Prophets for Profits: Ramesses and the Chariot of Fire

Demo sounds good. Buy buy or whip whip if you cant be bothered to wait 7 turns. You could probably whip every city down to 1 delete all your units, start over and still win this so I don't think the rest of the plans require that much care.

To speed things up I suggest RAZE RAZE RAZE RAZE RAZE using your speed to avoid their armies. Mao is actually the easiest to subdue first due to most of his major cities being coastal. You think he might submit if you just burn down the four biggest ones?

I lolled at bar stool btw :).
 
How do Great Artists fund the war machine?

Love the backstab on Churchill. :rofl:
 
Romans vassalised to Greece in my game too (you can probably read my spoiler in an earlier post now, it was a fun one). I went for culture though, just because I thought it would be fun to do so without any great artists.

Remember that when you research astronomy, you'll lose 2 prophet slots from all your cities. So make sure that any cities that need them have cathederals/more temples to make up for this.

I never really looked at the foreign land, so can't offer any military tips on who to hit first.
 
How do Great Artists fund the war machine?

Settled Artists produce gold. I was trying to come up with a way to use them that was a bit more unconventional, much like the way I'm using Prophets to fund mid-late game warfare instead of building a ton of shrines (though we may yet build a ton of shrines anyway). That may end up being sort of a lousy strategy, but the best option I can come up with besides that is just generating a ton of artists and shooting for as early a culture win as I can (which will probably mean going with Pericles instead of Alex).

Astronomy is already in, and I was hoping that we'd still keep our Obelisks in every city, but obsoleting Stonehenge got rid of them all. Cities that were running 2-3 priests beforehand have build cathedrals now. I've got to say that it's been interesting using cathedrals for the priest slots instead of their conventional use for a culture win. One or two otherwise crap cities are getting cathedrals. I'll probably use at least some of this final round to do some missionary spam and get a few more temples up.

So we all seem in agreement that going military is the way to go. Teching Democracy before turning off the slider for a bit sound okay? I may go for the grand finale in the next day or so.
 
Chapter 6
As Insects Before Gods

Goals for This Round:

* A peaceful cultural victory. Totally, all day, no really.

The God-King--and, now, the God-Prime Minister--had seen the inhabitants of the other continent, and what he saw was not altogether impressive. While the Egyptians and her vassals enjoyed untold riches and the wisdom of their faiths, the Greeks, Romans, and Chinese were--by and large--without regard for the infinite. The opening of trade lanes by sea had brought some of the faithful to this new land, but for the most part, the continent was full of heathens, barbaric pagans who worshiped rivers and trees instead of the intellect that moved the universe.

This would have to change. If Pacal with his intellectual castes and Churchill with his bullish determination could be subjugated, then so too could the barbarian Alexander. His hordes were massive--Ramesses's intelligence knew that much--but the forces sent to protect his coasts were... lacking.

Spoiler :


And why would they not be? The threats to Greek life lay in the south with Caesar and the west with China. Armies simply did not emerge from the sea. A naval capable of ferrying a force for war across the ocean would be massive and impractical.

But in Thebes, the wheels of government turned onward.

Spoiler :


With untold wealth at his disposal, Ramesses announced a program to offer just a small portion of his fortune to the shipwrights of Elephantine and the young military recruits across the empire. The promise of gold brought the finest engineers to Ramesses's cities, and the Egyptian navy was assembled in record time.

St. Patrick of Kyoto, seeing the generosity of the king, opted not to join his fellows in Tokyo and, instead, saw fit to encourage Egyptians throughout the empire to join the war effort.

Spoiler :


The Golden Age of Shipbuilding led to a production spike throughout the empire. Cash continued to flow into Ramesses's pockets as research slowed to a crawl. Production increased twofold in the workshops across the land. And Mencius--a Muslim cleric of Heliopolis--commemorated the age by establishing a shrine in the City of the Sun.

Spoiler :


(The game was basically won, so I set about shrining the last two religions. Settling prophets would've been more profitable, but I was pretty sure I couldn't lose at this point.)

Suddenly, in the midst of the Golden Age, Ramesses showed his hand.

Spoiler :


The vast stores of gold distributed across the empire were immediately seized by agents of the palace as all property was declared property of the pharaoh himself. Outraged citizens took to the streets in riots, but the slave castes were easily subdued by the rifle-toting guards who patrolled the streets of every city. All materiel, meanwhile, was shipped west, where the fruits of Ramesses's people's labors crested the waves at Argos.

Spoiler :


Alexander's conversion to Judaism had, of course, been a ruse--an attempt to wrest control of the Apostolic Palace from Ramesses. There were no delusions between the two leaders regarding what was at hand. Alexander, seeing the tall masts of the Egyptian ships cresting over the horizon at Argos, took to his horse immediately. Outwardly, he was pleased--war was as familiar to the Greek king as water to fish--but inwardly, he was fearful.

The frigates of Heliopolis and Pi-Ramesses did their work, and in no time at all, a beachhead was established at Argos and reinforced by rifles.

Spoiler :


The Greek capital at Athens and the northern village of Pharsalos would fall in a few short years.

Alexander's military forces, however, seemed lacking. For a man renowned far and wide as a brilliant general, he offered only a token attempt to retake his own capital.

Spoiler :


This distribution of his forces allowed the Egyptians to seize complete control of the Greek coast.

Spoiler :


And all the while, new horsemen and riflemen continued to pour across the seas into the war zone.

Spoiler :


(I sort of liked this picture of the supply lines in action. Troops gathered in Elephantine to be shipped to the front, while Galleons went back and forth. As usual, I built too many Galleons and not enough Frigates. Not that it mattered at this point.)

Finally, from the west, the feared Greek military that had mowed down Julius Caesar like wheat showed itself south of Athens.

Spoiler :


The force of mounted knights and horse archers had, in centuries past, made Alexander the scourge of the continent, and in their shear numbers, they remained a fearsome force. But Ramesses's cavalry knew no fear. Stoically, even the wounded rode on Alexander's forces, and the fierce Greek force was whittled down to scraps.

Spoiler :


Seeing the very units that had long ago smashed him reduced to nothing, Julius Caesar found the courage to declare his independence from his Greek overlord. His emissaries traveled to Elephantine on an Egyptian vessel, where they met with Ramesses himself to negotiate a cessation of aggression.

Spoiler :


The prowling frigates blockading Caesar's ports instead continued to patrol the coasts, remaining mindful of barbarian galleys. At least, that's what they said.

Ramesses continued to harass his lessers via the powers of the Apostolic Palace.

Spoiler :


(Sorry, Pacal. You work for ME, buddy.)

With a few final, quick strikes against the fortress-city of Knossos and the new Greek capital at Ephesus, Ramesses traveled to Greece himself. He found Alexander himself staggering drunk in the new city, a bottle of ouzo clutched in his hand. Seeing Ramesses and his retinue in his city, Alexander fell to one knee. Maybe it was the wine. In any case, Alexander woke up the next morning with a massive headache and found himself subject to the will of the Egyptian Empire.

Spoiler :


Suddenly, the frigates biding their time off the Roman coast began to move inland. Fast-striking cavalry on a nearby ship put the coastal village of Satricum to the torch, while Ramesses's army proper settled in near Setia.

Spoiler :


The Roman army charged up the hill, and wave after wave of knights and members of the Praetorian Guard threw themselves at Ramesses's forces.

Needless to say, it was no use.

Spoiler :


And Setia was allowed to stand.

Finally, as St. Thomas Aquinas completed a Hindu shrine in Giza, the Egyptian army swept westward for one last military operation.

Spoiler :


Much as Caesar had done years earlier, Mao threw his entire military at the Egyptian invaders. Much as Caesar had done years earlier, Mao saw his entire military get run down by the well-trained cavalry gunners.

And, much as Caesar had done years earlier, Mao gave up without a fight, surrendering before the cavalry could march on Chengdu.

Spoiler :


And, in 1720 AD, one final Egyptian galleon arrived from the other continent, carrying in the brig three prisoners.

Spoiler :


Alexander, Julius Caesar, and Mao Zedong were brought before tribunals at the Apostolic Palace and hanged as heretics. The Egyptian cavalry set to work traveling from city to city on the distant continent, putting any works commemorating these former kings to the torch. Museums were razed, statues were torn down, and monuments were reduced to rubble. In five short years, it was as if Mao, Alexander, and Caesar had never existed.

The theocratic Egyptian state still rules the world to this day, though Ramesses has--in these times of peace--mellowed somewhat. While slavery remains the norm throughout all states of the empire, the people by and large put their efforts toward works of art and beauty rather than weapons of war. Much remained unchanged for the slave-states of the Maya and the English; Churchill was granted a role as the general for Ramesses's army, while Pacal serves as chief adviser.

Ramesses, however, remains ambitious. Today, he has turned his hungry eyes from the distant continent to the sky. Perhaps someday, he could parlay his knowledge toward a new end, building a chariot that could ferry him across the stars themselves. But that is another story for another time.

(Final write-up and analysis to come later today.)
 
Post-Game Analysis:

Well, this was certainly a fun game, to say the least! Going down an unconventional tech path with a leader that I've not played too often made things interesting, and leveraging Egypt's UB for all it was worth was different from my usual Egypt game (1. Play Hattie; 2. Rock out with Creative; 3. Never ever worry about Obelisks; 4. Win game, because Hattie.).

I think I made a few mistakes this game. Looking back on TMiT's win, I think Oracle for Monarchy would've been much stronger. It's interesting seeing how different our games went despite going for the same win condition, where I tried to force the issue by founding a lot of religions and he focused on cottage spam. Still, I like that I was able to focus more on the various things a prophet can do, though straight settling also strikes me as a strong strategy.

How profitable are shrines?

Here's a quick look at Tokyo, the Jewish holy city, after the last turn of the game. Slider is at 100%, so no commerce is going to gold.

Spoiler :


34 gold per turn from the shrine, plus 2 extra gold from the Spiral Minaret. With multipliers and settled prophets, this amounts to 108 gold per turn. That's pretty impressive, especially given that the religion didn't spread much on the other continent. On a Pangaea map or with a player dedicated to missionary spam, I can see a good shrine making a ton of bank, and the Jewish shrine should've been the most profitable in the game.

Compare to Kyoto, home of the less profitable Mahabodhi:

Spoiler :


Keep in mind, that 92 gold per turn is skewed by the city building gold, which I'm pretty sure isn't multiplied. Both cities have all three gold-multiplying buildings (Market, Grocer, and Bank). The Buddhist shrine, while still pulling in decent money, isn't quite the monster that the Jewish shrine was, which--after the multipliers--really took off. I did pursue the spread of Judaism much more aggressively than the spread of Buddhism, but that's mainly because I had more important things to build than bald-headed monks when it was time to get on boats and kill things.

All that having been said, consider the settled prophets in Tokyo, which are pulling in 5 gold apiece. With three more settled prophets--presumably gathered from ignoring bulbs and shrines--I'd have been pulling in the same number as the shrine. That's a pretty sweet deal, all things considered, and I likely could've pulled it off with some focus. Each settled Great Prophet brings in the equivalent of five successful missionary spreads per turn, which doesn't sound great until you remember that those five missionaries can be five axemen with change, four catapults or horse archers, six chariots, five swordsmen... any number of things that can turn the tide in a war.

This, I think, is something a lot of lower-level players take for granted--not the cost of building something, but the opportunity cost of not building something else.

All told, I think in a "normal" game (with mixed specialists), a shrine is a good use of a prophet, but I'd be much more inclined to settle them if given the chance to play this game again.

How profitable are the Great Prophet wonders?

I did a little pre-game analysis of the Prophet-generating wonders before the game. That was in theory. How'd they play out in practice?

Stonehenge: As Egypt, Stonehenge is a really powerful wonder--two free specialist slots in every single city is a fantastic bonus. Leveraged better with Representation, it could be huge. I still don't see much value in it since so much else needs to be built in the early game, but with a strong production base and Ramesses at the helm, it can be valuable. I'd say Stonehenge could be the catalyst for a lot of strategies with Rammy, particularly on Pangaea maps where Astronomy might never get teched.
The Oracle: Still pretty awesome. One thing I'm learning about effective Oracle slingshotting is how much dedication it takes in teching; a player often has to head down a very specific tech path to get the really juicy stuff (Feudalism, Civil Service, Philosophy, Machinery in a pinch), forsaking a lot of otherwise valuable tech paths. That said, the CoL slingshot I performed is one of the most straightforward ones. I don't know if it was the correct one, but it's how we got the religion that won us the game.
Chicken Pizza: Even now, still pretty useless.
Shwedagon Paya: By all accounts useless due to our tech path. When I build it in a normal game, I tend to do so to run either Free Religion for diplomacy or Theocracy for war (Theology is a low, low, low priority tech in my typical game). If I can get it cheap, I might make a try for it, but to be honest, it's not that great.
Apostolic Palace: There's something really fun about this one and the way it turned out in this game. Lots of people like to build it for cheese victories, but I built it without even once considering using it to win. Having the votes to control the thing and issue mandates from the bully pulpit was a ton of fun, particularly when it led to me being able to boss around Alexander, with whom I was at war. Leveraging it in this way, though, requires a lot of suboptimal strategy (emphasizing missionaries over other units). It can pay off, though.
Angkor Wat: I was surprised at how little use I got out of this one. Simply put, that one extra hammer for the priest specialists just didn't amount to much. An interesting prospect for this game, but I don't think I'll build it again.
The Spiral Minaret: Holy cow! Out of all of the wonders we built, this one was the MVP. For a Spiritual leader who gets cheap temples, I can see this one being pretty valuable. However, I do think that one reason it worked so well here is that it dovetailed nicely with our strategy, which valued temple-building for additional specialist slots. In a straight prophet game, therefore, the Minaret can be a potent wonder. I can see it being a boon in cultural games as well.
Moai Statues: Still not that great. I do like this UB with the Dutch, but all it did was turn a marginal city into a halfway decent production town that, ultimately, ended up building Wealth for us.

What other wonders would dovetail with a priest-driven strategy?
Pyramids: The big one--with our gold surplus and Spiritual allowing civic switches, I was aching to switch into Rep to power up our priests and Universal Suffrage to rush-buy units. The Pyramids could've been huge this game.
University of Sankore: Much like the Minaret, this is pretty much the only strategy where I'd want to build the Sankore these days. The gold surplus, of course, made up for not having it, since we were able to run a high slider for much of the game.
Sistine Chapel: For culture games. Honestly, I only ever build this wonder anymore to deny it to the AI.
Parthenon: With Pacifism in the mid-game, we were able to generate quite a few prophets, but I always miss this one. Being able to steal part of the benefit of Philosophical for a relatively low price (for Ramesses anyway) would've helped a lot.
National/Heroic Epic: Obviously. I missed these soooooooooooooooooo much.

Overall:

A priest strategy seems to pull the player in one of two directions: culture or war. Had I gone for a straight-up peaceful space victory without also subjugating the land, I don't think I could've kept pace (especially not late in the game when Pacal seemed to kick in and become a contender). The value of priests is that settling them can pay for a big empire. There were times when I missed scientists (the latter part of the Liberalism race), but I'd call Great Prophets underrated on the whole.

Who's next?

Here are the Great People we can explore next and a rough idea for each one:

Great Artist: Currently my favorite contender. Either of the Greek leaders works. Louis seems appropriate for this one as well. Greece can get more of them without Caste System, though.
Great Engineer: A tough call but an intriguing one. My immediate thought is Qin Shi Huang of China (for cheap Forges, the ability to crank out the Pyramids, and Chukonus on the bulb line), but with few slots early, this seems to call for Philosophical, doesn't it? Hmmm.
Great Merchant: I won't do this one until madscientist is done with his game. Elizabeth seems the most obvious pick here for a high finance game.
Great Spy: I honestly don't know. Freddy? Philosophical plus cheap Courthouses. This one might be a fairly interesting game.
Great Scientist: Anybody Philosophical leader will do, I think. Peter of Russia can generate more scientists than anyone, of course, but his big scientist-generating building doesn't happen until late. Maybe a run to see how quickly we can tech to space? Hmmm.

Thanks for the read, guys; I hope you had as much fun as I did!
 
Good game. I really enjoyed the write up. Looking forward to the next one.

Always inspiring reading these. If I wasn't at work I would have started a new game so fast....
 
Hey Ozman, if you havne't I'd encourage you to read how this game went for me, it shows how a cultural game might go on this map. In fact I'd encourage you just to read posts generally, as my last post you clearly didn't read as you then restated half of it as your own in the next post :p

Interesting what you say about not being able to get to space. I'm actually playing another prophets game now too, but with pyramids and UoS allowed too and at Emperor difficulty. I'm trying for space. I'm almost at 30 cities now but man that Asoka sure knows how to tech. Should be possible though.

I wouldn't go for Peter if you go for a scientist game... even when I beelined his UB, it still didn't add much.
 
Great write up. I really enjoyed reading it, and shadowing part of the game. :)
 
Hey Ozman, if you havne't I'd encourage you to read how this game went for me, it shows how a cultural game might go on this map. In fact I'd encourage you just to read posts generally, as my last post you clearly didn't read as you then restated half of it as your own in the next post :p

Interesting what you say about not being able to get to space. I'm actually playing another prophets game now too, but with pyramids and UoS allowed too and at Emperor difficulty. I'm trying for space. I'm almost at 30 cities now but man that Asoka sure knows how to tech. Should be possible though.

I wouldn't go for Peter if you go for a scientist game... even when I beelined his UB, it still didn't add much.

I read it now (hadn't gotten around to reading all of the shadows yet). I can see how culture would be a powerful option on this map. Even without running culture, I built a ton and a half of cathedrals just because they were pretty easy to get.

And yes, I did read your post; I just started mine at the same time as you posted yours, got up and did something else, and posted anyway. I do read everybody's posts and try to respond normally, but sometimes I screw up. ;)

Looking at the starting positions, Rome just seems screwed on this map--little room to expand outside of jungle and easily cut off by both neighbors. Alex is poised to take all of the good land in the northern part of the continent, and Caesar won't be able to keep up.

Regarding space: one of the biggest challenges for going that route, I think, would be production. Without the Ironworks, it seems tricky. That said, I could see a site like the place where I built Heliopolis in my game serving as a powerhouse production site under SP with workshops and a levee. So it might be doable still.

Whom would you guys like to see for the scientist game? Philosophical sounds strongest, but we can do basically anybody with it. Lincoln, Gandhi, Sitting Bull, and Suleiman are the other Philosophical leaders without an obvious direction to them like Liz or the Greeks. I've already played a Sitting Bull game online, so I'm disinclined to go that route. Lincoln is of course fun, but I've done an American game too. Both Gandhi and Suleiman are pretty strong. If not Peter, I'll probably do scientists with Gandhi.
 
Definitely Gandhi. Your creative writing will make that game a blast to follow.
 
Great game Oz. Keep it up. You have got another follower :)
 
Sounds like a lot of people are eager to see Gandhi get one of these games, so I'll throw him a bone and give him Great Scientists. Top contenders for the next game, therefore, are a Greek leader with Artists or Gandhi with Scientists.

If I go with Scientists, what victory should I pursue? A straight run down the tech tree for space might be interesting, seeing just how far scientists can take us (and how quickly they can get us there). Scientists are good enough to leverage toward basically any condition, though. We could maybe even shoot for culture.

What do you all want to see?
 
Excellent writing, I really enjoyed it :thumbsup:

Shadowed until about 800BC, then checked out the thread and got a little dishearted of your position compared to mine, with a certain angry man still alive. Could perhaps have spurred on from there considering I Oracled Monarchy for a bit of happiness, but it's clear there is a gulf and a half between my game and what you guys pull off.

Look forward to the next series. A space race with peaceful Indian great scientists sounds intriguing.
 
"The elders gathered around as Patel showed off his latest invention. It was a bowl of water, with a needle floating in it'

'I don't get it.'

'Watch,' Patel says. He turned the bowl carefully, but the needle remained pointing in the same direction. 'The needle is magnetized. It will always point towards the North. Do you see the implications? Do you?!'

Most of the elders didn't, but he saw the faces of a few light up in comprehension, and soon the babble of ideas, of what uses this could be put to, of how it would revolutionize sailing, exploration.

'This could change everything!' Akhila proclaims. 'We must have a feast to celebrate... FOR SCIENCE!'

And so it was done. And if later that night, Akhila and Patel found another way to celebrate, no one seemed to mind."
 
I don't think its really possible but I want to see DOMINATION. via culture.... is that even possible?
 
OneLeggedRhino did it shadowing somebody else's game. It's possible, but it doesn't really fit the sort of game I'm going for here (it requires a wide variety of GP types, for one).
 
Always fun to read your threads, Oz.

I'm voting for an Artist game, scientists are too generic on this forum. Someone should take a look at the bulb tables and see what kind of techs you could pull out of your feathered cap.
 
Artists with whom?

As I'm thinking about it, I'm leaning toward France for Artists. We can eke out a similar effect to Philosophical with the Parthenon, and Salons grant artists as well. That does limit our options for running artists to Theaters and the Globe in the early game, but being able to wonderspam as one of France's Industrious leaders might make up for it. Maybe De Gaulle? The idea of using artist funds to power expansion remains the same, of course, but the approach will be slightly different with France, where the focus will be more on wonder spam than running specialists.

The perfect storm, of course, might be De Gaulle of France, but then again, the perfect storm here would've been Gandhi of Egypt. :p

It'll likely depend on my mood when I get back from vacation which direction I go. Straight Scientists with Gandhi will probably be pretty easy, which may be the mood I'm in when I get back. Six days in Florida with my kids is probably going to stress me out! Of course, that might heighten my desire to raze the earth with our gods of rock, too.
 
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