Preaching Atheism
- Thread starter Ziggy Stardust
- Start date
Quoted directly from the atheist bible i suppose? Or was it handed down by the atheist council?
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Winner
Diverse in Unity
That's how the believers would like the atheists to be, huh?
You forgot to mention they should also shut up and never openly criticize religion.It's not fine with me that so many people choose to live (or are brainwashed from infancy) according to false beliefs. It's sad, actually. The fact I can do very little about it doesn't mean I am fine with it.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
So you doubt everything you already did not believe. Which is fine. But if you don;t take a serious look at the case being made for each and every one of those, and reject them outright, that is not doubt. Doubt is not being sure, and you sound very sure that everything you named there is not happening. You even doubt the possibility of a universe came into existence through a naturalistic, unintelligent process.
That is rejection. Not doubt. When you doubt you clear your prejudices and look at the case in favour and against with an open mind. This is one of the hardest things to do for us. Really taking another look at it without preconceived notions interfering with your judgement. It's very hard, but we should at least always try. I get the feeling you didn't actually try to have an open mind about all those things you listed. For instance: "I doubt that there is a better explanation for the facts of the empty tomb of Jesus and his post-mortem appearances than that God raised Jesus from the dead."
Ok let me make one up which doesn't need the unprecedented resurrection. The Romans moved him and his followers mystified the story. Why is this less likely than resurrection? Have you considered this option?
The point of this thread is to doubt those things you do believe and are convinced of. Asking yourself the really hard questions. Like this:
You sound so sure. Don't you also doubt this?The gospel is the good news about the purpose and plan of God for humankind. It is not about Christ per se, but about the Kingdom of God: "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:14-15).
1. God exists and is a divine family of beings that created and now governs the universe (the "Kingdom of God").
2. Humans were created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) for the purpose of becoming a part of this divine family and partaking in the governance of the universe. ("entering the Kingdom of God").
3. Although humans rebelled against God and rejected the rule of His Kingdom on this earth, accepting human and demonic rulers instead, God has been working with selected individuals and groups on this earth (the "elect," "firstfruits") to ultimately overthrow the current worldly forms of government and reestablish His Kingdom on the earth.
4. A member of the Godhead, Jesus, appeared as a human to reconcile humans to God and His Kingdom, by living a perfect life, dying, and overcoming death through His resurrection; qualifying as the first human to be reborn as a glorified divine being and the ruler of the Kingdom, and allowing those whom God calls and who trust in Him to follow in the way He manifested and likewise overcome death, be reborn into glory, and enter the Kingdom of God as rulers ("For whom [God] did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren," Romans 8:29).
5. Jesus will return to the earth again, to finally and definitively remove all human and and demonic governments and establish the Kingdom of God on the earth, ruled by Jesus and those, now resurrected, who served him in this life ("And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever," Daniel 2:44; "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Matthew 25:34). Evil, injustice, and suffering will be abolished (Isaiah 11:1-9).
6. All humans who ever lived will be resurrected, God will reveal Himself, making plain the gospel and His way of life to them, and they will be given a chance to enter this Kingdom, based on the how they live in response to this revelation ("And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more," Jeremiah 31:34; "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works," Revelation 20:12-13).
7. Those who, with full revelation of God, still reject Him, will be annihilated in the Lake of Fire ("Hell, the "second death"; "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," John 3:36). The rest will live forever, absent evil and suffering, ruling the New Heavens and Earth in loving fellowship with God and each other (Revelation 20:14-15;21-22).
The purpose of evangelism is not specifically to convert others; this is God's job, although He often uses evangelism to accomplish it. Everyone will receive a revelation by God and a chance at salvation when He deems it the appropriate time ("No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me," John 6:44-45). Rather it is to "preach the gospel for a witness" (Matthew 24:14). Think of a witness in court, whose responsibility is to just to tell the truth, regardless of whether anyone beliefs him (though, naturally, he will want people to believe him). It's like the parable of the sower: he scatters the seeds and doesn't worry about where they fall; some grow, some don't. Such is the evangelist, as long as he's proclaimed the gospel, he's done his job, and conversion is up to God. So there you go, there's your sermon for the day, no need to go to church tomorrow (as I'm sure you all were faithfully planning on doing).
Because if not my friend, this would be an example of your believes not being based on doubt.
Ok. Let me be clear:
THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE EVOLUTION/CREATIONIST DEBATE
For the religious, I asked specific questions in the OP. Please, if you are going to participate, at least be so kind to address those.
I perfected your joke.
To you as well, I had a specific question in the OP.
Why is it being ignored and is everyone travelling the same old discussion route laid out in many threads already.
My friend - Abiogenesis (which don't suck at all and has pretty strong arguments that no science need to "back away" from it) deal with how brute matter may have randomly interacted to create simple forms of life in a favorable (liquid, dense and full of energy) environment like primordial earth.
It has nothing to do with complex forms of life turning up later, but with simplistic forms of life first appearing.
Evolution starts from after when abiogenesis (or any other form of genesis; hell, even freaking creation) have already ended it's contribution and a form of life already exists to be subject to environmental pressure and competition.
It has nothing to do with simplistic forms of life first appearing, but with complex forms of life turning up later.
Ergo, what you are saying is akin to suggesting that my swordfighting technique sucks because I got my piece from a lousy blacksmith.
So try to understand: any form of genesis, and abiogenesis as well, is previous and independent from evolution, just like using a sword in meleés has nothing to do with it being made by a good or bad blacksmith, or even being handed by the Lady of the Lake to the King of all Brittain.
Regards
.
Cheetah
Deity
That was much like Bill O'Reilly really: 30% funny, 30% crazy and 30% stupid.
Well, at least according to Beloved Warrior's post in this thread, unbelievers can wait for definite proof before having to make the decision of whether to go to Heaven or Hell.
Which one of your's belief do you think is correct?
You're a swashbuckler?
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Poor communication on my part, then; I meant that the universe is expanding outwards from the same point, not that it was necessarily all contained within that point. The "point" to which I referred was intended to be the centre of whatever existed before the expansion began, not necessarily the singularity entertained by Big Bang Theory.
It was revealed directly to Atheist Moses by Atheist Yahweh, who appeared to him in the form of a Bunsen burner.
Lillefix
I'm serious. You can.
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2003
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Actually there used to be hundreds of different doctrines. All very different. The reason this one is handed down and not the others is a mixture of sheer luck and because it was more accessible than most of the others.
Hmmmm... I wrote the same thing. It basically has nothing to do with life as we know it today.
Snorrius
Librivorator
Just give me a God and we will be done with it.
Cheetah
Deity
Okay, now I just got to ask: Do you actually practice Bujinkan/Ninjutsu (I did, thinking of starting again, seeing as now I'm in Japan and all), or was that just to up my 'swashbuckler' question?Please! A Ninja!
Regards
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
I think he practices law.
That's not doubt. That's a determination to disbelieve.
What you want to do is have a positive question like, to pic from the top of your list "How did the universe evolve into the state it's in today?" Then some figure of authority gives you an answer. DOUBT IT! here you'll get two answers, one from science and one from your preacher. Doubt both. Ask your preacher to understand why he says what says. And study science to understand it's methods, and the specific evidence behind in the cosmological and geological evolution of the world around us. Once you understand, and only once you understand, then you have to decide the limits of the scientific method and the bible both. Decide, but keep skeptical, for now you know the limits of the approach and evidence.
There's a really important step there: if you don't agree with someone, then you have to understand why they think so before you can confidently dismiss them. I think a lot of people could stand to learn this.
Cheetah
Deity
That's just his occupation/day-time job!
It is unnecessary and perhaps counterproductive to preach atheism. Sometimes an oblique approach is better. Improve education and access to it, along with a stable country that provides for many of the needs of the people. Basically, Swedenization. Atheism or at the very least non-religiousness will follow.
... an oblique approach for theism is the exact opposite vis a vis above.
... an oblique approach for theism is the exact opposite vis a vis above.
Beloved Warrior
Chieftain
However, I have seriously considered and continue to consider the cases that are made for these things, and I still doubt. Also, I have what seem to me to be good reasons to believe the things I do. I have reasons to doubt and reasons to believe, just like you or anyone else does. I doubt the things that I believe in the sense that I scrutinize them, but they have stood up to scrutiny for me so far. Skepticism is reasonable up to a point, but at some point, doubt becomes unreasonable, and even unlivable. Where should my doubt end? Should I doubt the existence of the external world, the existence of other minds, the existence of the past, the truth of the mathematical statement 1+1=2, the logical law of non-contradiction, the reliability of my own senses and rational faculties, and even my own existence? If I have good reasons to believe these things and I have good reasons to believe God exists, why should I seriously doubt it?
I have considered this, and off the top of my head, it fails to explain a couple of things:
1. If the Romans moved the body, they knew where it was, and could have put a stop to this whole resurrection nonsense right away, by simply producing the body. Why didn't they?
2. It doesn't explain the post-mortem appearances, or the conversion of others to belief in the resurrection, or the belief in the resurrection itself. The post-mortem appearances occurred to large groups of people all at once, as well as to people who had unfavorable attitudes toward Jesus. Hallucinatory experiences would not have produced belief in resurrection from the dead, perhaps they would have caused them to believe they were having a vision of Jesus in the afterlife, but this is different than Jesus being bodily resurrected. After all, the disciples had a vision of Moses and Elijah, and it didn't cause them to believe either of them were risen from the dead.
Also I have other reasons for believing in Jesus's teachings and the existence of God, both of which increase the probability of the resurrection occurring.
This shouldn't turn into a debate about the resurrection of Jesus, but I have reasons for believing that satisfy me, that are stronger than those for believing something else, which is all that matters.
I do think that people should question their beliefs. And yet I do question them (and will continue to) and I remain quite convinced. What now? What am I doing "wrong" that causes me to believe these ridiculous and nonsensical things?
A couple things about doubt and atheism:
I shouldn't have said my beliefs are based on doubt. Rather I should have said that all my beliefs entail doubt. If I believe x, it entails that I doubt -x. Belief cannot be established upon doubt. The only kind of view that can be established on doubt is an agnostic view, namely, "I don't know whether or not God exists." Doubt does not establish the belief that "God does not exist," which is a claim to knowledge about a particular state of affairs, just like the claim "God does exist." Neither of these claims can be firmly established upon doubt. Thus, going around telling people to doubt the existence of God will only lead them to uncertainty about God's existence, not to the belief that God does not exist. Do you advocate that people that believe that God does not exist should doubt this belief, just as those who believe God exists should doubt their belief?
I advocate questioning of all beliefs, but this is not the same as doubt. I can question my beliefs by wondering what good reasons there are to believe them and still not doubt them. Questioning beliefs can lead to doubt or it can lead to believing something more strongly.
Where we differ is in that abiogenesis is somehow a "weak" scientific theory, and also that it is something "inherently connected to evolution, but that it tries to distance itself from".
Regards
.
