Problems on Marathon Deity with "normal" leaders

4 is good and then you don't need to worry about GLH. You'll need the gold commerce to tech IW because it is expensive. Extremely high scores are going to come with being lucky and having someone next to you to build wonders you want like GLH. Ideally someone builds you pyramids, but the odds of that are a lot worse as you'll need to be next to the guy who has stone and is a wonder spammer like louis. Then you capture those wonders with your praets.

Also picking your opponents, I would change it up and put ones with mysticism in since you have no shot at founding a religion, you can still capture one. Like if you start next to ghandi, or asoka, that's pretty advantageous.

Basically get over the fact that you won't be able to build every wonder with a non ind leader who needs to get to IW for his rush! and you'll do fine if you play to Caesar's strengths.

Final word, if you get to IW and find no iron nearby just ditch the game. Yeah it's wasted time, but not worth it if you don't have your most precious resource.
 
I don't plan on teching IW, I'm sure I can get it by trade earlier. If I don't get Iron (which is unlikely on a Huge map) I still have the chance to get it from someone else, but of course, I screw all games where I cannot get it, rushing 2-3 Civs with Praets is a must in this round. And regarding the opponents, I have already changed them to religious weaklings like Ghandi and Asoka :) . Also chose opponents by the tendency to build gold and to be mostly peaceful and not a pain in the neck. Skipping the GLH imho depends on the map. Just made it to get GLH, Oracle and Mids in one game, where I settled on a Marble Hill having riverside Stone, but got boxed in so badly, because 3 Civs were in 10 tiles range of my starting loc, that it wouldn't have been worth to play further :D .

For anyone wanting to play with us: Here are the 2 starting saves, #4 and #9!
 

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#4 will have 11 hammers, #9 will have 12. #5 and #8 are more powerful sites. If my sums are right #5 will have 18 and #8 will have 19 hammers per turn at size 7.

If the priority is to blast through the pyramids and GLH I would think a big hammer capital might be good. Also for building IMP settlers. I guess you're thinking chops though.

Neither #5 nor #8 so hot commerce-wise but a couple of seafoods is 4:commerce: and start #8 isn't bad with several of its best tiles on rivers (edit - and a lake). My too-late vote goes to 8 :)
 
Ok, beginning with start #4:

You've already seen the starting scene. I moved the Warrior 1 SW on the Hill to see if anything was hidden that would suggest settling 1S:



Nothing, so I SIP.

Now the hard question again:

1 Worker, grow to size 2, 2nd Worker, research Agri, improe Corn + Gold, or
2 Workers, research Agri, grow while researching BW afterwards, or
no Worker, grow, research BW first, whip Workers?

I will try out all 3 variants now, unless you know the answer already.

Sera
 
Kid R said:
#4 will have 11 hammers, #9 will have 12. #5 and #8 are more powerful sites. If my sums are right #5 will have 18 and #8 will have 19 hammers per turn at size 7.

If the priority is to blast through the pyramids and GLH I would think a big hammer capital might be good. Also for building IMP settlers. I guess you're thinking chops though.

Neither #5 nor #8 so hot commerce-wise but a couple of seafoods is 4:commerce: and start #8 isn't bad with several of its best tiles on rivers (edit - and a lake). My too-late vote goes to 8 :)
Click to expand...

Start 8 has the big disadvantage, that it has no "real" Food-Ressource. Farmed Bananas are just not good enough, and grassland Cows are good, but need the research of AH, which is almost impossible if we want to oracle in T150. We can get AH then, but that leaves the city with very few medium tiles till then. Feel free to try out though, the start-file is attached.
 

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Ok, tried out all 3 buildorders:

Worker first, grow to size 2, then 2nd Worker was as fast as 2 Workers then grow in the beginning, but up until the point where the city was size 4, growing between the Workers was 3 turns faster!

The slowest variant by far is to work unimproved tiles, research BW first, and whip the workers, I didn't even play that one till the end.
 
Trading for IW seems like you would get it very late, but I don't know, this is marathon deity. It would be *nice* to get it prior to your opponents spamming walls, but that's probably not possible. So you really only need it long before longbows, which would make it tradable.
 
I think the settings mess things up a little bit here. The "rush" doesn't have to happen that early on a Huge map, as there is normally plenty of land to rex. I don't think it's good to stay at only 3-4 cities if one can have like 7-10 peacefully, because twice as many cities also means that one can whip more troops, normally I go by the rule "as long as the land is ok I Settling > War" . "Waiting" for an IW trade on Marathon Deity means to have it at a latest of 2000 BC (T150) , AI will have Walls with 100% at that time. Beelining it would prevent any plans to oracle something of worth, so one maybe would have a little earlier Praets, but one also would have no Alpha, no CoL and not even a chance at Currency. One would fall so far behind in tech and economy would crash so hard, I don't think it's worth it. In addition, Walls don't matter so much I think, a CR-Praet against a Combat-Axe with 25% fortification bonus on a hill in a city with walls (urgs :D) has still over 20% chance, so 2:1 will work.

Btw.: Duckweed demonstrated that Praets even work against Longbows sitting in Chicken-Pizza cities, one needs 2 or 3:1, but with being so cheap, that should be np, actually one can get 2 Praets for 1 Mace.

I really will give Hannibal another thought though, because Numidians might even be stronger. Not against LBs anymore, then they simply lack the base-STR, but against anything else. It's actually hard for me to imagine, but what should own a Numidian?
Numidian vs Axe, 9 vs 5. Numidian vs Sword, 9 vs 6. Against an Archer, 9 vs 4.5. Even a Spear with STR 8 is weaker. Only thing one may not run into, is the War Elephant, there the Praet shines again with getting CR-Promotion over a unit not getting defensive Bonuses. Maybe that's what I also fear, on Huge maps there are so many sources of Ivory, that almost anybody has one.

I even think Praets > Cho-Ku's for this task, as Cho-Ku's appear in the era where there will be already Horse-Archers. Maybe with a 4+ Gems start and Oracle Machinery while skipping Mids. Worst thing is, that in a points-approach, one doesn't want to tech the lower tech-tree so far, because AI will do that for one.

I will try out all the mentioned leaders in the following days / weaks, I need a break from HC for some time, it's just too frustrating to see 9/10 games end before 2000 BC because one A) runs into too many hills cities or B) fails Oracle Currency or C) the 3rd - 4th target got magic Copper / Horses somewhere one can't see.
 
TheMeInTeam said:
Can't you run darius immortal rush and try to luck-capture the mids?
Click to expand...


[EDIT]

Do the T-Hawk? :D

I have my problems with Darius tbh.

Normally those are, that if one doesn't start out with Horses in the BFC, AI will have Copper / Iron by the time one rushes for 100%, and I still don't know if this is a Marathon issue, but my AIs build 90% Spears and no Axes.

Luck capturing Mids with 17 Civs on a Huge map is extremely hard, that's a chance of 17% if capturing 3 complete Civs.
 
I continued on playing start #4.

I used the Worker -> Grow to Size 2 -> 2nd Worker BO and researched Agri -> BW and am beelining Priesthood atm with planning on Masonry and maybe TW as follow-ups, though I think I'll get TW by trade. I improved the Corn first, then 1 FP, then the 2 Golds, then another FP. I let Rome grow to Size 5 which is it's happy Cap and 2450 BC the first Settler completed, without any whipping yet. I did revolutionize to Slavery already though, because there was a good moment where I had to wait for a chop to complete.

Here is a Screen of 2 possible city sites I see:



I don't expect anybody to be still awake (though in America, it should be primetime atm) so I won't wait to settle. I have a made a save of 2450 to be on the safe side. I'm going to settle white first, because it shares a FP with the Capital and can work another FP once it has grown. When getting a Borderpop, Corn, Cows and gold will become available, so I think it's a decent site.
After that I'm gonna settle Blue if Asoka lets me (he is also the one having founded Hinduism so Borderpops should be available early by Religion once he or me has Writing) , because it's the only Marble in reach.

Any comments on the path taken aswell as the city placement are as well appreciated as players joining in on this.

Cya soon, Seraiel

[EDIT]

Decided to place White 1S, because it picks up 2 more Forrests like that and can work the Gold without Borderpop. It also doesn't share as many tiles with the Capital like that, has an additional FP and Lincoln, who sits in the South will not be able to steal any tiles by settling near. Better than extra-Cows in XY turns imho.
 
Still playing start #4.

Settled White, still had no Priesthood so built another Settler and another Worker, settled Blue, discovered Priesthood. Began on producing the Oracle while researching Masonry.

Wang Kong and Lincoln reached Alpha a little bit earlier then expected and I didn't want to miss Oracle, so I supported the build with a 2pop Workerwhip with heavy OF and some Chops, here is a Screen from 2100 BC (T140) with the Oracle 1 turn from being completed:



As you see, most of the Forrests are gone, so I wonder how I will get the Mids. Some additional Forrests will become available by the 2nd Borderpop of Rome in a few turns, but there still will be a lot of normal building necessary. Only possibilities would have been to not produce so many Settlers, but that's actually no choice for me, as some Civs already have more than twice as many cities like I have. Another possibility would have been, if there had been another place having lots of Trees, then I could chop out the Mids in 2nd or 3rd city. Maybe getting Oracle and Mids is not possible with tropical climate.

It's still very early though, so I'm hopeful and research looks very very good with 3 Golds.

Feel free to play the 2100 BC save, it's very strong I think, but feel also free to try out from the 4000 BC save on your own, I'd be happy if you could beat me and show me how you did that. Other comments and anyone talking from experience also appreciated very much.

The trades I conducted in this game were a little lucky tbh, but I don't think that it would have made a huge difference, if they had been worse, having so much :commerce: . Lincoln and Wang Kong reached Alpha on the same turn, traded BW + Mysticism for Writing in which I had researched about 80 :science: . Traded Meditation after that for TW and Masonry + Priesthood for Sailing. The last trade I would not have conducted if Lincoln had not been a neighbour, but as he is, and as he got stone, I don't mind if he builds the Mids for me :) . Guess he'll be too late anyway, either I will get them earlier or someone else will.

Till later, Seraiel
 

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This is a stupid joke from the game again... Mids went in 1860 BC. I chopped with 3 Workers and was still 10 turns from finishing them, no way I could have reached them at that time. Is this normal? This is the 3rd or 4th time in a row that the Mids go that early in the game, in my Incan games, they aren't built until 1200 BC sometimes... I don't get it how it shall be possible to get those, more focus would have ment skipping Oracle and that is no choice, both must be possible :mad: . I'm going to play a map with temperate climate now, maybe the more trees in 2nd and 3rd city will make the difference.

Waiting for your comments.
 
Seraiel said:
This is a stupid joke from the game again... Mids went in 1860 BC. I chopped with 3 Workers and was still 10 turns from finishing them, no way I could have reached them at that time. Is this normal? This is the 3rd or 4th time in a row that the Mids go that early in the game, in my Incan games, they aren't built until 1200 BC sometimes... I don't get it how it shall be possible to get those, more focus would have ment skipping Oracle and that is no choice, both must be possible :mad: . I'm going to play a map with temperate climate now, maybe the more trees in 2nd and 3rd city will make the difference.

Waiting for your comments.
Click to expand...

wonders are always sort of gamble...I had discussion about this with TMIT in some other thread in general discussions.
Out of the 3 you want I consider Mids the safest if you watch for stonehenge and Great Wall dates, but as TMIT said it's still gamble ;-)

You posted the saves when I was in bed...I would probably try IW rush with the #4 save...but since I already saw the land (spoilers man...I know it's your thread, your games, but if you want honest shadows you should have spoiled) it isn't honest attempt.
 
Nice that you still wanna try this :)

Don't mind the spoilers, what you see there is something you can explore with your Warriors before settling a city and iirc, no strategic Ressources are shown. Also I don't mind if the attempts on this are "honest" or not, as long as somebody doesn't use Worldbuilder. I could also have chosen "lock modified assets" but I didn't, reloading is allowed in this scenario, it looks like we're trying something impossible like gettig 2 of the 3 holy Wonders on Deity while not being IND.

Better comment on the city placement I took, I got much to learn there, though I think that I got it quite well this time. And if you think you can IW rush...

Spoiler :

The only Iron available is from Hatty by trade because there isn't any in 30 tiles radius! But doesn't matter, Hatty won't give it to you as offering her Gold + Corn + Stone is not enough for that spoiled Biatch :mad: .


See? :D
 
ha! I didn't look into the spoiler...so I will realize why not IW after playing this evening.

As for city placement... my aim with non-creative leader is always to settle with at least 1 food resource 1st ring... flood plains qualify.

btw my plan probably is not to aim for the wonders...will think about it once I open the save, but preliminary I think it will be Praet aim->rush the 2 golds are primer reason why to do so...

What I remember from some huge games is that the resources are a bit spread more then on standard, so overlap is less good thing.
 
Seraiel said:
Start 8 has the big disadvantage, that it has no "real" Food-Ressource. Farmed Bananas are just not good enough, and grassland Cows are good, but need the research of AH, which is almost impossible if we want to oracle in T150. We can get AH then, but that leaves the city with very few medium tiles till then.
Click to expand...

If GLH is on the agenda the lighthouse would be 2 x 5:food: coasts quite quickly - unless heavy whipping is planned maybe it's enough because all the hills are grass ones.

No happies though. A good thing about the gems/gold starts in addition to the commerce is the :) which is pretty big. Basically the capital can be 6/5 as effective at the very start of the snowball process.

The first start in this thread with +2:), 5 grass hills and wet corn looked superb, apart from lack of stone or coast.
 
vranasm said:
ha! I didn't look into the spoiler...so I will realize why not IW after playing this evening.

As for city placement... my aim with non-creative leader is always to settle with at least 1 food resource 1st ring... flood plains qualify.

btw my plan probably is not to aim for the wonders...will think about it once I open the save, but preliminary I think it will be Praet aim->rush the 2 golds are primer reason why to do so...

What I remember from some huge games is that the resources are a bit spread more then on standard, so overlap is less good thing.
Click to expand...

Don't forget, this is a Big & Small map and the aim is still to play for points. Not getting the Mids = no possibility to run an all Farms SE = Fail. We can argue about Oracle, though I find even that hard, because Oracle is just so overly powerful. 2000 :science: for just 450 :hammers: , where does one get such a conversion rate... :mischief:

Kid R said:
If GLH is on the agenda the lighthouse would be 2 x 5:food: coasts quite quickly - unless heavy whipping is planned maybe it's enough because all the hills are grass ones.

No happies though. A good thing about the gems/gold starts in addition to the commerce is the :) which is pretty big. Basically the capital can be 6/5 as effective at the very start of the snowball process.

The first start in this thread with +2:), 5 grass hills and wet corn looked superb, apart from lack of stone or coast.
Click to expand...

Kid_R, why don't you play with us and also give your favorite start a try? I'm trying out temperate maps atm as they have more forrests, maybe that will allow me to fail on all three Wonders, one in each city. Vranasm is trying to not play the map, as you see from his comment, what we still lack is someone that invents a totally uber method of failing so that our fails don't look so bad. So are you with us? :D
 
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