President Abe (Us, not Japan)

If I understand the Amendment correctly, the 'Right to Bear Arms' is actually meant in the context of a Citizen's Militia. I believe the fear at the time was that a dictator or foreign invader (read: Great Britain) could easily usurp power in the US unless the people themselves were adequately armed & trained to defend against it. Of course, vested interests have blurred the distinction to turn it into a simple: you're an American, so you ought to own a gun.

Aussie_Lurker.
 
Probably. I am Canadian so am somewhat against handguns, long guns are a little different, but I do not own one myself.

Jperkinson: The only reason I am not going to counterquote your post replying to me is this. I am too lazy. :p I will say this though, again, a lot of what you say I agree with. Stuff about the government making us have many of these permits, especially building stuff for yourself or not being able to cut trees of your own land without a permit.
I know someone who's friends are engineers, and helped him plan their home, and it was better than the "code" yet the Building inspectors would not let them build it as they did not understand it, crazy huh?
And maybe also why I do not want total freedom is part of the Canadian in me, we have always been a little more ready to submit to the government than you guys (Hey we never had a mass revolution). Whether that is good or bad, I like it better. But it might be just me, and lately I see a disturbing trend towards too much personal freedom.

But I think if I say too much more it will help lead to a very offtopic conversation..
 
I don't see how you can argue from the Second Ammendment, which was written when a musket could hit its target about 5% of the time at a rate of 20 seconds per shot... Saying the Founding Fathers would unilaterally support gun proliferation today is an ignorant statement at best. The height of modern technology when the Bill of Rights was written was Benjamin Franklin's lightning rod. They could not conceive of a weapon that could fire more than five shots in a minute, let alone the rates of fire that some civilian weapons can achieve.

The intent of the second amendment had ZERO to do with the present state power of a firearm.

The right to bear arms is not simply the "everyone can have a gun" amendment. Are you honestly suggesting that we should be allowed to give guns to absolutely everyone? Children should get em? If the government prevents it, they're encroaching on your rights, correct? People should be able to own automatic weapons en masse without regulations? People fresh out of prison should be able to buy some nice machine guns and assault rifles from the local gun store? The right to bear arms does not precede the most important job of the government, to protect its people.

My son is 6 years old and handles a pistol better than most adults I know. Contrary to what some people would have you think, a deregulated world full of guns is an extremely polite world.

And yes, all of the above should be allowed. An armed populace is the BEST way to protect the people.

If I understand the Amendment correctly, the 'Right to Bear Arms' is actually meant in the context of a Citizen's Militia. I believe the fear at the time was that a dictator or foreign invader (read: Great Britain) could easily usurp power in the US unless the people themselves were adequately armed & trained to defend against it. Of course, vested interests have blurred the distinction to turn it into a simple: you're an American, so you ought to own a gun.

The Amendment had very little to do with foreign invaders.

The second amendment is what ensures that the American people will ALWAYS have the power over a tyrannical government. It was the anti-federalists exit strategy.


But- not to fall too far off target..... I still think that Lincoln shouldn't be included. Washington, yes. FDR was a pinko-commie. I would have like to seen Jefferson.
 
Maybe we should breathe some new life into this thread by discussing how best to use Abraham Lincoln now that we've got him!

We've got a leader here with two very complimentary traits - philosophical and charismatic. Charismatic helps with raising the happiness bar in your cities, as well as giving earlier upgrades to troops. Philosophical doubles great person points. I would argue that Lincoln's at his best while running a specialist-heavy strategy due to being Philosophical, which is aided by Charismatic raising the happiness ceiling. Further, specialist economies tend to do well in wars, and Charismatic makes warring even better. I'd argue Lincoln is probably the best war-capable specialist economy leader available. Discuss.
 
I still want Calvin Coolidge or Ron Paul to be options for America's leaders, guess I'll have to mod it.
 
that my friend, is absolutely laughable. the idea that one man can be solely responsible for one huge country and another continent is ridiculous.

Explain to me how Washington is responsible for Europe existing as it does today?

I wonder how so too, given that US was not the first country to become democratic in mankind's history, nor the first democracy of its time.
As usual, some more usual US propaganda.

And as per libertarian rights & constitutional rights of the individual- thats a rather laughable claim, since in the US only the whites had any rights. Europe went the civilized way ( of abolishing slavery) before US did for most part and if we are to only consider 'constitutional rights of the individual' only for one section of the society (white people in US), i don't see why it rules out Europe or Asia either, given that nobility in most countries around that time ( 1700s/1800s) also had many 'constitutional rights'.

IMO, US doesn't qualify as a democracy till civil war because of its hypocrasy with slavery.
But yeah, IMO, Abe Lincoln was the greatest US president of all, not only because he was far more civilized for his time than Washington, but because he held the north together very well in face of a richer confederate 'nation' during civil war.

And lastly, as per 'winning WWII' comment, US was largely a small fish in the European sector. Soviet Russia gets 90% of the credit for beating Germany and the US gets 90% of the credit for beating Japan.
One part of WWII history that is often overlooked in the US is that it forced Japan's hand to go into war with the US- Japan was deadlocked fighting in China at that time and US was its only oil supplier. US cut off oil deal with Japan while Japan was still busy China, effectively severing its lifeline- Japan was forced to do a Pearl harbour and expand into South-East Asia looking for oil ( vietnam provided a good substitute) to secure enough oil + built up its military in the window of opportunity that post-Pearl Harbour rebuilding delay presented. However, the British & ANZAC harried the Japanese enough and America won the last-ditch-to-stay-competetive-in-pacific critical fight at Midway and won, thus effectively making Japan's 'rock and a hard place' even worse.

But as far as Europe goes, its 90% Russia/Soviet Union. Not only was the eastern front active for longer than western front in terms of actual fighting ( after Germany took over France, western front died till D-day- little or no combat except for air raids to britain, even then most of Luftwaffe already transferred east, along with German infantry divisions), it was also three times larger at any given time.
The bloodiest, biggest and most gruelling fights were along the Eastern front. Plus Germany didn't try its damnest to stop the American-British onslaught after Operation Cobra. They realized that the war was lost at that point(because by August 1944, the Red Army had already crossed the Vistula in massive drive and were bearing down on Berlin) and it is a commonly acknowledged fact in history circles that Nazi Germany had virulent hatred for Communists ( categorically proven in their virulently hateful anti-Jew and anti-Commie propaganda in the 1920s/30s) and would've much rather fallen to the British than the Communists. Partly because German attrocities in Russia was far worse than German attrocities in western Europe and it was genuinely afraid of total annihilation at the hand of soviet union.
Which is why the Sigfried Line was hardly defended by the Germans and after they lost Operation Cobra, they transferred huge amounts of their mechanized infantry and SS to the eastern front, to put far more effort in the western front.

So all in all, WWII in a nutshell :
Germany + Italy(largely a non-factor/burden) : Got a few boats sunk by US-UK, got beaten mostly by USSR with medium (by WWII standards) fighting on the western front.
Japan : Got defeated by ANZAC and USA, with US getting 90% of the credit.


Hitler = moron to attack Russia. Moron for several reasons, primarily because he couldnt stick to letting his Generals run the war and keep himself to giving amazingly stirring speeches that captivated his audience.

Stalin = ultimate defender (though a bit of an idiot for killing off most of his officers before Germany started Operation Barbarossa).

US = opportunistic in war/trying to preserve Anglosphere's hegemony

UK = dying world power ( WWI took out a lot, plus India, the prime source of british world power in victorian/WWI power started drying up financially thanks to Gandhi's agitations) who lived because of its naval superiority and Hitler's fatal mistake of letting hundreds of thousands of British soldiers escape at Dunkirk.(As i said, Hitler = moron)

Italy = good industrial power at first, utterly incompetent army, more of a burden to Germany than an ally after the initial stages.

France = Idiot for not extending Maginot line along the Belgian border. Had they done that, they'd have actually put up a fight instead of gifting the Maginot line to Germany.

Japan = expanding into China, America snags its power, forced into high risk battle strategy with Americans, loses out. The Burma Road idea of the Brits hurt them incredibly.
 
As far as USA winning the war is concerned, Staling said at Potsdam somehting like "cheers to american production, without which we would have lost the war".

Also the biggest mistake Hitler made during the war was honoring his treaty with Japan and a declaring war on America. That "pinko" Roosevelt was the only man in power pushing for a war with Germany, and the republican isolationists would have never agreed to a war with Germany while at the same time fighting Japan, who had just treacherously bombed Pearl Harbor. The entire year Roosevelt had been defying Congress, enacting new provocations for Hitler and having him turn the other cheek each time, because Hitler knew he could not win if the United States joined the fight.

f we had a republican president during that era, or a weaker one, there is a good chance we would currently be a distant second superpower in fear of a German super state across the Atlantic.
 
Side note #1: The t-34 was vastly inferior to the german technology. There were just a horsehockyload of them.

Side note #2: There are now like 8 discussions going on in this thread. :D
 
Hmm... you might not see him that way if you were Irish and he had sent gunboats up the Liffey to shell the uprising... or if you were Iraqi. I'm paraphrasing here, but I read a quote from him once about "seeing no reason not to use poison gas on tribes of 'ni@@ers in Iraq"...

what were the Brit casualties in WW2? Was it close to 28m? Or was it about 600,000? Where did most German soldiers die? the Eastern front? Or in Normandy? some people cannot accept an army or natkion they were brought up to percieve as the enemy might have been a bigger contributor to WW2, even when you can pull out the statistics to prove it. Sad really

Stalin and the Russians didn't win the war, Hitler lost it. He delayed Operation Barbarossa for several weeks to put down an uprising somewhere that he saw as a personal threat. Had he ignored the uprising and went right into Russia, German tanks wouldn't have been stopped in the snow 20 miles from Moscow. Hitler only needed an extra two weeks. As far as how many Russians were killed, that's more to do with the fact Stalin ruthlessly threw many of his countrymen to certain death than anything else.
 
The second amendment is what ensures that the American people will ALWAYS have the power over a tyrannical government.

Guns don't keep away a tyrannical govt. in a democracy, social understanding/societerial nature does.
You really think that if the American constitutional system failed, your precious guns will protect you from a despot in charge of American military, looking to ruthlessly crush opposition ?
That is laughable really and speaks either of how much the Americans overrate themselves with guns or how much they underrate their own military and its logistical power.
War is not child's play and insurgents in Afghanistan/Iraq etc. are insanely more trained and experienced than American public is. American public vs American army would end up as a massacre really- even with guerilla warfare, it would take 20:1 numerical odds or so for a US citizen to take down its own soldier.
Battle tactics is a major part of modern warfare. US Army has one of the most advanced battle tactics on this planet, US public has really no clue (like most other public) about battle tactics. Whopee.
In reality, that your guns protect your individual right of freedom from despotism is really a nice soundbyte without much thought put behind it.

Even if you are a regular to the range and a decent shot(which is bloody hard to be, mind you), i'd give you 1 in 4 chance of survival against a US soldier in best of conditions. And if you just happened to go buy a gun out of the gun store to 'stop the despotic US army opressing its own people', yo wouldn't hit a man before you were dead.

It is interesting that several nations have not had a problem with tyrannical governments in their history of existence without being a 'gun-in-every-other-house' type of society.
The Scandinavian nations, India, Canada, etc. stand as testament to that fact.
But i suppose America needs its propaganda about pro-gun status. It is afterall America's biggest industry ( in terms of GDP earned) and America is a capitalist nation- so it makes diabolical sense that a capitalist nation will have very good cultural focus on projecting the 'you need a gun!' mentality.
 
Since we're on the subject, Lincoln never freed the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation did free the slaves in the South, but he also gave the union army instructions not to free any slaves they came across. After the war, he had planned to forcibly send all slaves back to Africa. The Proclamation was more to either try to incite a slave rebellion and to make it harder for European countries to lend help to the Confederacy by making the war into a war about slaves (when it had previously been about states rights).
 
Staling said at Potsdam somehting like "cheers to american production, without which we would have lost the war".

It was welcome and did help out Russia in some situations- but by the time German navy and its U-boat dominance of the Atlantic & North Sea was broken, Russia was already turning the tide in the eastern sector.
Without American supplies, Russian advance would've been slower but still unstoppable eventually given the advantage they weilded.
I hope you guys realize that Germany sent its elite units in to Russia that got annihilated eventually. The amount of SS they lost in the east was insane and thats what made the difference, really. Ofcourse, Russia bore horrific losses but if there is one thing constant in the Russian history since Tsar Peter, its that they have an amazing capacity to resist even at the most horrific of costs.
 
And to go back on-topic, I agree with Lincoln being returned to the game. He wasn't perfect (who is) but he accomplished great things. Two quotes that always go together in my mind:

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." - Abraham Lincoln

"And here it should be noted that hatred is acquired as much by good works as by bad ones, therefore, as I said before, a prince wishing to keep his state is very often forced to do evil.." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Hi sansloi37, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with your quotes. Clearly you are emphasizing that Lincoln's priority during the civil war was to maintain the union and then you have a quote from Machiavelli about leaders required to do evil. A lot of Americans think of Lincoln as the President who freed the slaves and it seems to me that you quoted him hear because you wanted to point out that that was not his main goal during the civil war. Is that the point you are trying to make?


If that is your argument then I strongly disagree and I think your quote of Lincoln needs to put in context. Yes Lincoln's main concern was always the preservation of the United States as one country however he felt that the US could never remain one country while slavery existed. He never wanted a destructive civil war. When he first ran for President his intent was to bring about the end of slavery gradually over a long drawn out period so as to avoid a destructive civil war. Also his feelings about slavery ( as well as the feelings of Americans in general ) changed quite a bit as the civil war progressed. So I think this quote is more reflective of Lincoln's beliefs at the beginning of the war and not necessary his beliefs later, for example, when he issued the Emancipation Proclamation.

I think what made Lincoln one of the best American Presidents was his humility and his ability to truly lead. As a politician it is never really effective to be opposed to the majority will of the people. Lincoln learned that from his term as a congressman opposing the Mexican-American war which was very popular. What a true political leader does is learn to read that will and to push it in the right direction, to persuade the population that your ideas and goals are the right ones. Lincoln did that most noticeably with slavery. He helped Americans realize that slavery is fundamentally wrong and is a direct contradiction of the constitution and the freedom that the constitution guarantees.



P.S. If you haven't read the new biography of Lincoln called "Team of Rivals" by Doris Kearns Goodwin it is wonderful and I highly recommend it.
 
Since we're on the subject, Lincoln never freed the slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation did free the slaves in the South, but he also gave the union army instructions not to free any slaves they came across. After the war, he had planned to forcibly send all slaves back to Africa. The Proclamation was more to either try to incite a slave rebellion and to make it harder for European countries to lend help to the Confederacy by making the war into a war about slaves (when it had previously been about states rights).

Err, part of that didn't make any sense. Lincoln didn't have to 'make it harder' for European countries to help the confederates.
Britain was already doing it for them. In mid 1800s, Britain was the undisputed emperor of the seas- by so much so that it isn't funny. And Britain had outlawed slavery by 1810-1820 or so and that is what made it impossible to win the civil war eventually. While the confederates were richer, Britain was highly successful in blocking European assitance to the confederates, thus making their money count for little.

But regardless, i think Abe Lincoln was simply a much better man than he gets credit for in compared to George Washington. True, he is a freedom hero but AFAIAK, guy with bigger social impact was Lincoln.
 
Lincoln did that most noticeably with slavery. He helped Americans realize that slavery is fundamentally wrong and is a direct contradiction of the constitution and the freedom that the constitution guarantees.

Spot on. Hence from Lincoln onwards, America went from being the biggest hypocrite to being atleast consistent in its most basic constitutional rights.
And until civil rights movement, America was basically a couple of steps away from being Nazi Germany and became one of the more decent nations on this planet ( still middle tier-ish IMO).
 
f we had a republican president during that era, or a weaker one, there is a good chance we would currently be a distant second superpower in fear of a German super state across the Atlantic.

Nah. By the time America had entered the war, Germany had already made its 'cataclysmic mistake' of invading Soviet Union. Germans were the outright winners of the war till June 22nd, 1941. Then Germany pressed the 'I die' button.
America factors in later and even then at a much much lesser scale from German perspective.
Either way, Germany would've been beaten with or without America's help ( though if America had joined hands with Germany, they'd definitely have won).
 
As for Lincoln, he was the type of President that either you loved, or flat out hated, and the numbers were closer to 50/50 then most are willing to admit. The only reason he was nominated for President in the first place was because the convention was held in Chicago, where his campaign manager packed the place with observers who shouted his name over and over.

But what did Lincoln do? He did end slavery, a task he had no intenting of doing when he entered office. Since in order to end slavery he originally needed the states to pass an ammendment, which would of required a greater number of free states. Which is what he goal was as president, to end the expansion of slavery into new and future states. So that sometime in the future, well after his own term as president, there would be enough support to pass such an ammendment (which most likely would of tiggered a civil war if one had not happened before hand).

Lincoln didn't win the nomination by luck as you make it out to be. He used a lot of political savy and outwitted his supposed superiors to grab the nomination from not one, not two, not three, but four other contenders that initially people thought had a better chance to win the nomination than him. He was the one who got the convention in Chicago on his home turf because he knew it would help him. He went to the east coast and New England and campaigned there before the convention and convinced many doubters with his great oratory that he wasn't just a dumb country-boy.

I find it strange that you don't give him any credit for WINNING the civil war. When the war started the North didn't even have a Navy. It didn't exist! His Secretary of the Navy built the U.S. Navy almost from scratch. Not just ships but the actual military command structure. Lincoln was also instrumental in passing legislature that lead to the development of the west, such as the Homestead Act and other legislation that built badly needed infrastructure . His Secretary of the Treasury developed some of our most basic financial instruments that the government has today such as paper currency and a national banking system. It kept the North on solid financial grounding to build the ships and guns to win the war. This is just the tip of the iceberg of some of Lincoln's accomplishments . . .
 
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