talonschild
Drive-By NESer
D'oh.
Pre-KhaNESII: S.P.Q.R
- Thread starter Grandkhan
- Start date
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Hannibal is long dead by this point in time. When you guys get to it I'll see about elephants. I don't know why you are so keen on them, by this point everybody knew how to deal with war elephants and they are a huge liability on the battlefield half the time.
talonschild
Drive-By NESer
Same reason as gladiators. So freaking cool.
SamSniped
DJ Goodboye
Because Civ4, where War Elephants with the Amphibious promotion should scare you when you see them 
Yes, I'm sure it will work well to use your slaves that want to kill you as your soldiers.
talonschild
Drive-By NESer
Hey, they're listed there. At any rate, well-treated slaves are often not particularly magistricidal.
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
A lot of gladiators weren't actually slaves. The professional gladiators (i.e., the ones you'd be recruiting into your army as your bodyguard) were volunteers.
Seon
Not An Evil Liar
In fact, it was less likely for a professional gladiator to die in battle than an average roman legionnaire was during his campaign.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
I would assume he means "in gladitorial combat/battle". Because a professional gladiator isn't that likely to fight in a "real" battle in the first place. I think Seon wants to emphasize that the dramatic "Kill or Spare" usually tends to spare over kill.
Or maybe he is saying that battle for battle, campaign for campaign, a professional gladiator, when they do war, die less often than the average roman legionnarie. In that case, they are better, somehow. I still think the above is the right reading.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Spoiler :
To Clarify.
Tribune of the Plebs is a NPC position. They serve for X seasons, X being the number of Tribunes. Each season, a new Tribune goes up for public election. This election can be affected by Senatorial funding (and campaigning). The funders win influence, and the highest funder wins Sponsorship, which gives their advise influence bonuses.
Each Tribune has 3 stats. They are Public, Loyalty, and Rhetoric. Public shows what share of a Tribune's loyalty is random/slanted popular. Loyalty shows the influence bonus a sponsor recieves at the expense of Public share. Rhetoric shows ability of a Tribune to convince his peers to not veto a law.
Here is an example.
Marcus Brutus
Public: 5
Loyalty: 10
Rhetoric: 1
Marcus Brutus would have 25% random public support. However, he is a very loyal person and so his true public outlook is 15%, giving 10% bonus to his sponsor's views. He is a very bad public speaker, and even when supporting a bill he only has a 1% (plustimesRNG?) influence on his colleague's decisions.
He was the 2nd best funded candidate, but won by luck. His top funder and sponsor spent 6 funds. His next sponsors spent 5, 3, 1.
15% of his support goes Public
40% of his support goes Sponsor. 6/15=40% of 75%=30%+10% Loyalty=40%
25% of his support goes Funder #2. 5/15=33% of 75%=25%
15% of his support goes funder #3. ect
5% of his support goes Funder #4.
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Thats a great model, and I like the amount of thought that you put into it, don't get me wrong.
But the concept for a group of NPCs who's only job is to go "No. Screw you." until you pay them just seems like bad game design.
Your main opponent to getting your bills passed should be other players. NESes are fundamentally co-operative games which are simultaneously competitive - you need to cooperate to compete, so to speak.
An NPC who's only job is to veto your actions until you throw enough money at them means that one of your main opponents becomes the game itself, which isn't really great game design from the perspective of multiplayer games.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
I guess. That is the main reason for Tribunes in real life as well.
In return, I made it REALLY hard for Veto to achieve majority. The natural tendency is abstain. Support automatically cancels out Veto, and it doesn't work the other way around. Tribunes convince each other to NOT veto on a consistent basis.
Make it clear that the Tribune of the Plebs will make things really annoying, and maybe some of the in character non-Populares will give a second thought about supporting that bill.
Their basic tone is "Meh, Whatever." Even anti-People legislation only has on average of 2 or 3 Tribune's Public Stats shifting to Veto, and that is easily covered by a single Support advice, or smothered by Abstains.
EDIT: If they get (near?) unanimous on the Tribunes thing, then you can always tweak this until it fits your vision.
Only Ekolite voted against so far, and I dunno if it is because of his character (which is very likely) or reaction to your "I dunno how to make Tribunes work, so nope" post.
EDITEDIT: On the balance. Just for clarification.
75% Veto, 25% Support becomes 50% Veto, 25% Abstain, 25% Support. No Majority, the Tribune Abstains. The Support turns the Vetos into Abstains.
Also, you can have a final filter that a successful Veto that passes through the pipes get a final RNG hurdle to pass. flip of the coin? A 6 on a d6? Up to you if you feel they are too strong.
In return, I made it REALLY hard for Veto to achieve majority. The natural tendency is abstain. Support automatically cancels out Veto, and it doesn't work the other way around. Tribunes convince each other to NOT veto on a consistent basis.
Make it clear that the Tribune of the Plebs will make things really annoying, and maybe some of the in character non-Populares will give a second thought about supporting that bill.
Their basic tone is "Meh, Whatever." Even anti-People legislation only has on average of 2 or 3 Tribune's Public Stats shifting to Veto, and that is easily covered by a single Support advice, or smothered by Abstains.
EDIT: If they get (near?) unanimous on the Tribunes thing, then you can always tweak this until it fits your vision.
Only Ekolite voted against so far, and I dunno if it is because of his character (which is very likely) or reaction to your "I dunno how to make Tribunes work, so nope" post.
EDITEDIT: On the balance. Just for clarification.
75% Veto, 25% Support becomes 50% Veto, 25% Abstain, 25% Support. No Majority, the Tribune Abstains. The Support turns the Vetos into Abstains.
Also, you can have a final filter that a successful Veto that passes through the pipes get a final RNG hurdle to pass. flip of the coin? A 6 on a d6? Up to you if you feel they are too strong.
erez87
Lord of Random
Tribunes could be a third party's chance at vetoing stuff..
DC123456789
Deity
I just want to say that I'll be on vacation for a week. I'll probably be able to continue doing everything as usual, but if I go quiet for a bit, you know why.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Willing to help work out game design until you get something you'd like.
Tribunes do have veto power IRL, but you still have the final say both on how much influence player/chance has to activate veto power as well as whether or not to allow a "system veto" to pass. You can probably change the Veto into a Revote or Revision-request or something if you fit it somehow. Also, a Consul or dictator "overruling" a Tribune's Veto because it has no "official" power (apparently it is due to being "Sacrosanct" representative of the plebs) can be an interesting instigation of a crisis and a trial.
EDIT: A player-tribune would be interesting. Veto power at exchange of other government positions.
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Okay, I've worked out how the Tribunes are going to work.
Tribunes are elected every two years (it happens during the orders phase, in the same turn as Consular elections and law votes. The Tribunes don't take up their positions until the following turn, however) by the Plebeian classes, i.e. they are NPCs. There are 5 Tribunes, and their only power is that they may call for Citizen Assemblies. These Citizen Assemblies are capable of vetoing a Bill in any given year, in which case no bill is published for this year. Tribunes will announce beforehand during the law phase if they are planning to call for a Citizen Assembly.
The catch is that these assemblies are very hard to call. Out of 5 Tribunes, 3 must call for one for an Assembly to occur. Even then, their success is not guaranteed. A note that a Tribune's natural tendency is antipathy - their instinctive reaction to most things to not veto, but occasionally they stand up for their rights if they find something particularly controversial.
They aren't going to veto a bill if something they really want isn't in there though, because that would just get inconvenient.
Tribunes are NPCs, and are incorrigible and cannot be bribed once they are in power, though the Factions (see below) can. Their positions are determined by which Faction they stand for. OOCly, The Senate can void the Tribunes powers by Bill - so if they stand against something the Senate wants, they can remove their powers, pass what they want, and give it back if they want - but this may have repercussions. IC, Tribunes are given their powers by law, and taking them away is a very, very big deal.
Tribunes will not negotiate, but they can be assassinated.
Tribune Elections and Parties
Tribunes are elected from a set of five factions, shamelessly lifted from Europa Universalis: Rome. Tribunes are also divided into Hardliners, Moderates, or Pragmatists - Hardliners are extremely likely to veto controversial bills, Moderates will veto if its too bad, and Pragmatists will only veto if its absolutely terrible. (So, Militarists might not all veto a bill which surrenders to an enemy if its clear Rome is losing, they'll just complain about it).
Militarists: The Militarist Faction are the party dedicated to expanding Roman glory and power, by force of arms. They are against decreases in military spending and surrender. They are naturally quite conservative.
Religious: The Religious Faction is dedicated to maintaining the special place of Religion in Roman society. They are opposed to bills that remove this place, or delegitimise religion in some way. They are also naturally conservative, though representatives of the cults of more popular gods may be less inclined to conservatism.
Optimates: The Optimate Faction is dedicated to the Patrician classes of Rome. They are opposed to bills that increase Plebeian rights or remove Patrician rights. They are naturally very conservative.
Mercantilists: The Mercantile Faction is dedicated to the merchants of Rome. They are opposed to bills that limit the freedom of trade or place burdens on trade between provinces or nations. They are naturally quite liberal and in favour of greater freedoms for Roman citizens, and are sometimes against war.
Populares: The Popular Faction is dedicated to the plebeians of Rome, if only for their own devices and ambitions. They are opposed to bills that limit the freedom or rights of the Plebeians of Rome. Populares are the Faction most likely to veto legislation, and are naturally extremely liberal.
Voting for tribunes occurs by RNG. Voting can be influenced by Senators by giving money to the Faction which they favour. You may negotiate with the Factions, e.g. "I will fund the Mercantilists if they agree not to veto a Bill which reduces the Grain Dole" but they will stick to their guns and refuse to do something which compromises their integrity. However, if they make a deal with a Senator, the Faction will stand by it.
This is how Tribunes will work, I think. If anybody can see any particular problem, please say something, though I quite like the system and I didn't want it to be some kind of 'Throw Money at Them Until They Go Away' type deal.
Tribunes are elected every two years (it happens during the orders phase, in the same turn as Consular elections and law votes. The Tribunes don't take up their positions until the following turn, however) by the Plebeian classes, i.e. they are NPCs. There are 5 Tribunes, and their only power is that they may call for Citizen Assemblies. These Citizen Assemblies are capable of vetoing a Bill in any given year, in which case no bill is published for this year. Tribunes will announce beforehand during the law phase if they are planning to call for a Citizen Assembly.
The catch is that these assemblies are very hard to call. Out of 5 Tribunes, 3 must call for one for an Assembly to occur. Even then, their success is not guaranteed. A note that a Tribune's natural tendency is antipathy - their instinctive reaction to most things to not veto, but occasionally they stand up for their rights if they find something particularly controversial.
They aren't going to veto a bill if something they really want isn't in there though, because that would just get inconvenient.
Tribunes are NPCs, and are incorrigible and cannot be bribed once they are in power, though the Factions (see below) can. Their positions are determined by which Faction they stand for. OOCly, The Senate can void the Tribunes powers by Bill - so if they stand against something the Senate wants, they can remove their powers, pass what they want, and give it back if they want - but this may have repercussions. IC, Tribunes are given their powers by law, and taking them away is a very, very big deal.
Tribunes will not negotiate, but they can be assassinated.
Tribune Elections and Parties
Tribunes are elected from a set of five factions, shamelessly lifted from Europa Universalis: Rome. Tribunes are also divided into Hardliners, Moderates, or Pragmatists - Hardliners are extremely likely to veto controversial bills, Moderates will veto if its too bad, and Pragmatists will only veto if its absolutely terrible. (So, Militarists might not all veto a bill which surrenders to an enemy if its clear Rome is losing, they'll just complain about it).
Militarists: The Militarist Faction are the party dedicated to expanding Roman glory and power, by force of arms. They are against decreases in military spending and surrender. They are naturally quite conservative.
Religious: The Religious Faction is dedicated to maintaining the special place of Religion in Roman society. They are opposed to bills that remove this place, or delegitimise religion in some way. They are also naturally conservative, though representatives of the cults of more popular gods may be less inclined to conservatism.
Optimates: The Optimate Faction is dedicated to the Patrician classes of Rome. They are opposed to bills that increase Plebeian rights or remove Patrician rights. They are naturally very conservative.
Mercantilists: The Mercantile Faction is dedicated to the merchants of Rome. They are opposed to bills that limit the freedom of trade or place burdens on trade between provinces or nations. They are naturally quite liberal and in favour of greater freedoms for Roman citizens, and are sometimes against war.
Populares: The Popular Faction is dedicated to the plebeians of Rome, if only for their own devices and ambitions. They are opposed to bills that limit the freedom or rights of the Plebeians of Rome. Populares are the Faction most likely to veto legislation, and are naturally extremely liberal.
Voting for tribunes occurs by RNG. Voting can be influenced by Senators by giving money to the Faction which they favour. You may negotiate with the Factions, e.g. "I will fund the Mercantilists if they agree not to veto a Bill which reduces the Grain Dole" but they will stick to their guns and refuse to do something which compromises their integrity. However, if they make a deal with a Senator, the Faction will stand by it.
This is how Tribunes will work, I think. If anybody can see any particular problem, please say something, though I quite like the system and I didn't want it to be some kind of 'Throw Money at Them Until They Go Away' type deal.
erez87
Lord of Random
Cool - thou a little annoying that there are 3 conservative and only 2 liberal factions
You have time to work on them thou, until they pass in a bill I won't force them upon Rome. Maybe next game year
You have time to work on them thou, until they pass in a bill I won't force them upon Rome. Maybe next game year
bonefang
Emperor
OOC : I hope these tribunes can be influenced as well ??
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Only once ever two years, when you must negotiate with the Faction itself.
As I said above, the Tribunes themselves are incorrigable and stick to their guns no matter what. The Faction, however, is not and can be negotiated with.
Bear in mind that your funding is basically the single determinant of Tribune elections, so their desperate to have it.
erez87
Lord of Random
Btw about the army - shouldn't it's be decided by roman population ages 16-30 rather than buying legionaries?
For example agrarian changes that create more men with enough economy to buy weapons should increase the army numbers, no?
Or by this era all legionnaires are paid employees?
For example agrarian changes that create more men with enough economy to buy weapons should increase the army numbers, no?
Or by this era all legionnaires are paid employees?
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