Political Philosophy discussion

Do you seriously think your democrats are any less corrupt or any less evil and controlled by big money than Trump was? Oh the naivete. I know you live in the system and thus don't have a good perspective to observe it from an outside context. But if you were you'd see that the only difference between your two parties is the rhetoric they have. They are both the same on every issue that actually counts just in a different coat.

Hell, they even flip to each others views every so often just so that they stay fresh and you guys buy it.

And of course they both demonize populism which is a fundamentally anti democratic stance that has existed since ancient Rome as a stick to beat any candidate that appeals to the people as opposed to the political nobility.
I live outside of America, so I don't eat "both sides are same" propaganda - from what I heard its mostly from Republicans. Politicians are mostly stuck in 20th century though.
Yes, they are similar though - most of difference is Democrats being mostly culturally progressive and Republicans being culturally conservative.
Also Republicans block most of stuff, that Democrats propose, last time Democrats had full control was in 2008-2010 - House, Senate and President.

Also I know, that wealthy have easy time effectively controlling US government.
So do you think, that corporate dictatorship is unavoidable?
Democrats and Republicans could be dissolved and form two parties - neoliberal (isn't maintaining status quo conservative?) and progressive (like Bernie, AOC and others).
 
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And of course they both demonize populism which is a fundamentally anti democratic stance that has existed since ancient Rome as a stick to beat any candidate that appeals to the people as opposed to the political nobility.
Interesting that you refer to ancient Rome. Here is an essay from Politico that might shed some light on a system change in ancient times that destroyed the democratic process for more than 18 centuries: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/03/donald-trump-julius-caesar-433956 - this essay was written slightly before the election, and it presents a possible nightmare that the USA might have avoided now, and the events of yesterday proved that some of these assumptions were hardly far-fetching. So: At least this time, both sides were most certainly not equal. As a libertarian myself, I certainly hope the ambitions of a certain senator who wanted to become presidential candidate without even becoming a member of the party that was supposed to bring him into the White House can be held at bay, but right now pretty much everything to the right of Stalin would be an improvement over what we have seen happening, especially in the last few days.
 
Democrats and Republicans could be dissolved and form two parties - neoliberal (isn't maintaining status quo conservative?) and progressive (like Bernie, AOC and others).
They have things locked down exactly as they want it - what would make them want to do this? Nothing, to both sides, is really more important than making sure the Progressives actually make no headway here since it's really the wealthy vs the people and the wealthy have ALL the power right now.
 
Wow... I knew there were quite a few comparables to Hitler and how he captured the attention of his base and propelled the SS to power, but seeing so many to Caesar is perhaps even more disturbing.

History, as everyone here should realize, does indeed repeat itself, particularly when power hungry individuals study how it was done previously and choose to attempt to walk the same paths, thinking they'll get a different outcome that is more beneficial to themselves somehow.
 
So comrades, what is most likely by 2050 or 2100 AD (in C2C civics terms)?
civics.png

Totalitarianism /Martial Law/Divine Right/Conscription/State Church
Nationalist/Corporatism/Church/Fiat Monet/Capitalist
Propaganda/World Language/Closed Borders/Corporate Owned/Landfills

Its mostly traditional and authoritarian stuff - probably average dystopia.

OR:
Technocracy/Polystate/Separation of Power/Robotic/Secularism
Egalitarian/Green/Eco Friendly/Digital/Automated
Online/World Language/Virtual Citizenship/Organic Farming/Recycled

One set for long term future, so making sure stuff doesn't rot.
Who needs to abolish education and speed of light, since we have roboslaves doing most of jobs, pristine environment, glorious tech, and at least few hundred years of life expectancy?
Patriotism, religions, spirituality, conservatism, capitalism and libertarianism are still welcome here.

Status quo in western countries could be summarized by:
Democracy/Bureaucracy/Separation of Power/Voluntary/Secularism
Egalitarian/Regulated/Subsidized/Fiat Money/Capitalist
Compulsory/World Language/Secured Borders/Incentivized/Landfills
There could be several equally good civics for that in each category though.

Status quo, but if you really don't trust some people (they are after everyone).
Totalitarianism/Martial Law/Single Party/Mercenaries/(Inquisitorial or Antireligion, no inbetween)
Nationalist/(Corporatism or Planned depending who controls economy)/Survival/Credit/Capitalist
Propaganda/World Language/(Open or Closed borders, no inbetween)/(Corporate or State Owned, just llike Economy)/Not Recycling.
There is no difference between Stalinist communism (economy wise) and capitalism, if billionaires are actual government anyway ;)
 
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History, as everyone here should realize, does indeed repeat itself, particularly when power hungry individuals study how it was done previously and choose to attempt to walk the same paths, thinking they'll get a different outcome that is more beneficial to themselves somehow.

Except they can get a different outcome and get out of it scott free. Just look at Octavian, after his adopted father Julius was assassinated he took the reins of absolute power and became Imperator of Rome. Despite essentially being a despot not once did he suffer and all his enemies were defeated. He ended up living to the ripe old age of 75 (which was quite remarkable for back then) and died of old age.

So yeah unless there is someone to oppose your power and they are able to defeat you then you'll never suffer from the consequences of your own actions. History is littered with people who got off scott free, it's those instances in particular that power hungry people hedge their bets of trying to become.
 
Except they can get a different outcome and get out of it scott free. Just look at Octavian, after his adopted father Julius was assassinated he took the reins of absolute power and became Imperator of Rome. Despite essentially being a despot not once did he suffer and all his enemies were defeated. He ended up living to the ripe old age of 75 (which was quite remarkable for back then) and died of old age.

So yeah unless there is someone to oppose your power and they are able to defeat you then you'll never suffer from the consequences of your own actions. History is littered with people who got off scott free, it's those instances in particular that power hungry people hedge their bets of trying to become.
Good to keep in mind too. It's not as if Trump hasn't pushed the playbook far past what Nixon was ever able to achieve with many of the same strategies but sticking to his guns and pursuing that goal of being above the law even harder and it has been pretty impressive to be honest just how far he was able to go. If Nixon had half a clue how much further he could've taken it I'm sure he never would've resigned and would've just doubled down with every challenge.

At this point, it's looking like the next person in this cycle won't be sending a hardly armed mob to the capital with double talk of insurrection posing as protest speech next time, they'll be sending a heavily armed militia with the outright demand that his followers completely establish power for him, seeing how far even an attack with kid gloves on has come this time.
 
At this point, it's looking like the next person in this cycle won't be sending a hardly armed mob to the capital with double talk of insurrection posing as protest speech next time, they'll be sending a heavily armed militia with the outright demand that his followers completely establish power for him, seeing how far even an attack with kid gloves on has come this time.

It'll be much worse then that. Rather the militia will come guns blazing first, ask questions/demands later. These groups want blood and they fantasize over killing their fellow man. It allows them to take vengeance upon minorities and subgroups that they believe are a cancer that has to be rid of. Hence why they won't come with demands but start a civil war immediately, they know the carnage of battle gives them plenty of an excuse to commit war crimes and "cleanse" the nation as they see fit.
 
While you're talking about next time like it's years away, they are planning more of the same as early as the 17th, and the 20th itself seems like a juicy target, especially if the Capitol police hierarchy continue to aid the terrorists. Twitter's reasoning for banning the realDonaldTrump account is that his last tweets must be suspected of being dog-whistles to encourage further terrorism. In particular, they interpret "I'm not going to attend" as "I won't be harmed however indiscriminately you shoot or bomb". What if the bombs brought by the terrorists go off - inside the building - next time?
 
While you're talking about next time like it's years away, they are planning more of the same as early as the 17th, and the 20th itself seems like a juicy target, especially if the Capitol police hierarchy continue to aid the terrorists. Twitter's reasoning for banning the realDonaldTrump account is that his last tweets must be suspected of being dog-whistles to encourage further terrorism. In particular, they interpret "I'm not going to attend" as "I won't be harmed however indiscriminately you shoot or bomb". What if the bombs brought by the terrorists go off - inside the building - next time?
Yeah all possible. The Arab Spring revolutions were all planned and executed through dog whistles on social media so we'd be fools to underestimate how it could continue to work that way with ease.

What gets me about this is they wave the American flag while dividing the nation, forgetting that one of our primary values as a nation is united we stand, divided we fall. It's as true then as now. This is all the work of foreign psyops dividing us deeply and so many of us are just too stupid to see it. It's one thing to disagree on Globalism or Economic policy, civics choices and so on, but it's gone beyond that into a sense that it's 'our America' against 'their America' when our whole concept all along was to enable OUR America to be the one where we all had a voice, and yes we won't always agree with one another, so we let the majority decide, for the most part, on policy, as that is what Democracy is about, much as many wish to demonize this as being 'Mob Rule' whenever that opinion goes against theirs.

Only for some this is about racism - for most they think it's about opposing communism, socialism, globalism, islam etc... all of which if they understood the concepts beyond the fact that they've been made 'trigger words' that indicate 'alien agendas we need to hate people for embracing because we would never agree to take on those concepts (whatever they actually are)' - and the truth is they rarely actually understand those concepts at all.

The left is being equally radicalized to trigger-hate 'capitalism' without it being very understood either - 'it's a system designed to make slaves out of everyone but the wealthy' I often hear, when in fact, the goal of the system is to make it possible for anyone to break free from poverty.

We all need some honest education out here that unifies how we speak about things rather than turns particular words into emotional bombs where we hear them and suddenly cannot think anything but positive or negative about them. Yes, we have problems and need to fix them. And if we weren't stuck with a government that's mostly serving the whims of wealth and we could truly have more honest and educated discussions about these issues and why and how our systems are designed to fail as a feature rather than a bug, we would maybe be able to start releasing our anger and start working better together and the solutions start looking more obvious.

But we also have to figure out how to keep all this whispering in our ears things we sorta agree with that then keep pushing us to further radicalized edges from making it impossible to understand without demonizing the people at the other side of the boat. We are ALL part of the problem at times.

One thing that MIGHT help is a game like this. How? I cannot say how many ways my perspective has changed due to seeing the world through the various consequential, rather than intentionally manipulated, lenses of our perspective in playing 'the state'. I have realized that the world will NEVER be safe from the technology we invented for war without eventually globalizing into one peaceful and harmonious nation. I have realized that our prehistoric origins must have left a very deep scar on our psyches that make us all act in certain ways that often runs counter to the idea of a cooperative society, much as it also gives us the imperative to work in cooperative manners as well. I know we can promote or propose or color the results of a particular religious or political worldview with the game as it is structured and I like that we try NOT to color things to one given conclusion but rather show all the pros and cons that people claim about them, perhaps in an effort to show how imperfect every system actually is. And the more honest as designers we are in this effort, the more we help to get people to see how much we may actually agree about a lot we THINK we disagree on.

We can also do more to show how such ideas can be weaponized and used to tear a nation apart without war even being waged. We can show how destabilizing the leading nation may become a hugely destructive problem for everyone. We can show that such a leading superpower may be exerting great expense and power out of an understanding that it is responsible for letting a blackball tech genie out of the bottle - thus responsible for never letting that technology that could tear the entire planet apart from ever being allowed to do so. We could show why rival powers desperately want to cast the world into that destabilization so THEY can ascend to that place of supremacy instead, and how dangerous a goal for all of us that actually is because of the likelihood of absolute devastation that would engulf us all if they ever get their way.

Yes, globally, the US has overexerted its power, and yes, understandably, we've made enemies out of nearly everyone, and it makes sense why we can see nearly every rival nation doing all it can to create unrest here - if we destroy ourselves, it seems that 'war' may not be necessary to allow them the room to 'breath' without our policies and embargoes and other forms of financial diplomacy tools 'holding them down' - often I'm sure in ways that feel very unfair.

Funny how any 'player' in this game would feel that way about a leading entity and how easy it is for our prehistoric tribal brains to demonize and mistrust the intentions we don't understand of others - particularly others with power, and how we never really feel comfortable unless it's 'us', whoever or whatever groups you put yourself in the Venn Diagram of Humanity into are 'in charge'. And few of us care if we are deserving of a punishment so much as we care we aren't experiencing one.

But I'm going to pause to make the point again - and it stands for us ALL on this one small rock we could easily destroy with our frustrations boiling over - United we stand, Divided we fall. Globalism doesn't HAVE to mean we must figure out how to suppress most people on the planet - it CAN mean that we can somehow learn how to respect the wide variety of our worldviews and rejoice that our differences, thanks to our ability to specialize in varying ways based on those differences, make us stronger in a greater union, not weaker.
 
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The left is being equally radicalized to trigger-hate 'capitalism' without it being very understood either - 'it's a system designed to make slaves out of everyone but the wealthy' I often hear, when in fact, the goal of the system is to make it possible for anyone to break free from poverty.

Sorry but LMFAO. Your programming is showing again. You're talking about the system that incentivizes obscene wealth and makes corporations more powerful than governments.

You go on to lament being "stuck with a government that's mostly serving the whims of wealth". It may be possible to have capitalism without this occurring, but it's never actually happened, has it?

It is the responsibility of the nation to eliminate domestic poverty. "Letting people break free of" it is the social darwinist rhetoric of the bloodsucking kleptocrats who profit from that never happening.

The problem with the rest of the post is that it assumes everyone can be philosophical and reflective. Whereas the weaponized divide at present depends on one side (and it is only the Republican side) never engaging their brains.

And few of us care if we are deserving of a punishment so much as we care we aren't experiencing one.

But I'm going to pause to make the point again - and it stands for us ALL on this one small rock we could easily destroy with our frustrations boiling over - United we stand, Divided we fall. Globalism doesn't HAVE to mean we must figure out how to suppress most people on the planet - it CAN mean that we can somehow learn how to respect the wide variety of our worldviews and rejoice that our differences, thanks to our ability to specialize in varying ways based on those differences, make us stronger in a greater union, not weaker.

You ended good. Nice one!
 
Sorry but LMFAO. Your programming is showing again. You're talking about the system that incentivizes obscene wealth and makes corporations more powerful than governments.

You go on to lament being "stuck with a government that's mostly serving the whims of wealth". It may be possible to have capitalism without this occurring, but it's never actually happened, has it?

It is the responsibility of the nation to eliminate domestic poverty. "Letting people break free of" it is the social darwinist rhetoric of the bloodsucking kleptocrats who profit from that never happening.

The problem with the rest of the post is that it assumes everyone can be philosophical and reflective. Whereas the weaponized divide at present depends on one side (and it is only the Republican side) never engaging their brains.
I bet Bernie Sanders must be too right wing for you, same with western and northern Europe :D
Would be Democratic Socialism left wing enough?

Anti-Intellectualism is problematic too - both from far left and far right.
I saw lots of examples of it here, including this thread, from several people.

Its very ironic, since mod itself shows, that education and science are tools, that can be used for good.
Returning to monke in middle of ape to angel transition isn't an option ;)
Scientific thinking started in Renaissance, we had Industrial and Atomic era.
Now we are in Information era.
Then there is Nanotech, Transhuman, Galactic, Cosmic and Transcendental eras in mod.
By Galactic humans are one with technology.

By the way there are funny conspiracy theories, where we are going to be liberated by angels (Apocalypse, or equivalent in mainstream religions), aliens (all sort of spiritualism/lesser religions/cults) or automatons (Technological singularity, because some nerds find reality often disappointing) as if reality was game of Stellaris.
They wouldn't except to be treated as confused children in case of such invasions.
 
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I bet Bernie Sanders must be too right wing for you, same with western and northern Europe :D
Would be Democratic Socialism left wing enough?
I said capitalism and democracy are incompatible in practice, if not in theory. If that doesn't answer your questions, get better questions.

The rest of your rant, to the extent it was understandable or even coherent, was unrelated to my post.
 
I said capitalism and democracy are incompatible in practice, if not in theory. If that doesn't answer your questions, get better questions.

The rest of your rant, to the extent it was understandable or even coherent, was unrelated to my post.
So Democratic Socialism then ;)
Green Technocratic Socialism is fine too - essentially putting environment, education, technology, and all people as high priority stuff.

Also rest of stuff wasn't related to your post, but was related to this thread in general.
Part of it I wrote in half joking manner, since anti-technology/science/education views shouldn't be here at first place, as in mod science/tech takeovers everything :D
 
Why the environment? I mean, don't get me wrong. We shouldn't seek to destroy nature. But we definitively shouldn't seek to preserve it for its own sake either. Nature and the environment should be treated like a domesticated animal. You milk it for all it's worth but make sure to do so in a way that does not make it die or deteriorate so that you loose the ability to do so.
 
Why the environment? I mean, don't get me wrong. We shouldn't seek to destroy nature. But we definitively shouldn't seek to preserve it for its own sake either. Nature and the environment should be treated like a domesticated animal. You milk it for all it's worth but make sure to do so in a way that does not make it die or deteriorate so that you loose the ability to do so.
I mean currently environment is overexploited, so environment being high priority would be temporary until stuff becomes sustainable.
New civic set would be then status quo, just focused on different things.
Using nuclear power and renewable energy instead of fossil fuels would be better - energy production would be much less taxing for environment in this case.
 
It may be possible to have socialism without the firing squads, but it's never actually happened, has it?
Nordics, France, Germany, Canada aren't left enough for him ;)
They are doing great in many rankings like HDI, or economic competitiveness.

For some people socialism is strong welfare system (or unconditional basic income), strong pro-employee/consumer/union laws, and state education, healthcare, housing and few more different services.

Authoritarian forms of socialism/communism always were disaster though.
 
It may be possible to have socialism without the firing squads, but it's never actually happened, has it?
It's never happened without the CIA funding assassination squads and insurgencies. Who did Allende shoot?
 
It's never happened without the CIA funding assassination squads and insurgencies. Who did Allende shoot?
Cold war generally messed up stuff... we got messed up countries outside of Western/Northern Europe, hypercapitalist USA and fear of nuclear power from it among other things.
USA has so much to learn from France ;)

Harder strains of socialism should be left for when we convert to technocracy and get robotic workforce ;)
Also immigrants will want to live in your country, if it provides all needs even to poorest 0.1% of people.

So we have:
Expensive wants and expensive needs - countries during serious crisis, or generally mismanaged.
Expensive wants and cheap needs - countries with good welfare and high taxes.
Expensive needs and cheap wants - countries with no or weak welfare system and low taxes.
Cheap needs and wants - tiny countries (export/tourism instead of taxation), or ones with ultra advanced economy (needs serious investments in education and research).
 
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