Poland

[Enrico Swagolo]

Once again I'm not saying that Poland needs to be a unique butterfly, I'm saying the UA could be replaced with something that's more interesting even if it is still passive.
I would however still shift the focus on the UB from being a weird economic building to being a Ikanda/Dojo style building focusing on mounted units.
This would leave the Poland UA passive while giving Casimir a focus towards mounted combat which imho is enough flavor to be fun.

I'm fine with this. The UA is potent if vanilla, yep.

Seems like a cool idea and I really like it, but if it's to be like Ikanda/Dojo for mounted only, what promotion/bonus should it give? Piast Legacy seems to be a fine name considering Casimir was the last Piast king and Piast Legacy shortened is PL. I suggest maybe mixing it up and having it give one uncommon promotion for free and access to get Piast Legacy, so removing the +25XP for mounted, but instead providing all the mounted stuff with Quick Study so it's less of a passive gain as well as access to PL, which gives Something. Or just Piast Legacy and +25XP stays. Or whatever you guys think I dunno.

I still think UA, if it's not changed, should give the Policies at more distinct points, not 16 techs. Every other era idea would be way too harsh as there's already civs that can outpolicy Poland and some could do so even pre-nerf (though typically for more effort), so maybe just restoring the old UA, but having it only start proccing at medieval? Weaker early as it takes longer to get the first policy when early game is the most important, better later but you get stuff slightly less passively and in a less weird fashion. What people seem to dislike the most about the current one is it feels random to get it from any tech, not progressing an era. If it were to start proccing with medieval, I suggest to rename it Piast Legacy to make more sense.

 

[Funak]

I was thinking switching the experience for some kind of promotion, either unique or just a decently high tier one.

One could even let the building provide the Heavy Charge promotion and change how the Winged hussar unit works instead, although that might not be very popular

I would also like to see the normal Stable bonus to mounted unit production increase slightly and the Royal Stable improve upon this bonus further. This isn't exactly a Poland issue, but the normal stable is fairly meh as far as buildings go.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I was thinking switching the experience for some kind of promotion, either unique or just a decently high tier one.

One could even let the building provide the Heavy Charge promotion and change how the Winged hussar unit works instead, although that might not be very popular

I would also like to see the normal Stable bonus to mounted unit production increase slightly and the Royal Stable improve upon this bonus further. This isn't exactly a Poland issue, but the normal stable is fairly meh as far as buildings go.

Agreed about Stable, it's meh. I build it if I have 2 or more resources, just like the Stone Works but in their case I'll get them if I feel the need to use them for Production routes too, so pretty much they find use every time anyway.

I'd give all Stables +25/33% mounted Production (up from 20%) and perhaps increase their base production from 1 to 2. Not much, but still a significant difference. Also if Ducal Stables are to be like Dough Joe or Ice Candy, then they shouldn't require any pastures to be built anymore for the sake of flexibility in choosing your primary unit producing city, just like Songhai doesn't require Stone for their Mad Mosquito. Otherwise people will reroll when their capital has no horse/sheep around.

 

[Funak]

I'd give all Stables +25/33% mounted Production (up from 20%) and perhaps increase their base production from 1 to 2. Not much, but still a significant difference. Also if Ducal Stables are to be like Dough Joe or Ice Candy, then they shouldn't require any pastures to be built anymore for the sake of flexibility in choosing your primary unit producing city, just like Songhai doesn't require Stone for their Mad Mosquito. Otherwise people will reroll when their capital has no horse/sheep around.

Don't think the Ducal requires pastures (I asked for that requirement removed at the same time I asked for the montezuma Chinampa river-requirement removed).

As far as production, I don't think the Base stable needs more flat production, it's a specialty building, to be built in cities that either have unnatural number of pastures or in cities that are going to build a lot of horse-units.
I would probably go 33% production-bonus for a regular stable and 50% for the Ducal, such bonuses are usually not that appreciated anyways, as people prefer not letting their units die, which limits the value of building new one.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Don't think the Ducal requires pastures (I asked for that requirement removed at the same time I asked for the montezuma Chinampa river-requirement removed).

As far as production, I don't think the Base stable needs more flat production, it's a specialty building, to be built in cities that either have unnatural number of pastures or in cities that are going to build a lot of horse-units.
I would probably go 33% production-bonus for a regular stable and 50% for the Ducal, such bonuses are usually not that appreciated anyways, as people prefer not letting their units die, which limits the value of building new one.

Agreed about regular one, though Dongs-all Staple doesn't need the bonus to be higher than regular Stable's if the promotion(s) of Gazebo turn out to be something good or at least cool.

 

[Funak]

Agreed about regular one, though Dongs-all Staple doesn't need the bonus to be higher than regular Stable's if the promotion(s) of Gazebo turn out to be something good or at least cool.

I think it would be a fun addition. A stable helps you build mounted units faster, a royal stable helps you build mounted units even faster.
Of course that's not meant as a buff, it would probably be used to gap the bridge between the current +25 experience and an alternative promotion granted instead (I mean in general 25 experience is probably stronger than a free promotion for a mounted unit).
It's just a fun thing, kinda like the +siege weapon production on the Ottoman Siege foundry, and the difference between 33% and 50% isn't that big.

 

[Gazebo]

If the new UA is too dull, we could switch back to the old one if that's desired. It isn't that overpowered, truth be told.

G

 

[Txurce]

If the new UA is too dull, we could switch back to the old one if that's desired. It isn't that overpowered, truth be told.

G

It made Poland incredibly consistent more than incredibly powerful..

 

[Funak]

If the new UA is too dull, we could switch back to the old one if that's desired. It isn't that overpowered, truth be told.

Honestly, you're probably right about that. It was slightly overpowered.

I would definitely prefer the old UA over the new one, changing era feels like a better trigger than researching X techs, but there really has to be a better way to do this.


Anyone actually opposed to X% cheaper policies along with some kind of fun trigger?

 

[tu_79]

Honestly, you're probably right about that. It was slightly overpowered.

I would definitely prefer the old UA over the new one, changing era feels like a better trigger than researching X techs, but there really has to be a better way to do this.


Anyone actually opposed to X% cheaper policies along with some kind of fun trigger?

I'm biased towards an investing mechanic, you know.

 

[Funak]

I'm biased towards an investing mechanic, you know.

That was not really the question.

 

[Wodhann]

Gazebo seems to be 100% attached to the "get social policy for free" idea so at this point we might be just wasting our time trying to suggest something new. We're almost 10 pages in and he hasn't budged.

Now regarding the old UA the only thing I'll suggest is, perhaps instead of getting a SP right away when you advance eras, an idea would be to instead get that SP whenever the majority of players in the game have moved onto a new era. That way you don't snowball as much if you're first and are able to pick up better if you're too behind.

Still doesn't solve the non-interactivity issue but this concept will never be interactive anyway so might as well focus on balance.

 

[Funak]

Gazebo seems to be 100% attached to the "get social policy for free" idea so at this point we might be just wasting our time trying to suggest something new. We're almost 10 pages in and he hasn't budged.

Now regarding the old UA the only thing I'll suggest is, perhaps instead of getting a SP right away when you advance eras, an idea would be to instead get that SP whenever the majority of players in the game have moved onto a new era. That way you don't snowball as much if you're first and are able to pick up better if you're too behind.

Still doesn't solve the non-interactivity issue but this concept will never be interactive anyway so might as well focus on balance.

Really? I took this as approval of a new UA that's not overly complicated.

I'm fine with this. The UA is potent if vanilla, yep.

As far as your suggestion for the Classic UA, I'm split. Yeah you make a good point, but doing that just puts it out of your hands, which in my eyes is never really a good idea.

 

[Wodhann]

Really? I took this as approval of a new UA that's not overly complicated.

The only alternative he gave us is going back to the old UA, that's hardly approving a newer one. In fact pretty much the opposite. EDIT: Also, in your quote I think he was referring to changing the UB.

As far as your suggestion for the Classic UA, I'm split. Yeah you make a good point, but doing that just puts it out of your hands, which in my eyes is never really a good idea.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The classic UA concept sucks anyway, I'm just focusing on balance here.

 

[Funak]

The only alternative he gave us is going back to the old UA, that's hardly approving a newer one. In fact pretty much the opposite. EDIT: Also, in your quote I think he was referring to changing the UB.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The classic UA concept sucks anyway, I'm just focusing on balance here.

Hard to focus on balance when we don't know what we are actually allowed to do. I was completely set on this, but now you made me question myself.
Just kidding I never question myself.


Anyways, %discount on policies or possibly gaining part of the policy's cost back when you buy one (same concept, only one artificially slows the process down a bit) and some fun trigger on top of that, you game?
The cheaper policies would keep some of the original UA's essence alive, while going back to the social policy root, which is culture -> policies. Fun stuff on top of that is to make the UA feel more interesting.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

If the new UA is too dull, we could switch back to the old one if that's desired. It isn't that overpowered, truth be told.

G

It could lose the Classical era proc, only starting from medieval. I think it's still arguably weaker both pre and post nerf than the Arabian/Carthaginian UA either way, but both were and/or are slightly weird-to-irrational UAs in this regard, especially the former. The problem is CAIsimir would be doing even worse than he is now though, getting nothing for a slightly longer time so I dunno, but AIs problems shouldn't influence balance imho. Dunno if it'd fix dullness problem, maybe besides a new UA only restoring the old one can do it.

I'm biased towards an investing mechanic, you know.

Me too as I'd like such a thing, but even current UA without going back to pre-nerf would be salvageable if the UB is made more interesting and way cooler to compensate so at least the civ has one thing really going for it to make it an appealing one.

I'd still prefer the invest-related UA with some policy-related stuff also in it as it'd fit Casimir nicely while being unique, but it'd be fine enough either way if at least UB is interesting. I'd rather have both a new UA and a new touch to UB, but I doubt that'll happen.

 

[Funak]

Me too as I'd like such a thing, but even current UA without going back to pre-nerf would be salvageable if the UB is made more interesting and way cooler to compensate so at least the civ has one thing really going for it to make it an appealing one.

I'd still prefer the invest-related UA with some policy-related stuff also in it as it'd fit Casimir nicely while being unique, but it'd be fine enough either way if at least UB is interesting. I'd rather have both a new UA and a new touch to UB, but I doubt that'll happen.

Would just like to point out that a UA based around investment already exists, so it would hardly be unique.

 

[CrazyG]

It could lose the Classical era proc, only starting from medieval. I think it's still arguably weaker both pre and post nerf than the Arabian/Carthaginian UA either way, but both were and/or are slightly weird-to-irrational UAs in this regard, especially the former. The problem is CAIsimir would be doing even worse than he is now though, getting nothing for a slightly longer time so I dunno, but AIs problems shouldn't influence balance imho. Dunno if it'd fix dullness problem, maybe besides a new UA only restoring the old one can do it.

I had the same idea. Its quite a bit weaker than the classic UA, so balanced maybe? This has some flavor in that Poland becomes somewhat weak early but strong later on. Getting that free social policy when you hit classical (which can be as early as your 5th or 6th tech) was very valuable in terms of yields. It also had great utility for getting certain wonders

I've only finished 1 game with the current Poland and he actually felt a little bit weak. This change hurts twice, first because you get fewer social policies and second because they come much later than in the old UA. He does need a strong UA because his UU is average at best. The UB is solid on the right terrain but very situational. I'll put another idea for the UB out there, what if it provided 1 horse?

 

[Funak]

I had the same idea. Its quite a bit weaker than the classic UA, so balanced maybe? This has some flavor in that Poland becomes somewhat weak early but strong later on. Getting that free social policy when you hit classical (which can be as early as your 5th or 6th tech) was very valuable in terms of yields. It also had great utility for getting certain wonders

I've only finished 1 game with the current Poland and he actually felt a little bit weak. This change hurts twice, first because you get fewer social policies and second because they come much later than in the old UA. He does need a strong UA because his UU is average at best. The UB is solid on the right terrain but very situational. I'll put another idea for the UB out there, what if it provided 1 horse?

Would it spawn the horse on a tile or just provide the horse?
I mean it could definitely work but I still prefer my earlier suggestion.

 

[tu_79]

Would it spawn the horse on a tile or just provide the horse?
I mean it could definitely work but I still prefer my earlier suggestion.

I believe it's one horse each stable.