense, the Crimean Khanate was a satellite state, not a buffer state.
 
As we all know, if it wasn't done, it couldn't have been done. Therefore, the Ottoman Empire couldn't possibly have conquered Poland and vice versa. However, Ottoman Empire has Islam trying to interfere with the organisation of society. We know that that is the making of fail, just like how the USSR eventually failed. As we can see, fast forward a few centuries, the Ottoman Empire collapsed while Poland is still around.

Therefore Poland wins.

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That'd be the diplomatic thing to do anyway, since Moldavia is a Christian country, and the Ottoman Empire didn't wish to conquer Poland or anything.

Moldavia and Vallachia were not the only christian vassals OE had, there were some others in Macedonia and OE simply dissolved them when their rulers died.


A condominium implies joint-rule. Polish involvement in Moldavia were unwelcome intrusions rather than a friendly accommodation.

Ottoman Empire did unwelcome intrusions, Poland did as well. Both had some influence in this land, although ottomans stronger.

From Wikipedia: A buffer state is a country lying between two rival or potentially hostile greater powers, which by its sheer existence is thought to prevent conflict between them. Buffer states, when authentically independent, typically pursue a neutralist foreign policy, which distinguishes them from satellite states.

In this sense, the Crimean Khanate was a satellite state, not a buffer state.

My mistake. I ment something like a satelite state or a border march useful for defending and extending the borders.

btw, Karalysia, how old are you? I believe you to be around 16, so I doubt your knowledge about Ottomans is really that great.

Moderator Action: Infraction for flaming. - KD
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
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