Perfection
The Great Head.
I've known that my mind has played tricks on me, though I think I have the wisdom to look at them and reject them.
Question on heaven...
- Thread starter garric
- Start date
King Flevance said:
I could say that religion was of evolutionary benefit to small communities, bringing common purpose, moulding a cohesive unit could have given great benefit to early societies, even keeping them from dying out, Religion teaches us to understand death, nature and the need to remain true to ones people, to work together to survive, something with such far reaching implications could not help but be hard wired into our behavioural consciousness, just like the fight flight response or fear of heights. It's as easy to say this as it is to say God put it there, I can't prove either though.
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
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Heaven is the presence of God, who has infinite knowledge, wisdom and understanding. We were created in His image and our eternity in heaven will be spent growing more like him. We will grow in knowledge of everything. We will learn about what is real and true and good, seeing how these things are connected. To enter Heaven, we must admit that we are wrong and were wrong and have done wrong, and be willing to have these things corrected. Jesus came to pay for all these things, so that everything we had done could be forgotten. He made up for it. Those who live in Heaven have come to terms with their sin and decided that it will not be allowed to hinder them any more.
Hell is the denial of Heaven, and Hell has not a shred of reality about it. In Hell (will) dwell both the atheist who says "This is a dream! God doesn't exist! This will all disappear shortly!" and the christian who says "How dare you let those evil men into heaven when I was more pious than them!", both of them denying what is.
Limbo, or Purgatory, exists too. It's what you call Hell once you've left it. One can spend an arbitrary amount of time in Limbo trying to deny reality; then one comes to terms with God and enters Heaven.
Burning in flames? Well, if you really think you deserve it, fine. If you insist on flagellating yourself after death, and you sit in Hell denying that you can be forgiven, and that your sin must be atoned for by gross physical punishment, and flames and horned devils with pitchforks are your thing, sure. Delude yourself. The alternative is to accept that Jesus paid for everything you ever did wrong. You can repent, giving Him your sin to dispose of, and go to Heaven.
Entering Heaven requires you to give up all your sin. Pride is perhaps the hardest to lose, to say "I was wrong" with full sincerity. But you have Eternity to do it in.
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[THEOLOGICALLY NONVALIDATED OPINIONS AHEAD]
No and yes; heaven is the place of growing up.garric said:
That depends on whether there was a consciousness/person there at any point, and I am not getting into that discussion.
No; they'll get their mind back and more knowledge added on.
Well, Heaven is the ultimate reality and Hell is a (self-)delusion. To explain further:
Heaven is the presence of God, who has infinite knowledge, wisdom and understanding. We were created in His image and our eternity in heaven will be spent growing more like him. We will grow in knowledge of everything. We will learn about what is real and true and good, seeing how these things are connected. To enter Heaven, we must admit that we are wrong and were wrong and have done wrong, and be willing to have these things corrected. Jesus came to pay for all these things, so that everything we had done could be forgotten. He made up for it. Those who live in Heaven have come to terms with their sin and decided that it will not be allowed to hinder them any more.
Hell is the denial of Heaven, and Hell has not a shred of reality about it. In Hell (will) dwell both the atheist who says "This is a dream! God doesn't exist! This will all disappear shortly!" and the christian who says "How dare you let those evil men into heaven when I was more pious than them!", both of them denying what is.
Limbo, or Purgatory, exists too. It's what you call Hell once you've left it. One can spend an arbitrary amount of time in Limbo trying to deny reality; then one comes to terms with God and enters Heaven.
Burning in flames? Well, if you really think you deserve it, fine. If you insist on flagellating yourself after death, and you sit in Hell denying that you can be forgiven, and that your sin must be atoned for by gross physical punishment, and flames and horned devils with pitchforks are your thing, sure. Delude yourself. The alternative is to accept that Jesus paid for everything you ever did wrong. You can repent, giving Him your sin to dispose of, and go to Heaven.
Entering Heaven requires you to give up all your sin. Pride is perhaps the hardest to lose, to say "I was wrong" with full sincerity. But you have Eternity to do it in.
[END THEOLOGICALLY NONVALIDATED OPINIONS]
[TEN FOOT POLE MODE=OFF]
King Flevance
Deity
Sidhe said:
I understand what your saying Sidhe. I just find it simply that life has a benefit when God is included in a community. That isn't a big shock to me when he is put at the center for the "common good". The fact that science can explain it is simply because science is simply the study of how God works in our universe. That is my take on it though.
Why is to assume it is "accidental" more scientific?warpus said:
Is lack of evidence, evidence?
To call an event like your couch story a coincidence is to make a judgement about it based on zero evidence. That is not scientific. I would call the proximity of the two events (talking about a second couch and finding a second couch) "unexplained". That does not mean any supernatural forces were involved, nor does it mean that it was only an accidental or coincidental connection. A scientific minded person might call them coincidental, a Christian might say that it was god's hand in their life; a Hindu might attriobute it to karma. Who is correct? Is there any scientific evidence for any one being correct? Could all of them be incorrect and there be a yet to be discovered principle at work?
Or maybe there was even a direct cause and effect relationship going on. Your discussion of the couch was fresh in her mind as she left and therefore she noticed a couch on the sidewalk and said to her self "That would be perfect!" Had you not discussed your need for a couch she would not have noticed the couch at all and there would not have been an "unexplained" event at all.
All of this is to say that your labeling of such things as "coincidental" is as equally biased as a Christian attributing it to God.
Perfection said:
But it might not be wisdom to reject something if it isn't really your mind playing tricks on you.
Now, there have been several times when I was looking for someone/something for a long time with no luck, and getting frustrated. Then I would pray for help and find it within seconds. This is stretching what I can accept as coincidence but would not be alone enough to convince me to believe in God.
greenpeace
Peacelord
Um, warpus I tink that was a bit nasty of a comment. Anyway, It seems to me king Flefance that you are saying that everyone has a different path. My path however is extremely different from yours. How is it that God is in all paths when in my path, he doesn't exist, however, my path still attempts the same thing as yours- that is to purify the soul (I think even our conception of "purifying the soul is very different)? Why do you think it is that although you see God and Jesus I only hear my own thoughts as I meditate?
King Flevance
Deity
I would say that I believe that God has a "plan". I do not know what it is but I do believe it may be possible that in the plan, a different path may indeed lead you to the same place ultimately. Some christians, although I honestly forget which, believe that in the end God will allow everyone - including satan - into heaven. I personally, don't know about all of that as it sounds a bit rediculous, but then again I don't know the plan. I have studied a good assortments of faiths but the main 3 are pagan faiths, buddhism, and christianity.
Buddhism - I began studying this faith shortly after because of its usual depiction in stories of being able to journey to a spiritual plane. In pop culture a notion lies in Buddhism that it is possible to transcend the physical realm. In my studying I found that there is an underlying force of existance believed to be at the root of everything. I perceived this as God even though I am aware that the Buddhists do not. But many refer to it as "the closest thing to a God in Buddhism."
So even though Buddhism and Christianity are two different faiths, I do believe they parallel in many ways. Whereas Buddhists reflect inwards upon themselves by the teachings of Buddha, Christians reflect inwards and outwards of themselves by the teaching of Jesus. Our idea of how to purify the soul is different but also similar. I believe probably everything the Buddhists do to purify the soul is correct, but with the exception that Jesus plays no role in it. Now, this in my beliefs means that without Jesus the soul may only be purified to the extent of a human which is that it will never be a righteous purification. As I said before, I do not know the plan. I only know my role in it and there are even a few holes missing in that so far.
As to the final question in your post, I would say it is because when you meditate they are not included. Meditation is an act of turning your focus inwards which only leaves yourself if I understand it correctly. I may be missing the idea present in the question though also.
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Paganism - I began studying this faith because it outright addresses ghosts and spirits in many ways. The trick is having to run around in a lot of circles (I mean that metaphorically, forgive the pun) before finding what your looking for - if you even ever do. Basically, though in my studies in this area I learned an in depth look at symbolism and the amount of power behind symbols. It was and still is a very intriguing and touchy subject for me. Probably this was the most valuable aspect of I pulled out of looking into the pagan faiths.Buddhism - I began studying this faith shortly after because of its usual depiction in stories of being able to journey to a spiritual plane. In pop culture a notion lies in Buddhism that it is possible to transcend the physical realm. In my studying I found that there is an underlying force of existance believed to be at the root of everything. I perceived this as God even though I am aware that the Buddhists do not. But many refer to it as "the closest thing to a God in Buddhism."
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So even though Buddhism and Christianity are two different faiths, I do believe they parallel in many ways. Whereas Buddhists reflect inwards upon themselves by the teachings of Buddha, Christians reflect inwards and outwards of themselves by the teaching of Jesus. Our idea of how to purify the soul is different but also similar. I believe probably everything the Buddhists do to purify the soul is correct, but with the exception that Jesus plays no role in it. Now, this in my beliefs means that without Jesus the soul may only be purified to the extent of a human which is that it will never be a righteous purification. As I said before, I do not know the plan. I only know my role in it and there are even a few holes missing in that so far.
As to the final question in your post, I would say it is because when you meditate they are not included. Meditation is an act of turning your focus inwards which only leaves yourself if I understand it correctly. I may be missing the idea present in the question though also.
