Poland

[Enrico Swagolo]

Would just like to point out that a UA based around investment already exists, so it would hardly be unique.

Not really. Babylooney tunes gets a discounted investment cost, true, but nothing encouraging investment or no ability to rushbuy replaced by investing in units like proposed. It's not like Portugal/Morocco where the only thing that changes is yield type and Morocco having a bigger requirement and as such less flexibilty but better yield types.

I had the same idea. Its quite a bit weaker than the classic UA, so balanced maybe? This has some flavor in that Poland becomes somewhat weak early but strong later on. Getting that free social policy when you hit classical (which can be as early as your 5th or 6th tech) was very valuable in terms of yields. It also had great utility for getting certain wonders

I've only finished 1 game with the current Poland and he actually felt a little bit weak. This change hurts twice, first because you get fewer social policies and second because they come much later than in the old UA. He does need a strong UA because his UU is average at best. The UB is solid on the right terrain but very situational. I'll put another idea for the UB out there, what if it provided 1 horse?

No classical proc would also make sense as Poland was formally recognised as a kingdom come medieval. I don't like the free Horse idea though, I like the Stable-shaped Ikanda/Dojo of only horse units way more. It's way cooler IMHO, adds way more strategy and dillema on how to play Poland. With Royal Stable strengthening mounted, Winged Hussar would stop being underwhelming. I still think his Heavy Charge could be changed to not be detrimental half of the time, but it'll still be fine.

I have some ideas on the promotion/s it could give/grant access too, but I don't see a point to write them down as we don't even know if anything is happening there and I'd rather see what others have in mind first. Or if the Dojo/Ikanda of mounted idea will even be realised.

 

[CrazyG]

Would it spawn the horse on a tile or just provide the horse?
I mean it could definitely work but I still prefer my earlier suggestion.

I was just going to have it provide a horse, no tile changes. Like how a recyclying plant works.

Anyways I actually like just making it more military focused more than my own suggestion.

 

[Funak]

Not really. Babylooney tunes gets a discounted investment cost, true, but nothing encouraging investment or no ability to rushbuy replaced by investing in units like proposed. It's not like Portugal/Morocco where the only thing that changes is yield type and Morocco having a bigger requirement and as such less flexibilty but better yield types.



No classical proc would also make sense as Poland was formally recognised as a kingdom come medieval. I don't like the free Horse idea though, I like the Stable-shaped Ikanda/Dojo of only horse units way more. It's way cooler IMHO, adds way more strategy and dillema on how to play Poland. With Royal Stable strengthening mounted, Winged Hussar would stop being underwhelming. I still think his Heavy Charge could be changed to not be detrimental half of the time, but it'll still be fine.

I have some ideas on the promotion/s it could give/grant access too, but I don't see a point to write them down as we don't even know if anything is happening there and I'd rather see what others have in mind first. Or if the Dojo/Ikanda of mounted idea will even be realised.

Babylon does not get a discount to investment (unless that changed recently), Babylon got almost twice as powerful investments.

As far to investing in units, that's definitely not vanilla enough for G's tastes, I can already hear him saying how it is impossible


As far as promotions go, what do we have to choose from?
Ignore ZoC
Extra movement and extra damage to wounded units
Extra CS on open fields
A bigger flankingbonus
Ignore terrain-based movement penalty

Other suggestions?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Babylon does not get a discount to investment (unless that changed recently), Babylon got almost twice as powerful investments.

As far to investing in units, that's definitely not vanilla enough for G's tastes, I can already hear him saying how it is impossible


As far as promotions go, what do we have to choose from?
Ignore ZoC
Extra movement and extra damage to wounded units
Extra CS on open fields
A bigger flankingbonus
Ignore terrain-based movement penalty

Other suggestions?

I bet investing in units is possible, or how else it is possible that buildings turned from instabuy to invested in CBP? Though I might be mistaken. Anyway, from your choices I dislike ignore ZoC (it'd be just like Mongolia and we're making Poland and not Finland UB here). The rest can be okay, though ignore terrain could be too good.

I've got several ideas. I'll start with the tough one.

First of all, give UU Heavy Charge bonus damage regardless if the unit is moved or not, I bet AI can't use this trait anyway (even I had problems last time I played Poland 50 billion years ago) so why is something only a player could reliably use in there? Giving the damage regardless would help the AI (and player) out.

Anyway, (UB) Ducal Stable is the same, also Mounted melee units from the city receive Piast Legacy. (-25 XP maybe?)

Piast Legacy - +50% to 100% (dunno) Experience gained.
unlocks following promotions to be picked or gives one after fighting or preferably grants a random untaken one every X levels (starting from 0 or X?). If pickable, they're probably too weak as it is now :

God, Honor, Fatherland - +10% CS against civs following other religions. +10% CS.
For our freedom and yours - Receive Influence for every unit killed 5/10 tiles away from a non-hostile city state and +10% CS in lands of allied civilisations and city-states. (I bet at least one part of it is impossible and it's very hard to make use of anyway so this one can probably go)
Golden Liberty - +4/6 Gold and Great Person points towards a random GP in the capital for every kill. +5%/10% CS if you have more Gold than the enemy (or more policies total than the enemy? Synergy with unchanged/restored-but-starting-from-medieval UA this way).
For Faith, King and Law - 5%/10% for every different policy tree or ideology tree your enemy has adopted that you didn't, up to ??%. (if too samey as GHF/boring, add sth else like +GG generation? Yields?)

Just made them up quickly to be as unique as possible while fitting the context or at least name, though while they are unique (besides GHF which is meant to be the reliable one) I bet Gazebo will say impossibru to them anyway because I've seen similar stuff, but nothing really like this.


Alternative, easy solution that doesn't include uniques and I like for simplicity:
UA - old one, but starts giving from medieval. Loses -Crime compared to now. Can't be stronger because DS will be stronger. Maybe change it's name too, dunno.
UB - same as now but grants Heavy Charge.
Heavy Charge gives damage bonus regardless if unit moves as well as +1 Movement. Maybe +Flanking damage/Base CS on top of that too, I don't know how much attack damage HC gives. Seemed to be almost nothing last time I used WH.

Maybe something like +XP% too, but then it'd probably require a name change or something and it's probably unneeded. Anyway, take that promotion away from base Winged Hussar, give it to all Polish mounted/armoured stuff via Ducal Stable. Give WH something good to compensate losing out on an unique promotion, like another unique promotion or one/two more regular ones.

UU - I recommend free +Charge I on top of Formation I it has already, and free Morale. This way, Poland will be unique in not being forced to build/recruit in one city if you want all your stuff to be in tip-top shape and didn't get Orders. Since Poland is meant to be all about versatility and freedom in how to proceed, this one just makes sense to me? Far from the best UUs, but versatile and with Heavy Charge it will be up there anyway.
Sure, Morale could be given to horses by the Ducal Stable instead, too, but it'd be cooler linked to an UU (especially for people who receive them from CSs when Poland is not in the game). WH could get +GG gen and/or +Quick Study too but probably instead of something. Being simple while getting a good Heavy Charge in this case could be cool but I dunno if others agree.

 

[Funak]

I bet investing in units is possible, or how else it is possible that buildings turned from instabuy to invested in CBP? Though I might be mistaken. Anyway, from your choices I dislike ignore ZoC (it'd be just like Mongolia and we're making Poland and not Finland UB here). The rest can be okay, though ignore terrain could be too good.

Mainly because I asked for the ability to invest in settlers ages ago and got responses ranging from impossible to crazy.

I've got several ideas. I'll start with the tough one.

First of all, give UU Heavy Charge bonus damage regardless if the unit is moved or not, I bet AI can't use this trait anyway (even I had problems last time I played Poland 50 billion years ago) so why is something only a player could reliably use in there? Giving the damage regardless would help the AI (and player) out.

Anyway, (UB) Ducal Stable is the same, also Mounted melee units from the city receive Piast Legacy. (-25 XP maybe?)

Piast Legacy - +50% to 100% (dunno) Experience gained.
unlocks following promotions to be picked or gives one after fighting or preferably grants a random untaken one every X levels (starting from 0 or X?). If pickable, they're probably too weak as it is now :

God, Honor, Fatherland - +10% CS against civs following other religions. +10% CS.
For our freedom and yours - Receive Influence for every unit killed 5/10 tiles away from a non-hostile city state and +10% CS in lands of allied civilisations and city-states. (I bet at least one part of it is impossible and it's very hard to make use of anyway so this one can probably go)
Golden Liberty - +4/6 Gold and Great Person points towards a random GP in the capital for every kill. +5%/10% CS if you have more Gold than the enemy (or more policies total than the enemy? Synergy with unchanged/restored-but-starting-from-medieval UA this way).
For Faith, King and Law - 5%/10% for every different policy tree or ideology tree your enemy has adopted that you didn't, up to ??%. (if too samey as GHF/boring, add sth else like +GG generation? Yields?)

Just made them up quickly to be as unique as possible while fitting the context or at least name, though while they are unique (besides GHF which is meant to be the reliable one) I bet Gazebo will say impossibru to them anyway because I've seen similar stuff, but nothing really like this.


Alternative, easy solution that doesn't include uniques and I like for simplicity:
UA - old one, but starts giving from medieval. Loses -Crime compared to now. Can't be stronger because DS will be stronger. Maybe change it's name too, dunno.
UB - same as now but grants Heavy Charge.
Heavy Charge gives damage bonus regardless if unit moves as well as +1 Movement. Maybe +Flanking damage/Base CS on top of that too, I don't know how much attack damage HC gives. Seemed to be almost nothing last time I used WH.

Maybe something like +XP% too, but then it'd probably require a name change or something and it's probably unneeded. Anyway, take that promotion away from base Winged Hussar, give it to all Polish mounted/armoured stuff via Ducal Stable. Give WH something good to compensate losing out on an unique promotion, like another unique promotion or one/two more regular ones.

UU - I recommend free +Charge I on top of Formation I it has already, and free Morale. This way, Poland will be unique in not being forced to build/recruit in one city if you want all your stuff to be in tip-top shape and didn't get Orders. Since Poland is meant to be all about versatility and freedom in how to proceed, this one just makes sense to me? Far from the best UUs, but versatile and with Heavy Charge it will be up there anyway.
Sure, Morale could be given to horses by the Ducal Stable instead, too, but it'd be cooler linked to an UU (especially for people who receive them from CSs when Poland is not in the game). WH could get +GG gen and/or +Quick Study too but probably instead of something. Being simple while getting a good Heavy Charge in this case could be cool but I dunno if others agree.

First of all, I was talking about mounted melee units, not ranged ones, kinda important to specify considering mongolia does that exact same thing for mounted ranged untis.

Second, you're severely overstatting this. Just 100% increased experience would be plenty enough if not overkill all by itself.
I personally have absolutely no problem with how the winged hussar currently works, it might need a slight bumb in CS, unless it has already received that since last time I checked it (can't remember if that was included in that patch) but otherwise it is completely fine. Heavy charge is a crazy powerful tool and formation 1 means your units are going to destroy enemy mounted units. I'll have to admit that they don't exactly have fantastic synergy, heavy charge being most useful versus land-units as they tend to clump up and formation obviously just being useful versus mounted units. But every once in a while you get the ability so slam an enemy lancer into another unit and reap the benefit.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Mainly because I asked for the ability to invest in settlers ages ago and got responses ranging from impossible to crazy.

That's a shame.

First of all, I was talking about mounted melee units, not ranged ones, kinda important to specify considering mongolia does that exact same thing for mounted ranged untis.

Second, you're severely overstatting this. Just 100% increased experience would be plenty enough if not overkill all by itself.
I personally have absolutely no problem with how the winged hussar currently works, it might need a slight bumb in CS, unless it has already received that since last time I checked it (can't remember if that was included in that patch) but otherwise it is completely fine. Heavy charge is a crazy powerful tool and formation 1 means your units are going to destroy enemy mounted units. I'll have to admit that they don't exactly have fantastic synergy, heavy charge being most useful versus land-units as they tend to clump up and formation obviously just being useful versus mounted units. But every once in a while you get the ability so slam an enemy lancer into another unit and reap the benefit.

Well yeah, mounted melee instead of mounted ranged, but still such an overlap would make it boring imho.

I agree about Exp (and said it should be 50 or 100, not 100) and I made those more unique options up quickly, which is why I made the simpler option which does little more than give UB the Heavy Charge ability while instead giving UU something else instead. Winged Hussar would work much the same. Heavy Charge bonus damage could perhaps work always.

Heavy Charge is not crazy powerful. Your use sort of exists, but too often when I used it, the thing meant that if I hit a guy with one Hussar, another one won't be able to reach him. This quickly becomes very annoying and too often is more of a pain than it's worth. The last thing I want is for the unit I plan to attack to move out of reach of other units - giving it the damage bonus regardless would fix that. If the damage bonus even exists that is, look below to see why I doubt it. And Formation is neat, but it can be gotten normally anyway. That's really far away from what I've come to expect from UUs, especially ones that are sort-of late-ish.

I don't know if HC bonus damage even exists. I've looked around the XML of vanilla and CBP and found nothing. Indicators of bonus damage definitely did not appear whenever I played and I did not feel a noticeable difference. Does it actually work? If so, how much more does it do? I've looked for civ 5 videos on youtube (only found vanilla but no indication this promotion got changes) and I do not see their units dealing bonus damage if they can't retreat either. No text claiming it does for sure. Weird, if it exists why does neither vanilla UI nor EUI show it? Is it a bug, a lack of text or did Firaxis forget to add bonus damage to the promotion?

 

[Stalker0]

It made Poland incredibly consistent more than incredibly powerful..

In the old version, didn't it always top everyone's chart of the most powerful civ? Heck it was the only "S" class civ for a time.

 

[Funak]

In the old version, didn't it always top everyone's chart of the most powerful civ? Heck it was the only "S" class civ for a time.

This might come as a surprise to you, but people around here loves to over-exaggerate. People also loves to find one detail about something, get completely stuck on it, refuse to see the whole picture and complain about how ridiculous the whole situation is.

Also tier-lists in this game have always been garbage, far too many variables.

 

[ElliotS]

In the old version, didn't it always top everyone's chart of the most powerful civ? Heck it was the only "S" class civ for a time.

Pre-nerf Denmark was much better than Poland ever was. Their UB was better than Poland's UA and UB combined, so Denmark's UA was just a cheery on top.

Even ignoring that I never considered them as scary as Aztecs, Carthage or Egypt. Free social policies are great, but Poland's other stuff is extremely mediocre. I would honestly take almost any UB over the Ducat Stables, and I hate late UUs other than Ship of the Lines. (But that's more personal preference.)

This might come as a surprise to you, but people around here loves to over-exaggerate. People also loves to find one detail about something, get completely stuck on it, refuse to see the whole picture and complain about how ridiculous the whole situation is.

Also tier-lists in this game have always been garbage, far too many variables.

I don't fully agree that tier lists are worthless. Are you telling me Vanilla America wasn't leagues worse than Vanilla Poland? Sure some people were/are bad at making tier lists, but that doesn't mean they don't have any merit. Just because there are a lot of variables doesn't mean that some civs aren't better than others. Otherwise we wouldn't be balancing the civs, now would we?

 

[Funak]

I don't fully agree that tier lists are worthless. Are you telling me Vanilla America wasn't leagues worse than Vanilla Poland? Sure some people were/are bad at making tier lists, but that doesn't mean they don't have any merit. Just because there are a lot of variables doesn't mean that some civs aren't better than others. Otherwise we wouldn't be balancing the civs, now would we?

Technically I said garbage, not worthless, but whatever .

I'm not saying you can't compare civs, and I'm not saying in vanilla that some civs were just straight up better than others in all situations. I'm saying actually trying to make a list, which means comparing all civs to all civs, is crazy talk, especially when so much depends on maptype, mapsize, starting location, neighbors, starting-resources, and such. And even if you somehow manage to normalize all that, you're still dealing with multiple different victory-conditions. I mean just imagine someone going out to claim that Poland is better at science victory than Maya are at domination victory, that's not just apples to oranges comparison, that's like apples to horses comparison.


As far as balancing goes, my main aim when doing these balancing operations haven't been that civs should be comparable to each other, I mean to some degree it always boils down to that, but initial goals have always been the fun-factor. But that's kinda what ties this all together, 'this civ always loses versus this civ' and 'this unique unit is worse than this unique unit' are both cases where fun suffer because of balance.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

So anyone knows what Heavy Charge does damage-wise? As written abovee, I'm starting to feel that the bonus really doesn't exist, but how is it possible it'd not be noticed for so long? I did state many times (I think I did that more than a year ago too) that I felt no real difference between retreating and not retreating damage, but I'd be pretty surprised if that was indeed the case. I might even start playing Poland now to check.

Technically I said garbage, not worthless, but whatever .

I'm not saying you can't compare civs, and I'm not saying in vanilla that some civs were just straight up better than others in all situations. I'm saying actually trying to make a list, which means comparing all civs to all civs, is crazy talk, especially when so much depends on maptype, mapsize, starting location, neighbors, starting-resources, and such. And even if you somehow manage to normalize all that, you're still dealing with multiple different victory-conditions. I mean just imagine someone going out to claim that Poland is better at science victory than Maya are at domination victory, that's not just apples to oranges comparison, that's like apples to horses comparison.


As far as balancing goes, my main aim when doing these balancing operations haven't been that civs should be comparable to each other, I mean to some degree it always boils down to that, but initial goals have always been the fun-factor. But that's kinda what ties this all together, 'this civ always loses versus this civ' and 'this unique unit is worse than this unique unit' are both cases where fun suffer because of balance.

I only partially agree about tier lists, like yeah they're almost impossible to make reliable and, really, only civs that can be compared easily are alike in "genre" or clearly superior. Like, you can probably compare Portugal with Morocco, Siam and Germany, but what if you include civs like Sweden, Zulu, Japan to the equation? They're meant to do different stuff and get different outcome for different stuff. In a situation Morocco/Portugal would love (being able to trade with CSs and being surrounded by them, other players far away), a Swedish player would not be pleased as he'd have no real targets. Even UUs are hard to compare as while some would prefer, let's say, a Conquistador (great at fighting and great secondary effect) to Immortal/Hoplite, what if you start surrounded by CSs? Get enough of those spears and you can easily demand tribute that'll give you an incredible start while also having an edge for any early war. I've had a game where 3-6 was enough to bully for a very long time, making me run away just from tribute yields which was rather sweet... Except I left soon after as Tribute yields are a bit insane if you can get them this easily while starting next to 3 or more CSs. What's easy to say is who is likely/most of the time top tier and who is near the bottom, but besides that a tier list while unreliable might be close to truth.

I also agree fun should be focused, but no civ should be overly OP. I also dislike when civs are very similar at their core but one is better at nearly everything with the niche of the other being close to irrelevance, but I can't think of a pure example of that in VP. France and Denmark are the closest to being that I guess, but France is at least way better at peace, gets its UI turned beastly with Autocracy and has some cultural victory help.

 

[CrazyG]

I think the reference to the tier list was to show agreement. If every single player thinks Poland was too strong, it was probably too strong. Tier lists aren't perfect by any means, but if a certain civ is always at the top or bottom, its decent evidence the civ is too strong or a little bit weak.

And I do really believe that Poland belonged at the top of the lists. I think changing the text to "Receive a free social policy on era advance, starting in medieval era. -10% crime in all cities" would be a good step towards balancing. Pair it with a small change to ducal stables and I think we would have a better balanced and more flavorful civ to play.

 

[Funak]

I think the reference to the tier list was to show agreement. If every single player thinks Poland was too strong, it was probably too strong. Tier lists aren't perfect by any means, but if a certain civ is always at the top or bottom, its decent evidence the civ is too strong or a little bit weak.

And I do really believe that Poland belonged at the top of the lists. I think changing the text to "Receive a free social policy on era advance, starting in medieval era. -10% crime in all cities" would be a good step towards balancing. Pair it with a small change to ducal stables and I think we would have a better balanced and more flavorful civ to play.

That was the first part, monkey see monkey do, and there are a lot of monkeys around .
One guy puts Poland on the top of the list praising it at every turn as the most overpowered civ in the history of the universe, and others are going to place them at the top of their lists without trying them out.
Doesn't really help the cause that it was one of the objectively strongest civs(if not the over all strongest) in vanilla. That kind of thing carries over, and I can remember people ages ago complaining how Babylon didn't look nerfed on paper compared to vanilla, which translates into them being broken (and this was before the wall had the scientist and before the UA gave a bonus to investment, Babylon was pretty much horsehocky-tier at that time).

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

So far still in medieval (some guy has reached renaissance in 900~ and I'm still halfway through medieval), Ducal Stable definitely still needs Horses/Cows/Sheep as of now. Should it be changed to not require those to be built on top of the proposed dojoisation? I think if it provides a promo then it definitely should as otherwise I can see people reloading if their capital has none of these, with AI being in an even worse spot if it continuously produces mounted stuff in cities that cannot get Ducal Stables.

 

[Funak]

So far still in medieval (some guy has reached renaissance in 900~ and I'm still halfway through medieval), Ducal Stable definitely still needs Horses/Cows/Sheep as of now. Should it be changed to not require those to be built on top of the proposed dojoisation? I think if it provides a promo then it definitely should as otherwise I can see people reloading if their capital has none of these, with AI being in an even worse spot if it continuously produces mounted stuff in cities that cannot get Ducal Stables.

It's a unique building, and Imho, unique buildings should not have such restrictions. So I'm absolutely with you on that front.
In fact, if nothing else about Poland is changed, this one thing should still be. I would not even call it a change, it's more of a fix.

 

[CrazyG]

That was the first part, monkey see monkey do, and there are a lot of monkeys around .
One guy puts Poland on the top of the list praising it at every turn as the most overpowered civ in the history of the universe, and others are going to place them at the top of their lists without trying them out.
Doesn't really help the cause that it was one of the objectively strongest civs(if not the over all strongest) in vanilla. That kind of thing carries over, and I can remember people ages ago complaining how Babylon didn't look nerfed on paper compared to vanilla, which translates into them being broken (and this was before the wall had the scientist and before the UA gave a bonus to investment, Babylon was pretty much ****-tier at that time).

Some of the tier list stuff (like Morocco getting hate) really is a monkey-see monkey do thing, I 100% agree people copying others rankings without trying out is a problem. But on stuff like Aztec or Morocco there are people arguing both sides. I've only ever seen 1 side for Poland, and I've tested it and completely agree the old UA was too strong. I don't think anyone has really disagreed

So with that said, how about we drop the classical era freebie, buff the ducal slightly, let it be built anywhere, and then see where Poland is at?

 

[Funak]

Some of the tier list stuff (like Morocco getting hate) really is a monkey-see monkey do thing, I 100% agree people copying others rankings without trying out is a problem. But on stuff like Aztec or Morocco there are people arguing both sides. I've only ever seen 1 side for Poland, and I've tested it and completely agree the old UA was too strong. I don't think anyone has really disagreed

So with that said, how about we drop the classical era freebie, buff the ducal slightly, let it be built anywhere, and then see where Poland is at?

Or, we could come up with something more fun?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Or, we could come up with something more fun?

Any ideas then? My new one, since unit investition is out of the picture because of being probably impossible.

Golden Liberty/Golden Freedoms
Investing into buildings gets them up instantly. All units start with a random free promotion but have double maintenance cost (civilians included). +1 Gold, Culture and Great General points in the capital for every adopted SoPol. (-25% Supply from population?)

Ducal Stable
Can be built everywhere. 3P 3G base, 2P 2G from Sheep/Horse/Cow (less RNG). Loses 15 XP for horses, instead provides free Heavy Charge (+1 movement, pushes back, +XX% damage when attacking) and Morale to mounted units.

Heavy Charge is detrimental if just added as it is now. Pushing the enemy back while forcing you in its position is a bad thing and despite the description, it seems to deal no bonus damage if no retreat. Either that or I'm using it wrong somehow, or the requirement is a bit more complex than just putting stuff on tiles behind a unit - but even if DS doesn't get this charge or even if we go to the old UA (which is not THAT bad), this promotion should still be fixed for WH.

Winged Hussar
Free Charge I instead of Heavy Charge.

 

[Funak]

Any ideas then? My new one, since unit investition is out of the picture because of being probably impossible.

Golden Liberty/Golden Freedoms
Investing into buildings gets them up instantly. All units start with a random free promotion but have double maintenance cost (civilians included). +1 Gold, Culture and Great General points in the capital for every adopted SoPol. (-25% Supply from population?).

Can't instant-build buildings, there are existing synergies with investment that wouldn't work. Beside, twice the hammers from investment would be crazy considering babylon gets an extra 15%.


I'm still saying just giving them a X% discount on policies along with something else.
Or quite possible whenever you adopt a policy you gain X% of its total culture-cost as culture, along with something else.

The something else part is probably going to have to be the fun part, as the discount is just solid, not really fun.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Can't instant-build buildings, there are existing synergies with investment that wouldn't work. Beside, twice the hammers from investment would be crazy considering babylon gets an extra 15%.


I'm still saying just giving them a X% discount on policies along with something else.
Or quite possible whenever you adopt a policy you gain X% of its total culture-cost as culture, along with something else.

The something else part is probably going to have to be the fun part, as the discount is just solid, not really fun.

It wouldn't be crazy at all, I've just viewed some saves, looked at what units would cost with a double cost and my conclusion is it wouldn't be crazy, it'd be by far the worst UA in the game unless we buffed it from the state I've suggested. Double maintenance cost units would be so high, not even Ducal Stable + UA would give you +GPT during the game unless you really had tons of pastures and probably reduced amount of used units (elite but few - fits, Poland in its golden age didn't have many soldiers). Otherwise, you'd probably need Cathedral and/or Thrift and/or Gold Monopoly at the very least to get even, let alone get money. AI playing Casimir would definitely be crippled if he didn't start next to a +Gold monopoly while being smart enough to prioritise it because he'd spend his money on roads too. Seriously, late game that'd be way more than -100-400 Gold per turn in many cases easily, that's not worth the gained Production, let alone be good or crazy. I remember one large game I've had 400 (or even 600, I forgot) unit maintenance in industrial era, and that's despite having free Imperialism garrisons and Authority unit maintenance discount. Without those, I would be losing way more. Pretty much the only way you'd get positive Gold that late in the game is if you also deliberately took that Autocracy policy that lowers all maintenance costs, but being forced to take a bad policy when others in the same situation can take good ones that actually help at conquest is not good. Still, even if you could get +GPT all game, the lost Gold from unit maintenance would not be worth gained Production, which is why other parts of the UA are meant to compensate. It'd need to be +50% unit maintenance cost (and/or not include civilians) at most to not be a detrimental UA overall, but it's unique enough I'd say. Investition could also, instead, have it's Gold cost halved, but even with +50% unit maintenance cost the UA would probably need to provide 1C 1GGP 2Gold per policy to not drown Casimir in early game debts.

Still, even if above wasn't the case, Babylon also gets a free Scientist and faster Scientists.

Discount on policies is way less fun than getting free policies starting from medieval which I'm sure you'll agree with - in one case you get a golden notification with a sound and get to pick one knowing only you do so, whereas in the other you might not even notice it's influence. It'd probably be better to just give a SoPol on reaching Chivalry or something, but whether discount or free one or two, your something fun part would really need to compensate. Can you suggest something? So far I see that almost no one really likes current UA (with me being probably close to neutral but something new'd be cool) so I make suggestions but nobody else makes his own. Make your own, full suggestion containing what you'd consider fun.