Police use of force

[Traitorfish]

For what it's worth, I'm very much not a smoker, and I think Farm Boy is right on the money. It's scape-goating, when you get right down to it, a way of allowing authority figures to shift the inadequacies of public health-care onto a (disproportionately working class!) minority. These taxes don't and aren't really intended to solve anything, they're just there to make people feel better about the mess we're in.

 

[Borachio]

It's time we working class people wised up, then.

No one is obliged to smoke, drink, or buy lottery tickets.

On the other hand, as far as I can tell, price is as good a way as any of discouraging people from smoking.

 

[Smote]

@Farm Boy

Nice points. Haven't heard that argument before. I agree that the morality argument is better. I didn't realize that cigarette companies are financially helping the public in this way (providing means for people to kill themselves instead of becoming old and ailing).

 

[tetley]

Ah, the beauty of unions. Where not only can you publically insult your boss, but you can negotiate a pay raise while you do it. Public unions are even better--where the public actually gets to pay MORE out of their own paychecks to enable them. And if they can act above even their own boss, what's to stop them from acting above the law?

 

[Smote]

Ah, the beauty of unions. Where not only can you publically insult your boss, but you can negotiate a pay raise while you do it. Public unions are even better--where the public actually gets to pay MORE out of their own paychecks to enable them. And if they can act above even their own boss, what's to stop them from acting above the law?

People, and the law.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I actually agree with you when it comes to the private sector. But when it comes to public sector employees? No. Don't you think there should be protection against being fired for political reasons?

Oh, and look who agrees with me. The Supreme Court! And while I frequently disagree with their rulings, I have always said the rulings should be obeyed because that is how our country works. Just convenient that it's in my favor this time.

First off, there's a difference between criticizing the positions taken by the employer and demonstrating personal disrespect for the employer. That doesn't qualify as 'being fired for political reasons', that is being fired for being an insubordinate jerk that your employer has no use for.

Meanwhile, right in your supreme court reference they state "or the statements were of the sort to cause a substantial interference with the ability of the employee to continue to do his job". I'd say that in a paramilitary organization blatant demonstrations of disrespect towards the chain of command would substantially interfere with job performance.

 

[tetley]

Michigan implemented a law severely restricting public unions, for a lot of the same reasons noted above. And Michigan of all states might have a little experience with unions.

 

[bhsup]

Again, Tim, is the mayor even -in- their chain of command? But even so, I call collectively turning their backs a powerful political (i.e. first amendment speech) statement. And I fail to see how in any way, shape, or form the fact that they turned their backs makes it harder to do their job. It doesn't, unless the mayor begins punitive actions against them because he felt butthurt.

 

[Phrossack]

People are acting like de Blasio did something heinous. It seems his offense was publicly criticizing his police force's use of excessive force. The police have sent a message that if their mayor does not support their every decision, even if they use excessive force, then they can show insubordination. Heaven forbid anyone criticize the police!

 

[JollyRoger]

Can they turn their backs on cigarette sellers and choke the mayor instead?

 

[Farm Boy]

@Farm Boy

Nice points. Haven't heard that argument before. I agree that the morality argument is better. I didn't realize that cigarette companies are financially helping the public in this way (providing means for people to kill themselves instead of becoming old and ailing).

Screwy, isn't it? It's never going to be admitted by the major proponents though. They like the scape goat, they like the taxes, they won't admit the billions in civil forfeiture claimed by the state was probably based on flawed reasoning, they like the industry, profits, jobs, and exports tobacco maintains. The prohibitionist-minded folks won't be willing to lose the faulty appeal to wallets. They probably won't even be lying, they just won't give the idea a fair shake since they won't want the cognitive dissonance of having embraced the mercenary logic that they have or the morality of the religious right.

World's a weird place.

TF: good one with the ''on the money.'' That was good.

 

[tetley]

Reading up on the news, the NYPD police chief several times has spoken in support of his boss, Mayor De Blasio. The police chief called it inappropriate to turn their backs on the mayor, politicizing people's funerals. It looks like the police chief is having trouble controlling his subordinates as well. Which is nothing new: unionized auto workers behaved like they reported to their union boss more than they did to their boss boss as well.

 

[Flying Pig]

Quite frankly they seem totally out of order - such things are usually remedied by a 'change of culture' involving a lot of rolling heads. Perhaps if some of them were replaced by heads of a different colour the problem might improve?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Again, Tim, is the mayor even -in- their chain of command? But even so, I call collectively turning their backs a powerful political (i.e. first amendment speech) statement. And I fail to see how in any way, shape, or form the fact that they turned their backs makes it harder to do their job. It doesn't, unless the mayor begins punitive actions against them because he felt butthurt.

Yes actually he is. The chief of police works for the mayor, just like the joint chiefs work for the president. He is their democratically elected civilian command and oversight. And as pointed out, the chief of police, who works for the mayor and most assuredly is these knuckleheads boss also said, before the fact, that their actions would be inappropriate.

As to 'making it harder to do their job'...in a paramilitary organization insubordination carries a much more damaging result than it does among paper shufflers, because there are armed people and high risk/high stress conditions where trust between superiors and subordinates is required. So I would say that the citation from the supreme court you provided could easily be fitted to this situation if a few of the ringleaders can be singled out for significant discipline and all involved be appropriately dealt consequences.

 

[JollyRoger]

99% of cops make the rest of them look bad.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

99% of cops make the rest of them look bad.

We have a winner!

 

[MobBoss]

Can they turn their backs on cigarette sellers and choke the mayor instead?

Sometimes...not often..but sometimes...I really like how you think.

99% of cops make the rest of them look bad.

Yeah, that didn't last long.

 

[JollyRoger]

Sorry to imply there was an elitist 1%.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Well!
That escaladed.
http://nypost.com/2014/12/29/arrests-plummet-following-execution-of-two-cops/

It’s not a slowdown — it’s a virtual work stoppage.

NYPD traffic tickets and summonses for minor offenses have dropped off by a staggering 94 percent following the execution of two cops — as officers feel betrayed by the mayor and fear for their safety, The Post has learned.

The dramatic drop comes as Police Commissioner Bill Bratton and Mayor Bill de Blasio plan to hold an emergency summit on Tuesday with the heads of the five police unions to try to close the widening rift between cops and the administration.

The unprecedented meeting is being held at the new Police Academy in Queens at 2 p.m., sources said.

Angry union leaders have ordered drastic measures for their members since the Dec. 20 assassination of two NYPD cops in a patrol car, including that two units respond to every call.

It has helped contribute to a nose dive in low-level policing, with overall arrests down 66 percent for the week starting Dec. 22 compared with the same period in 2013, stats show.

Citations for traffic violations fell by 94 percent, from 10,069 to 587, during that time frame.

Summonses for low-level offenses like public drinking and urination also plunged 94 percent — from 4,831 to 300.

Even parking violations are way down, dropping by 92 percent, from 14,699 to 1,241.

Drug arrests by cops assigned to the NYPD’s Organized Crime Control Bureau — which are part of the overall number — dropped by 84 percent, from 382 to 63.

The Post obtained the numbers hours after revealing that cops were turning a blind eye to some minor crimes and making arrests only “when they have to” since the execution-style shootings of Officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowdown

 

[Phrossack]

Again, what was the mayor's "betrayal?" And what did he have to do with the deaths of the two officers?