Pre-ChaNES: Into the Void

Scientist have already mapped the human genome, clone animals, and messed around with the genetic material of viruses. I don't think it to unreasonable to assume genetic modification of humans or animals is to far away. I also though the problem with fusion reactors was they were to hot not that we couldn't make one.

Speaking as someone in biological research - hahahahahaha. Though I won't of course rule it out, I consider making a dog/tiger engineered into a useful soldier in the next half century to be rather unlikely. In that time we'll be engineering designer protists and plants, and removing genetic diseases and that will all be at the cellular level.

Elephants are incapable of using tools, and thus they're probably incapable of building a civilization. Tool use is the main benefit of being bipedal, at least in this context.

Thats assuming you're starting off with a quadruped and need to make them a tool user - a hexapod or something with an abundance of muscular hydrostats could take a very different path to tool usage.
 
a) That's what they all say. ;) Even if true, that just means that elephants are lazy, unmotivated slobs, which frankly makes their intelligence and dexterity very much negligible as far as we're concerned.
b) This discussion already moved to While We Wait, just so you know.
 
b) This discussion already moved to While We Wait, just so you know.
lurker's comment: ...and was rapidly subsumed by astrophysics.
 
Das, those articles would be very interesting to me even if Russia is somehow not made a major player.

I wholeheartedly agree that a Pan-Islamic state is impossible. If anything, the Islamic world is looking like it will continue to factionalize. The revolutionary spirit of the times, wherein religion and fanatical nationalism are combining to create the thought that you have to go after any oppressor to your right with deadly force even suicidal force, will continue to grow even if America left the region. By 2053, there could be an independent Baluchistan, 3 or 4 Iraqs, a Palistinian state and many more. The success of the small Emirates(what with the UAE surging to the front of the world's thirst for grandiose with their breathtaking engineering projects and Qatar having a chance for the Olympics) also will give currency to the subdivision of Islam. Dar-Al-Islam will continue to be an Umbrella term. Neither Christendom nor Dar-Al-Islam is going to unite anytime soon.

On the issue of the African Union though, I would have to disagree Das. The aspiration for an African Union or a United States of Africa is a very stong movement even now. Ban Ki-Moon even mentioned it in a recent article for the Asia Society(whoever is the PRC, this might be interesting to you too. Africa has a population of 1 Billion youth who are more wordly and dynamic than their predecessors. This super-majority has grown up seeing the atrocities that a divided Africa has had. They're tired of AIDS and Poverty and Wars, and the only major positive force in their lifetime is the African Union. But they would also recognize the inherent flaws in the AU, which is based off of the will of the previous generation and all to often helps keep corrupt leaders in power. The United Africa movement would be a grassroots movement. I quote respected African philosopher, economist and forecaster Sanou Mbaye:

"United States of Africa would...stem from the grassroots, through existing institutions of civil society like professional associations, trade unions, and other non-governmental organizations.

It is worth remembering that the people who were instrumental in establishing the best and most enduring union of states in history, the United States of America, were political activists, not heads of states. In Latin America, the only breakthrough that dented post-independence domination by the descendants of European colonizers came from a black freedom fighter and unifier, Simon Bolivar, who united the region before being forced into exile in Jamaica. Now, Bolivar has an heir in Hugo Chávez, and the Latin American political landscape is changing at breakneck speed under his inspiration and leadership.

Inspired leadership is crucial to any process of nation building, and Africans should look to figures such as Bolivar, Martin Luther King, Jr., Georges Padmore, W.E.B. Dubois, Kwame Nkrumah, and Cheikh Anta Diop to mount a resistance movement against their mostly corrupt and incompetent leaders....[this way] they [can] fulfill the dream of a common African identity and the establishment of a United States of Africa. "


Now Wangari Maathai, the 2004 Nobel Peace Laureate and presiding officer of the African Union’s Economic, Social, and Cultural Council (ECOSOCC) outlines that with debt cancellation and even a base empowerment of ordinary Africans, all of this can easily come to fruitition. The scenarios for a United Africa are very plausible and indeed almost likely. The idea of a efficient, unified Europe Superpower is about as likely. I'm not saying that that is unrealistic, I'm just saying this isn't either. The African's huge strides toward a common military and a common currency need to be taken into account. Richard N. Haass, former Director of Policy Planning in the US State Department, and President of The Council on Foreign Relations sees it as a very likely occurrence as well, especially if AU reform is carried out.

Former French Prime Minister Michel Rocard points out that the "twenty-first century could well bring faster global improvement in political ethics than at any time in the past" and goes on to point out that "in but half a century...Africa has eliminated more than half of the despots that have blighted its era of independence" and he predicts that will only speed up.

On a side note, he also give credit to the case for Indonesia in the same article: "The electoral process in Indonesia is reaching a level of equity and accountability hitherto unknown in that country."

What would need to happen is a building up of infrastructure and other instituitions for a decade or two, and then the United States of Africa would be ready to be born. It would have birthpangs(as America did), but an old African Proverb goes "when the spiders unite, they can tie of the Lion". If the African states unite, they would definitely bring great things to this NES.
 
Well, I would have to say that is an almost uniform rejection of any conglomerated Islamic states. However, I'll make a little argument for it before actually switching to India or Russia...

The Sunni Muslim states in the western portion of the Middle East all face a common enemy: Israel. When the oil runs out or becomes obsolete, they will stop getting support from America. Israel will not. That seems, to me, a legitimate reason for a union between the majority of Israel's neighbors, and perhaps Saudi Arabia and Libya. Besides, I'm rather stuck on this idea for the moment...

As for Indonesia and a few other Muslim states in that area, I can see a good possibility there as well. So, I'll do some research as you try and shoot down my other idea... :)
 
The Sunni Muslim states in the western portion of the Middle East all face a common enemy: Israel. When the oil runs out or becomes obsolete, they will stop getting support from America. Israel will not. That seems, to me, a legitimate reason for a union between the majority of Israel's neighbors, and perhaps Saudi Arabia and Libya. Besides, I'm rather stuck on this idea for the moment...
Decloak: Israel isn't seeking nuclear weapons for the purpose of lording it over / blackmailing everyone else nearby and isn't really interested in taking territory from its neighbors anymore--Iran is, and wants to become a regional power the expense of those nearby. It's more likely that Arab powers would move to counteract Iran than Israel, particularly as a large number of historical precedents make it inadvisable to mess with Israel (and, in a pinch, Israel likely has around 200 nuclear weapons for defensive purposes).

On top of that, different states have different opinions of Israel; Egypt these days is mostly ambivalent as a result of the Yom Kippur War. Plus I don't see the royal families of Jordan and Saudi Arabia (or the hereditary dictators of Syria and Libya) randomly giving up their power to collectively fight their sometimes enemy Israel when it's more or less bogged down with the internal issue of the Palestinians.

Then you add on top of that what's been collectively said about the movement already, and it seems implausible.

On the topic of Indonesia, Orson Scott Card was apparently a big believer in its capabilities, though, on the other hand, his interpretation of the future international political stage is a little loopy.
 
Well, after reading heavily into a few things and having some interesting discussions, I can now say that I will make Indonesia. Hopefully I'll be able to come up with all of the things that are supposed to be in the stats in a reasonable time frame...
 
A Brief History of the American Space Program

2019

After several years of planning, the first manned mission to Mars is made by American astronauts. Rock samples and other tests were performed, although no colonization effort was even considered. Although America was the first nation to land on Mars, they would quickly fall behind for the other points in the new race to spread throughout space.

2027

American astronauts arrive on Venus, only six months after the European Union shuttle arrived. This landing, while for a long time deemed to dangerous, was finally able to be done thanks to new advances in heat protection, life support systems, and long range propulsion systems. Again no permanent colony is attempted. At this time the idea of building colonies on the Moon and Mars gain much popularity, and the government surprisingly allocates more money to the space program in order to keep up with the other competing nations.

2034

European physicists develop a way to perform the nuclear fission reactions in a very small space, very useful in the development of space travel. Space travel suddenly becomes much cheaper, and plans for a European, an American, and a Chinese space station begin to unfold.

2038

The European Union finishes their new space station, equipped with a fueling station, areas of land used for agriculture, and a lab for experiments.

2041

America finishes their own space station, the Pytheas Space Station. Very similar to the European space station, it also contains additional labs for the testing of animal behavior and development in low-gravity, along with a small fission reactor.

2051

The first Moon colonies are constructed by the European Union, soon to be followed by American and then Chinese colonies.

(Ok, I don't know a lot about space travel and such. How do these histories sound? And also, could the leaders of the European Union and China contribute some information about their space programs/accomplishments?
 
(Ok, I don't know a lot about space travel and such. How do these histories sound? And also, could the leaders of the European Union and China contribute some information about their space programs/accomplishments?
Decloak: Bad, given:
  • America, Russia, and China, are all aiming for Lunar missions by or before 2020 and all have expressed plans to follow up immediately with permanent bases.
  • Lunar bases are precursors to Mars, which so far only America and Russia have announced intentions on (circa 2030 - 2035).
  • There's no immediate reason to go to Venus. None. And it would take quite the advances to do so.
  • There's no need for "miniaturized fission reactors"--they already exist (see: pebble-bed reactors, which can be made roughly the size of garbage cans) and their deployment in space would be heavily criticized (as it is today) due to a roughly 1:100 failure rate of rocket launches, which then shower fallout along an intended trajectory.
  • Fission power has little contribution to ease of space travel unless you're using a nuclear rocket or an ion drive.
  • Fission power has virtually no contribution to the cost of space travel as any reactor, even with the above systems, couldn't be deployed on the ground and would have to be ignited in orbit. The immense cost of space travel at present is a direct result of the prohibitive cost of getting mass out of Earth's gravity well.
  • The European Space Agency is vastly far behind its American, Russian, or even Chinese counterparts, vis-a-vis manned exploration, and is unlikely to do more than piggy-back with one of these three, by far most likely NASA. Similarly with JAXA.
  • Space station construction has more or less been deprioritized for the foreseeable future with the lack of success and funding of the multinational (NASA, Roskosmos, ESA, JAXA) ISS.
  • A space elevator is considered at least semi-seriously a major goal of NASA and certain American private enterprises, and would minimize ground-to-orbit costs tremendously if developed.
  • Space-based kinetic kill vehicles are at least a possibility of future American military developments and this may/may not result in discussion of expanding the Space Treaty (which only covers nuclear weapons).
  • Similarly given the Space Treaty prohibits nations from claiming extraterrestrial bodies or portions of them, it may require amendment in light of manned, permanent expeditionary efforts.
 
Maybe we should take Symphony on as our tech advisor? Certainly seems to make sense to me, he obviously knows the most...

Indonesia
Leader: Will add later (Fuschia)
Capital: Jakarta, Earth
Government: Presidential Republic
Technology: 2053 (Indonesia's poor economy has kept it rather far behind the world's super powers. It has also been very careful to maintain its biodiversity while continuing with modernizations. Because of this, it has a technology level slightly below average, although most areas of Indonesia have yet to see any benefits from advanced technology, the majority of it being centered on Java, Sumatra, and Borneo)
Army Stats: Indonesia's army is of average size for its population.
Army Description: Mostly infantry with a healthy dose of air and naval support. Quick transportation is their greatest asset, as it is essential to island combat; helicopters and small, quick boats are in large quantities to allow for easy transportation.
Navy Stats: This will need some work...
Navy Description: Indonesia started its space program, LAPAN, slightly after India began theirs, but have not advanced it very far, although they have landed a man on the moon and mars, as well as having sent probes to all of the planets within our Solar System, with the exception of Pluto, because its not a planet.
Total Economy: Economy is still based firmly in farming and small family run businesses. This is only different on the main islands, which have been heavily modernized, both in infrastructure and job availability.
Planets Occupied: Earth
Avg. Infrastructure: Poor
Control: High
Total Population: Somewhere near 500 million
Military Cap: No idea here...
Education: Good
Avg. Safety & Health: Good
Avg. Patriotism: High
Projects: I'll assume none, unless I come up with something
History: In 2008, the elections ousted the Golkar party and placed the PDI-P in fairly firm control of the government. Constitutional amendments in response to the actions of President Suharto continued to move forward as planned, passing without major incident. Years passed, and Indonesia continued closeness to the United States and grew further and further from China, who they blamed for many of their economic problems.
Indonesia consumed two of its neighbors, Malaysia and Brunei, in 2023 and 2047, respectively. A few complaints were lodged to the United Nations by some of Indonesia's neighbors(East Timor most vehemently), but the annexation went without many problems. Both nations were mostly Muslim, keeping Indonesia's vast Islamic majority.
Indonesia launched its space program in 2010, slightly after India launched its first probe to the moon. They quickly developed their own design of rocket, sending a man into space in 2012. Receiving a good deal of help from NASA and the United States, they landed a man on the moon in 2021, and had sent probes to every planet in the solar system by 2029. In 2040, they landed a man on mars, becoming the fifth nation in the world to do so. Although yet to develop a permanent or even semi-permanent base on the moon, plans continue to go ahead for the founding of one in 2058.


More a rough draft then anything else, the dates, especially, are very malleable. Feel free to suggest things, whether they be additions or subtractions. Hopefully we can work out something reasonable to everyone quickly.
 
I agree. I think I will have Europe focus most on Miniaturization/Efficient/Sustainable technology.

Sorry, I'll try to post something concrete soon. I'm working on a lot of things right now.
 
Here are the plans NASA announced back in 2004 for future space projects:

Complete the International Space Station by 2010
Retire the Space Shuttle by 2010
Develop the Orion spacecraft (formerly known as the Crew Exploration Vehicle) by 2008, and conduct its first human spaceflight mission by 2014
Develop Shuttle-Derived Launch Vehicles
Explore the Moon with robotic spacecraft missions by 2008 and crewed missions by 2020
Explore Mars and other destinations with robotic and crewed missions
 
Well, faster is always better. Besides, a few years deviation will not matter much in the long run. Or, at least, I hope not. Since, supposedly, an interstellar space race will start in 2053...
 
Spoiler :
A Brief History of the American Space Program

2019

After several years of planning, the first manned mission to Mars is made by American astronauts. Rock samples and other tests were performed, although no colonization effort was even considered. Although America was the first nation to land on Mars, they would quickly fall behind for the other points in the new race to spread throughout space.

2027

American astronauts arrive on Venus, only six months after the European Union shuttle arrived. This landing, while for a long time deemed to dangerous, was finally able to be done thanks to new advances in heat protection, life support systems, and long range propulsion systems. Again no permanent colony is attempted. At this time the idea of building colonies on the Moon and Mars gain much popularity, and the government surprisingly allocates more money to the space program in order to keep up with the other competing nations.

2034

European physicists develop a way to perform the nuclear fission reactions in a very small space, very useful in the development of space travel. Space travel suddenly becomes much cheaper, and plans for a European, an American, and a Chinese space station begin to unfold.

2038

The European Union finishes their new space station, equipped with a fueling station, areas of land used for agriculture, and a lab for experiments.

2041

America finishes their own space station, the Pytheas Space Station. Very similar to the European space station, it also contains additional labs for the testing of animal behavior and development in low-gravity, along with a small fission reactor.

2051

The first Moon colonies are constructed by the European Union, soon to be followed by American and then Chinese colonies.
(Ok, I don't know a lot about space travel and such. How do these histories sound? And also, could the leaders of the European Union and China contribute some information about their space programs/accomplishments?
Symphony's criticism sound pretty solid, so I'll just encourage you to keep them in mind. :yup: Faster progress in some areas, slower in others. And thanks again for such detailed writeups - you're clearly being one of the important shaping factors in this Pre-NES. ;)
Oh, and Chand, do you plan on making maps for the new planets? I think it would be pretty important, especially for the ones close to Earth, such as Mars, Venus, the Moon, etc.
I don't intend to make maps of other planets, nor any graphics for the the structure of each system. I have a map of the systems in relation to each other, which should be all that's necessary. Considering the number of planets that will be in this game eventually, I think that even mapping the important planets would be prohibitively difficult.
Maybe we should take Symphony on as our tech advisor? Certainly seems to make sense to me, he obviously knows the most...
I believe that Symphony is already our de facto tech advisor. ;) Which I very much appreciate, of course, though I'm well aware that he's not doing it for my appreciation.
Fuschia said:
Spoiler :
Indonesia
Leader: Will add later (Fuschia)
Capital: Jakarta, Earth
Government: Presidential Republic
Technology: 2053 (Indonesia's poor economy has kept it rather far behind the world's super powers. It has also been very careful to maintain its biodiversity while continuing with modernizations. Because of this, it has a technology level slightly below average, although most areas of Indonesia have yet to see any benefits from advanced technology, the majority of it being centered on Java, Sumatra, and Borneo)
Army Stats: Indonesia's army is of average size for its population.
Army Description: Mostly infantry with a healthy dose of air and naval support. Quick transportation is their greatest asset, as it is essential to island combat; helicopters and small, quick boats are in large quantities to allow for easy transportation.
Navy Stats: This will need some work...
Navy Description: Indonesia started its space program, LAPAN, slightly after India began theirs, but have not advanced it very far, although they have landed a man on the moon and mars, as well as having sent probes to all of the planets within our Solar System, with the exception of Pluto, because its not a planet.
Total Economy: Economy is still based firmly in farming and small family run businesses. This is only different on the main islands, which have been heavily modernized, both in infrastructure and job availability.
Planets Occupied: Earth
Avg. Infrastructure: Poor
Control: High
Total Population: Somewhere near 500 million
Military Cap: No idea here...
Education: Good
Avg. Safety & Health: Good
Avg. Patriotism: High
Projects: I'll assume none, unless I come up with something
History: In 2008, the elections ousted the Golkar party and placed the PDI-P in fairly firm control of the government. Constitutional amendments in response to the actions of President Suharto continued to move forward as planned, passing without major incident. Years passed, and Indonesia continued closeness to the United States and grew further and further from China, who they blamed for many of their economic problems.
Indonesia consumed two of its neighbors, Malaysia and Brunei, in 2023 and 2047, respectively. A few complaints were lodged to the United Nations by some of Indonesia's neighbors(East Timor most vehemently), but the annexation went without many problems. Both nations were mostly Muslim, keeping Indonesia's vast Islamic majority.
Indonesia launched its space program in 2010, slightly after India launched its first probe to the moon. They quickly developed their own design of rocket, sending a man into space in 2012. Receiving a good deal of help from NASA and the United States, they landed a man on the moon in 2021, and had sent probes to every planet in the solar system by 2029. In 2040, they landed a man on mars, becoming the fifth nation in the world to do so. Although yet to develop a permanent or even semi-permanent base on the moon, plans continue to go ahead for the founding of one in 2058.


More a rough draft then anything else, the dates, especially, are very malleable. Feel free to suggest things, whether they be additions or subtractions. Hopefully we can work out something reasonable to everyone quickly.
Well, I don't see any glaring flaws, though my knowledge of the region is quite limited. Hopefully we'll be able to flesh all of the aspects out over the next couple of days.
I agree. I think I will have Europe focus most on Miniaturization/Efficient/Sustainable technology.

Sorry, I'll try to post something concrete soon. I'm working on a lot of things right now.
That's fine, it's becoming more clear to me that this initial turn is going to be somewhat longer to set up than the turns immediately after it.
 
Indonesia launched its space program in 2010, slightly after India launched its first probe to the moon.
Decloak: Nothing to something in 3 years strikes me as implausible given Indonesia's current technical disposition.

[quoteThey quickly developed their own design of rocket, sending a man into space in 2012.[/quote]
Also don't really buy this as without relevant flight data it'd be... dangerous, to say the least. All the powers that have been able to rapidly transition to manned flight have had long-term rocket programs prior to doing so--the big three (US, USSR, PRC) were able to leverage data from their strategic missile programs into exploratory programs. Indonesia won't have that luxury. Don't see it.

Receiving a good deal of help from NASA and the United States, they landed a man on the moon in 2021,
Don't see America working that closely to help another power onto the Moon a handful of years after it itself returns as anything but a junior partner under its own program, and then not without heavy monetary or manufacturing contributions. Getting to the Moon remains a huge logistical undertaking--if it takes America 10 years to regear for it from a near-Earth program, it will take Indonesia, starting from nothing, and with significantly fewer resources, industries, and technical skill in the field, quite a bit longer.

and had sent probes to every planet in the solar system by 2029.
Not possible simply due to transit time mandated by the gravity assists needed to economically reach the outer planets, assuming nothing spiffy like ion engines deployed, along with launch windows, design times...

Really Japan has better odds of doing these things. Indonesia wouldn't realistically have any sort of space presence until it puts its house in order on Earth. If it can do that, it might make a good late entry--it has good positioning for space elevators if it can stabilize its political climate.

Lord_Iggy said:
I agree. I think I will have Europe focus most on Miniaturization/Efficient/Sustainable technology.
I don't really see what there is for them to miniaturize given they're not big into electronics manufacture, which is the main field to benefit from miniaturization. Previously I would have said genetics, given American views on stem cell research, but given it's now possible to revert adult cells to stem cells, I doubt there will be any significant discrepancies between geographic areas. So your last two categories are probably more correct. Given France is housing ITER, the EU may acquire something of a fusion research lead, though the US has a sizable number of facilities dedicated to that.

Chandrasekhar said:
Which I very much appreciate, of course, though I'm well aware that he's not doing it for my appreciation.
It's more I would prefer not to see a decent idea go down in flames due to uninformed decisions, if possible.
 
Miniaturization is of benifit to many things however, such as micromachining. But perhaps Miniaturization will be one of the later things that Europe begins to specialize in. Anyway, I'm taking time off my update to write up some EU stuff.

@Swiss- Bolivar was Latino, not Black.
 
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