Question on heaven...

[El_Machinae]

You have it all backwards. You are asking the question as if you are in your essence a human being that will eventually have a spiritual experience in heaven. You are actually in your essence a spiritual being, that is currently choosing to have a human experience. Once you are complete with that human experience, you will rejoin the one consciousness (in "heaven").

So, if a person dies 'early' are they diminished (in Heaven) with regards to some who lived a full life?

 

[civ2]

So, if a person dies 'early' are they diminished (in Heaven) with regards to some who lived a full life?

A "full" life is not a number of years - it's how the person lived and what accomplished.
This can take 100 years - and can take less.
Fortunate people have long "full" lives - but there stupid ones that live a long and absolutely "empty" lives...
It's all up to you - sort of.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I believe in a resurrection of the body. We will all have perfect bodies free from illness or injury and ageless in a sense. If on earth we suffered from a condition that limited our mental abilities that condition will be gone. We will also constantly be growing in wisdom that far exceeds what we can have here, so the smartest man ever will not have a major advantage relative to someone who died young. And since we won't go through stages of development such as we have now, there won't be "adults" or children" like we understand the terms now.

 

[El_Machinae]

There won't be continued procreation in Heaven? What will you populate your Heaven with?

Actually, the Mormon future and the El_Mac future sound similar - I just don't include the dying part.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

There won't be continued procreation in Heaven? What will you populate your Heaven with?

Oh, right, there will be procreation, but among people who were born and lived and died on this earth, there will be no concept of "child" and "adult".

Actually, the Mormon future and the El_Mac future sound similar - I just don't include the dying part.

Ours has the advantage that it will be available to everyone who has ever lived. Yours has the advantage that you see it as actually existing, one day.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, I can't factor in people who're already dead.

Unless we perform one hell of a quantum extrapolation, which is easily beyond my ability to imagine. Unless I get a bit 'spliffy'(), which is for another day, but involves atoms eventually reforming (giving infinite time arrange themselves) into the same person who already was dead - and then making *that* person immortal.

But, it's not what I really think anyway.

 

[Eukaryote]

If a child dies, is he a child in heaven? Will he ever grow up to be an adult?
What about a fetus?
What about someone suffering from alzheimers? Will a person lose his mind while in heaven?


Can someone explain what would happen in these situations, and others. Thanks.

I beive heaven is a place filled with infinite non-phisical souls who have the freedom to create their own worlds to go to and go to other peopls worlds that they've created. Since the souls would be infinite, there would always be enough people to come to your world and the world you want to go to would always be avalible. And then if and when you died on that world you'd go to another one. I belive this becuase I figure the perfect world is diffrent for everyone and God knows that so he'd let's us choose.

 

[civ2]

As a religious Jew I believe (on the topical subject):
0. There is God. (Obvious. )
1. There is a non-physical soul.
2. The soul was planted into the body and uses it as a transport to upgrade the world and get it closer to God.
3. After the death all souls are going to be judged by God - and this Judgement is absolute and just.
4. According to the life a person lived he's either punished or instantly let into Heaven.
5. The punishment of an average ("normal") person is NOT eternal - while a "ticket to Heaven" IS.
6. In some cases the souls needs to reincarnate once again to rectify what it missed.
7. One day (let God make as soon as possible ) there will be "the World to Come".
8. There will be also the Resurrection of the Dead when all people will rise again to be judged.
9. The righteous ones will then live forever.
10. In those times will be no illnesses nor wars or others lacks of anything - and "the entire world will be full of God's knowledge like an ocean".

Could be continued if needed.

 

[El_Machinae]

Isn't it nearly impossible to get to Heaven as a Jew? Aren't there too many sins?

 

[civ2]

El_Machinae
"God wanted to bring worth upon the Jews and so He burdened them with many Commandments" and therefore "even the sinners in Israel are full with Commandments as a pomegranate".
Those are quotes from the prayers.
I mean to have many sins you have to have many commandments.
and you can't "sin" all of them.
Basically - if you stay still and do nothing you already "don't kill" and "don't steal" even if you'd like to.
There are people (of any origin) that "try" to break as amny commandments as they can - or it seems like that.
But "normal" people are usually in the "average" positon - which is better than being evil but of course worse than trying to improve youself.

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm under the impression that ANY sin voids Heaven for a Jew, doesn't it?

 

[puglover]

There won't be continued procreation in Heaven?

That is a question only God knows the answer to. (please, Lord? please?)\

I'm under the impression that ANY sin voids Heaven for a Jew, doesn't it?

As far as I know, the Jews have no form of redemption, only judgment. But I'm waiting to see Civ2's response to see what an actual Jew thinks.

 

[.Shane.]

Do aborted fetuses go to heaven?

What about dead sperm?

 

[CaptainF]

I renege on my previous comment.

Heaven and Hell are both states of mind, not physical locations.

 

[Birdjaguar]

What about dead sperm?

Dead sperm are not humans in anybody's theology.

In fundamentalist circles, the question of fetuses, babies and young children going to heaven is an issue. Here is a link on the subject.

http://www.learnthebible.org/q_a_age_of_accountability.htm

And here is a forum discussion on the same topic. The above link is from this discussion.

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=264623

What is interesting about the discussion is that for those posters, quoting scripture and interpreting deftly it is the most valid proof of correctness.

 

[Perfection]

Do aborted fetuses go to heaven?

No, they haven't been unbaptized, those who are unbaptized go to hell.

 

[Sidhe]

I have a Catholic education, and actually, just learned about this the past school year. When you die and go to heaven, you are. You simply exist in perfect harmony with God. Its supposed to be ambiguous like that.
In heaven, there is no linear time. We live in Chronos, linear time, while God and Heaven are in Kairos, which isn't really time at all. It is a state of being in which everything that ever has occured has occured and everything in the future, from our Chronological death, has also occured. So, while you're in Heaven, humanity hasn't even begun, yet God has already given His final judgment on the earth. Its pretty complicated.

It is also very flawed as someone else said, how could anything on Earth ever be worth anything if when you die you know all that there is to ever know? In heaven your life is meaningless, because no matter what you did, when you get up there with the angels it is a part of the whole of knowing it all, how can life have meaning with that sort of finality. It's just a waste of time that leads to a sort of omniscience, a sort of disdain for the human condition, the doubt that is inherent in living ,life is more perfect than that banality. Shame on religous people for trying to contain heaven ,it's a waste of time, if it exists, you know jack s**t about it and you should keep quiet about your absurd notions of what it means.

EDIT: sorry I was thinking of the peanut butter thread and my self righteousness boiled over

 

[RameNoodle]

No, they haven't been unbaptized, those who are unbaptized go to hell.

Actually, this was recently changed. The Vatican recently deemed that it is possible for a baby that would have been baptized, but died prematurely to the actual event, also has a chance to go to Heaven.

Also, as I mentioned before, Heaven has no physicality whatsoever, and no linear time. In Heaven, you are simply a soul in perfect harmony with God. Also, once you are in Heaven, the earth hasn't even begun, and God has already passed the Final Judgement on all of humanity. That's what is called Kairos, God's time. This is how it is possible for one who was born before Jesus Christ to have all his sins forgiven, and therefore be allowed into Heaven. Jesus' death and Resurrection had already occured as a result of Kairos.

 

[.Shane.]

Dead sperm are not humans in anybody's theology.

Not true. If you look at Catholic attitudes toward birth control, its a logical extension.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Not true. If you look at Catholic attitudes toward birth control, its a logical extension.

It may be a logical extension in your mind, but I don't believe that any church has supported such a view.