Prince Shadow Game

[sampsa]

You aren't working the mine in your screenshot(s). I tend to keep the governor on and interfere only when I see it doing something dumb like not working a cottage.

 

[OldDude]

OK, I went back to T17 and replayed. I'm now on T65. I have 4 cities. Shaka did not get that spot. I can see now that it was a mistake to mine that hill when I did, not that I doubted it but it's good to see the difference. The trick of switching your builds to maximize chops is good, I've got to remember that! I've teched AH Writing, Hunting, and currently teching HBR as I do have horses. No metals so I have to get those Horse Archers going. So should I go Archery after HBR? Then Alpha?

I stole a worker from Giggles and have since made peace with him although I didn't get any tech in the deal.

Thoughts on where I'm at so far?

Spoiler T65 :

 

[OldDude]

You aren't working the mine in your screenshot(s). I tend to keep the governor on and interfere only when I see it doing something dumb like not working a cottage.

@sampsa, I ended up replaying from T17 and didn't build that mine, as suggested by @krikav.

Thanks!

 

[lymond]

Hey OD -

Okay, some good here is that you have 4 cities now and economy is fine. Here are some things to point out though:

1) Food and chopping still take precedence over cottages., and furs.

2) Worker cottaging Tim, should be sent to cow city to chop granary and then improve cows.

3) New worker in Tim should be whipped this turn into settler. Send worker to forest 1S of furs to chop forest for Settler in Tim . (settler is for clams city - 1NE of clams)

4) Kumbah worker moves immediately to deer improve that, then chop around deer city. Kumbah will need new worker though soon. Maybe another steal or build in kumbah after gran

edit: Deer is actually improved..my eyes my eyes! Probably best then to have chopped gran in Kumbah or chopped horses city first.

5) No reason not to be in Slavery. You are Spiritual so can switch at any time - like now, but if not Spiritual you would switch when first settler pops and moves (no anarchy in new city when is settled) If I have high food cap I will often switch to Slavery immediately so I can whip settler into new worker.

6) No reason not to open borders immediately after Writing. Only thing to note is Worst Enemies but I don't see that here..I think. In my game Shaka did not like Hammy so I did not OB Hammy, but did everyone else, except Gilgs, ofc.

7) Cow city is fine, but I liked that city 1N of cow as a bit of helper city for Tims - can work two cottages for Tim later. But overall the concept is something you need to understand and consider.

8) I actually settled clam city first simply as it was easy to get a food resource up and running quickly with a WB from Tim. Technically deer city was probably better, but I'd have settled clam by now. It will be next though.

9) I'd keep S warrior close to Gilgs horses for potential worker snipage. Probably get at least one chariot out from somewhere as well to protect down there, if so, and a little power. You will be created HAs soon enough though.

10) Shaka may be potential threat even on more docile Prince, but hopefully he turns his attention to someone like Hammy. Not much you can do but pray to RNG gods. (In my game he DOW'd Hammy and actually asked me to join, which I did even as I was at war with a very weak Gilgs. Ended up taking several cities from Hambone ..ha)

11) Whales/horse can be settled eventually 1N of horses..and can even share wheat tile at times. No urgency but do consider. Priority in near future will be HAs.

Overall, decent start but still need to make better decisions with worker management

Yes, switching builds is a very common approach for taking chops and OF. Also, simply to grow city a bit. One can really micro this game immensely, and well, that is exactly what the great players do

 

[as2w]

@lymond I've been following this thread and enjoying it and playing along as well. In earlier advice, you suggested that cow city should be 1NW of cows which is where the OP settled. Then in the above advice, you said you preferred 1N of cows. Minor detail in all of this. But I would be curious. Did your thinking on it change? If so, what changed so that we know better how to think in terms of city overlap and city placements?

I need to replay my turn set as well to get caught up to where the action currently is.

 

[lymond]

@lymond I've been following this thread and enjoying it and playing along as well. In earlier advice, you suggested that cow city should be 1NW of cows which is where the OP settled. Then in the above advice, you said you preferred 1N of cows. Minor detail in all of this. But I would be curious. Did your thinking on it change? If so, what changed so that we know better how to think in terms of city overlap and city placements?

I need to replay my turn set as well to get caught up to where the action currently is.

Nice to see you playing along. Yes, my advice did change somewhat, but I also made a mistake that embarrassingly, as a directionally challenged doofus, I make too often. I believe I really meant 1NE originally in my earlier advice as a) I looked to the city as a helper city for Tim b) at the time I was not sure that AH would be teched sooner than later.

1N is more about being next to the cows and still being somewhat of a helper city to Tim, but really the diff between 1N and 1NE is basically nada, and I just made comment on current inspection without thinking about earlier advice, which at this point I've completely forgotten..ack

 

[OldDude]

If I happen to be playing a Prince game or other lower level game like a GOTM, and I happen to be going for Space, I will often prop up certain AIs with tons of tech gifts to increase the overall tech pace so that I can have the tech stuff for me.

@lymond, could you explain what this means a little more? How does gifting techs increase the overall tech pace?

Thanks.

 

[OldDude]

Now consider this, a PH mine is worth 4H. A whipped citizen is 30H. It takes 8 turns for a PH mine to give 30 hammers (at deficit food..well no food at all from that tile). A 2pop whip gives 60H almost instantly. A 3pop whip gives 90 hammers.

I should know this and I think I do, but if you have a PH mine, does a citizen have to be working that tile to net the hammers? I think yes but I want to confirm.

Thanks!

 

[OldDude]

Hey OD -

Okay, some good here is that you have 4 cities now and economy is fine. Here are some things to point out though:

1) Food and chopping still take precedence over cottages., and furs.

2) Worker cottaging Tim, should be sent to cow city to chop granary and then improve cows.

I'm glad there is some good here but I do need to emphasize getting food going first and foremost.

3) New worker in Tim should be whipped this turn into settler. Send worker to forest 1S of furs to chop forest for Settler in Tim . (settler is for clams city - 1NE of clams)

When you say "whipped into", you mean that (in this case), whip the worker and then build settler next, putting the OF into the settler, correct?

4) Kumbah worker moves immediately to deer improve that, then chop around deer city. Kumbah will need new worker though soon. Maybe another steal or build in kumbah after gran

edit: Deer is actually improved..my eyes my eyes! Probably best then to have chopped gran in Kumbah or chopped horses city first.

Do you chop those tiles where the only thing you can build is a lumbermill? I've always saved those for lumbermills...probably not good?

5) No reason not to be in Slavery. You are Spiritual so can switch at any time - like now, but if not Spiritual you would switch when first settler pops and moves (no anarchy in new city when is settled) If I have high food cap I will often switch to Slavery immediately so I can whip settler into new worker.

I think what happened here is that I did go into Slavery and then went back and replayed from an earlier turn and forgot to go back to it. But you're right...should be in it.

6) No reason not to open borders immediately after Writing. Only thing to note is Worst Enemies but I don't see that here..I think. In my game Shaka did not like Hammy so I did not OB Hammy, but did everyone else, except Gilgs, ofc.

7) Cow city is fine, but I liked that city 1N of cow as a bit of helper city for Tims - can work two cottages for Tim later. But overall the concept is something you need to understand and consider.

8) I actually settled clam city first simply as it was easy to get a food resource up and running quickly with a WB from Tim. Technically deer city was probably better, but I'd have settled clam by now. It will be next though.

9) I'd keep S warrior close to Gilgs horses for potential worker snipage. Probably get at least one chariot out from somewhere as well to protect down there, if so, and a little power. You will be created HAs soon enough though.

10) Shaka may be potential threat even on more docile Prince, but hopefully he turns his attention to someone like Hammy. Not much you can do but pray to RNG gods. (In my game he DOW'd Hammy and actually asked me to join, which I did even as I was at war with a very weak Gilgs. Ended up taking several cities from Hambone ..ha)

11) Whales/horse can be settled eventually 1N of horses..and can even share wheat tile at times. No urgency but do consider. Priority in near future will be HAs.

Overall, decent start but still need to make better decisions with worker management

Yes, switching builds is a very common approach for taking chops and OF. Also, simply to grow city a bit. One can really micro this game immensely, and well, that is exactly what the great players do

@lymond, thanks so much once again. Considering I made a bunch of missteps here I decided to go back to that T17 save and try to do better, taking your advice. I don't mind going back and redoing if it helps me learn all of these little things. I just need to slow down when I play this game.

So, I restarted at T17 and decided I would settle the clam city first. I had whipped a WB into a settler and the WB arrived at the clams the exact same turn as the settler arrived 1E of the clams...pretty cool. Like you said, I had those clams immediately.

Spoiler T40 - Clam City First :

I didn't snipe a worker from Giggles, but note that Shaka has a settler headed for that spot I want.

So I reloaded a save from T30 and settled that PH spot to the east for my first city:

In this one I did snipe a worker from Giggles who obviously is unhappy. Unfortunately Shaka didn't like it either, now I am his worst enemy. I fully expect him to DOW on me at some point.

At any rate, my current build is a settler but I think maybe I should change to WB and then whip into a settler again to claim the clam spot? Worker in Tim is chopping, other worker is starting a road to my first city. Or should he be getting there first to chop the Granary?

Holding here at T40 and I hope you don't mind going back a few times. Let me know if you do. Thanks!

 

[OldDude]

@lymond I've been following this thread and enjoying it and playing along as well. In earlier advice, you suggested that cow city should be 1NW of cows which is where the OP settled. Then in the above advice, you said you preferred 1N of cows. Minor detail in all of this. But I would be curious. Did your thinking on it change? If so, what changed so that we know better how to think in terms of city overlap and city placements?

I need to replay my turn set as well to get caught up to where the action currently is.

@as2w, that's cool. How's your game going?

 

[lymond]

@lymond, could you explain what this means a little more? How does gifting techs increase the overall tech pace?

Thanks.

Probably quite a complex topic for you at this stage, so I would not dwell on it much now. I tend to veer on asides in my thought processes when giving advice. But the gist of it is that at some point during a low level Space game, I might gift particular techs to not only improve the AIs capability to research overall (things like CS or Education), but also techs that open certain tech paths I'd like them to pursue. This especially goes for vassals. I might take one or two strong vassals, or on some maps create colonies (which are vassals and get tech parity with master on creation). You can direct a vassal's research, so I will give them techs to increase research and put on tech paths I"m not focusing currently so I can trade for certain tech later...either key techs or more dead end type techs that I want but don't want to tech - like Democracy) All in all, this can save a significant amount of turns on finish dates for Space by not having to tech a bunch of stuff yourself.

Anyway, gifting and trading techs is going to increase tech pace naturally, regardless, to some degree...whether to vassals or AI in general.

Conversely, as you move up difficulty, tech pace obviously increases significantly with each level due to AI bonuses, and ...well...Deity is crazy times.

I should know this and I think I do, but if you have a PH mine, does a citizen have to be working that tile to net the hammers? I think yes but I want to confirm.

Yep, if a mine or any tile is not being worked by a citizen then you don't get the yield from that tile...hammers, food, commerce. Basic core stuff there.

 

[lymond]

I'm glad there is some good here but I do need to emphasize getting food going first and foremost.

I think you are starting to get the concept down a bit ..at least on paper...it just takes time to get comfortable putting into practice. And, well, it takes practice ha. I played this game for at least a couple of years doing a lot of wrong things that I knew were wrong..ha

When you say "whipped into", you mean that (in this case), whip the worker and then build settler next, putting the OF into the settler, correct?

Exactly. Basically, my shorthand way of saying that item X will be next in queue and catch whatever OF from the previous whip.

edit: but you might move another item up next, after settler takes the OF...like warrior or wb...to grow some ..just depends on timings..chops, etc..

Do you chop those tiles where the only thing you can build is a lumbermill? I've always saved those for lumbermills...probably not good?

Yep, it is all about the now. Getting more stuff soonerer leads to lots more stuff laterer. (note, tundra tiles on rivers can be improved - cottages, workshops, or watermills) Lumbermills are rarely ever built. They come quite late and, therefore, not important in relation to the early hammers from chopping.

I think what happened here is that I did go into Slavery and then went back and replayed from an earlier turn and forgot to go back to it. But you're right...should be in it.

Yep, again you are Spiritual so you can switch any time you are ready...and you will know..ha..when you actually try to whip something. But when you are not Spiritual, you definitely want to switch as soon after BW as feasible. Often when you are moving the first settler to its destination. But like I said, if I have good food in my starting cap, I may often just switch immediately for a 4>2 whip of first settler into new worker...likely with first worker finishing a chop as well. Bang bang..new settler and worker

thanks so much once again. Considering I made a bunch of missteps here I decided to go back to that T17 save and try to do better, taking your advice. I don't mind going back and redoing if it helps me learn all of these little things. I just need to slow down when I play this game.

Absolutely, replaying while learning is encouraged. And practicing these early turns is so key to the game as a whole. Not sure you needed to go so far back though. I actually played a bit from your last save and took Uruk. I attached the save as well, if you'd like to take a look. It does spoil one new AI that I can't remember if you met yet. But she is actually quite close so a bit surprised you haven't met her.

Anyway, I stopped at that point in game for decision on whether I wanted to peace out now for all his tech and hit him 10 turns later. Point though is your last save was still a pretty strong position.

Oh..and I sniped a worker and built a chariot in PH city to deal with stray Sumer warriors while HBR was still in process, but stayed at war so I did not have to take more diplo hits.

So, I restarted at T17 and decided I would settle the clam city first. I had whipped a WB into a settler and the WB arrived at the clams the exact same turn as the settler arrived 1E of the clams...pretty cool. Like you said, I had those clams immediately.

Bingo! This city up early with granary produced quite a few HAs later in my first game.

So I reloaded a save from T30 and settled that PH spot to the east for my first city:

In this one I did snipe a worker from Giggles who obviously is unhappy. Unfortunately Shaka didn't like it either, now I am his worst enemy. I fully expect him to DOW on me at some point.

At any rate, my current build is a settler but I think maybe I should change to WB and then whip into a settler again to claim the clam spot? Worker in Tim is chopping, other worker is starting a road to my first city. Or should he be getting there first to chop the Granary?

Kinda lost me here...sounds like you replayed again?


edit: in the example where you settled clam city first, I would have settled it 1N of that position

 

[krikav]

I should know this and I think I do, but if you have a PH mine, does a citizen have to be working that tile to net the hammers? I think yes but I want to confirm.
Thanks!

Absolutely yes! Tiles around your cities (or in your culture in general) doesn't do anything for your cities if citizens in that city aint working them.
The only thing that happends passively, is when you improve and connect resources (say, copper or horse or corn) then that resource becomes available in your entire connected empire.

Each citizen requires 2F to eat each turn, so what you "net" by working a PH mine (which looks like it's +4 hammers) is actually -2F +4H, or a net positive of +2, if you are building settler/worker.

 

[OldDude]

Kinda lost me here...sounds like you replayed again?

Yes, after settling the clams spot I was prepping for the PH spot only to notice Shaka sending a settler to that area. So I reloaded at T30 to take the PH spot first, then the clams spot.

Spoiler Shaka sending Settler :

Thanks for posting your save. I will look at it after a few more turns as it'll be great to see how you went about things.

 

[OldDude]

Absolutely yes! Tiles around your cities (or in your culture in general) doesn't do anything for your cities if citizens in that city aint working them.
The only thing that happends passively, is when you improve and connect resources (say, copper or horse or corn) then that resource becomes available in your entire connected empire.

Each citizen requires 2F to eat each turn, so what you "net" by working a PH mine (which looks like it's +4 hammers) is actually -2F +4H, or a net positive of +2, if you are building settler/worker.

Thanks @krikav!

 

[OldDude]

OK, I'm at T55 now. I have 3 cities, 3 workers, and 4 warriors. Building a settler in Tim and plan to settle 1N of the cows south of my cap. AH, Archery, Hunting are in, teching Writing. Plan to go HBR after that as I don't trust Shaka not to DOW on me and I've got horses locked up. I've made peace with Giggles. I really want that Deer city before Shaka nabs it so I think I'll turn out another settler as soon as I can.

I see that Giggles only has one city still so maybe I need to start planning to take him out soon. Thoughts welcome!

Spoiler T55 :

EDIT: You might notice that the PH city is building a Barracks. I set it to that for 1 turn as I was 1 turn away from Archery with the intent to change that build to Skim after Archery was in, which I did.

 

[krikav]

I count 19 roads-making turns, at 5 hammers per turn in opportunity cost for the workers (they yield 5 hammers per turn while chopping), this is 100 hammers. Some roads can be good, but this looks very excessive imho.

The north-western city should not be placed there on the grassland, it should be placed on a plains hill, closer to capital= less maintenence. Extra hammer on the city tile and also you "kill" a worthless plainhill tile, and you keep a lucious green tile. The whales are 99% irrelevant, can be claimed with third ring culture for happines much later.

 

[lymond]

Ha ha....my first thought as well on seeing that screenshot is how painful those roads looked. Clam city is only 3 tiles from Tim, yet you built roads on 4 tiles including two hills. Likewise the road from Tim to PH crossed a forest when you had flat tiles and sheep as well that could be hooked up on the way, as well as future connection to deer city.

Point is you need to give better thought to the turns you put into roads and the path you take. As krikav said, that is a lot of wasted worker turns.

But really, roads are not the priority anyway at this stage. Yes, getting those trade routes up and running is good but you can get there eventually.

Which brings up another little trick I've wanted to or may have even mentioned before in one your games. Using half moves of workers to put turns into something like a road or improvements. Workers get two moves. Often you are moving a worker from Point A to Point C to do an improvement, but maybe you can put in a turn of something at Point B. So here are a couple of examples which are both hypothetical:

1) Say Tim just completed a worker and your next priority is improving that sheep tile. It's flat and unforested between Tim and sheep. You have TW. Instead of moving worker directly to sheep to improve the following turn, have the worker move 1t and put 1 turn into a road, then cancel. Move to sheep next turn and improve. By doing so you are laying down partial improvements using those movement points of a worker. This can save considerable turns.

2) Say a worker's next priority is chopping a forest. It is 3 tiles from the target forest and there is flat unforested land in between. (moving into forest obviously takes 1 whole worker turn) If you move a worker directly to the forest from 3 tiles away it takes 2 turns to arrive on the forest. Instead, move worker 1 tile and place a road in a good spot > cancel action. Then move directly onto forest the next turn from 2 tiles away. (this also works for moving onto hill tiles where you lose a turn anyway)

These little tricks can save a lot of turns on roading, especially early on with a leader like Mansa who starts with the TW. You can place turns into roads at certain points as the worker moves around improving and in many cases have the roads completed later in time.

These are really important and helpful ways to improve on worker management early game. And you can do this also for other types of improvements like laying down partial cottages or farms.

Anyway, back to your game. I would not have gone Archery before Writing, and probably not even Hunting yet since you did not settle deer first. Your priorities have changes as you have changed your settling pattern. Ha..it is getting a little confusing. But it is good that your are practicing this over and over. However, I think you were fine just continuing from that save earlier that I just posted a small playthru myself.

 

[as2w]

I'm struggling to get the same results with my micro. I'm at turn 38 and have built worker>>warrior>>WB>>WB>>settler. However my settler is still 3 turns away. So I'm curious how you got your city settled by turn 40 with both WBs also out.

Tech was AG>>BW>>Fishing>>AH. Started chopping as soon as BW came in. First chop went into settler (27/100) and then back to warrior so that city could continue to grow. Further chops into WBs as well as whip 4 to 2 on second WB.

Put wheat to work before it was online (cap was still size 1). Believe this led to 1 less food per turn until farm was on wheat.

Working on my early game micro and trying not to waste any worker turns. So it's a great exercise to do/redo for sure. Just wondering what I'm overlooking.

 

[lymond]

Hard to say without seeing the game. It may have been a growth issue partly. Working 2F tile over 3F tile is bad, yes. You want to max growth when not building a settler or worker, while working best tiles when for them.

You say WB>WB>Settler. By that I assume second WB is part built for growth purposes? That is okay..unless try to wait several turns on getting to size 4 or something on low food. The priority is the settler not the WB, which can be chopped after the settler.

I can't remember myself what I did in my little playthrough earlier. I think I just went with size 3 settler after WB and chopped the settler. I may have 1 popped the settler into the WB.

Usually, in cases of marginal food cap (2 4F tiles is marginal as opposed to strong), I will start building settler at size 3 and just chop it out instead of waiting for growth to pop 4.

Tim can 4>2 whip later after it gets a granary.