Questions about Jews, Judaism and so on.

[jeps]

Just curious, but has it crossed your mind that the messiah that you await could be Jesus and could have already come?

Not in the least.

The Lord will return your captivity and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples whiter the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it (Deut. 30:3-5)

The Diaspora continues today, so the Messiah would not have come.

Furthermore, here are the characteristics of the messiah, as compiled by Maimonedes.

Ø Restore the throne of David
Ø Rebuild the Temple
Ø Gather the exiles
Ø Restore the Torah
Ø He will be a descendent of David
Ø He does not have to perform signs or wonders
Ø He will be a student of Torah
Ø He will force Israel to study Torah
Ø He will fight the wars of the Lord
Ø Elijah will come before Messiah
Ø The battle of Gog and Magog[6] will precede the day of Messiah
Ø Messiah will purify the priesthood and Levites
Ø Messiah will identify and accept those who are truly of Israel
Ø Messiah will identify the tribes of Israel
Ø In Messiah’s reign there will be no hunger or wars
Ø In Messiah’s reign the chief occupation on the earth will be the study of the Lord.

As we believe that is the role of the messiah, it contradicts with the fact that Jesus has already come and this did not happen.

 

[civ2]

jeps
I even wonder, HOW could anybody think that the real Messiah has come already - while we all still live in the world of such nonsense.
One of the prophecies about the Time of Moshiach is that "the world will be full with knowledge of God as waters cover the sea-bed" - aka aplenty.
But this is definitely not (YET) true - we can see this on this very forum.
Also, a VERY important thing (yeah, jeps said it already, but I wanna emphasize it MORE) - the Messiah does NOT have to do ANY miracles AT ALL!
He will be a NORMAL (though not so TYPICAL) human MAN, a Jew (and a RELIGIOUS ORTHODOX one ), who will become the literal king of the renewed Jewish monarchy, will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and gather all Jews (including the LOST ones) into Israel, while actively "promoting" Torah study by Jews and general knowledge about God by ALL humanity.
He will NOT convert all to Judaism (or any other "religion") - though non-Jews themselves will see the need to follow the Noahide Laws.
He will NOT (have to) do miracles (to "prove" himself).
He WILL usher in the times of REAL peace and OPEN Godliness in THIS world and for EVERYBODY.
LET IT BE TODAY!

Hmmm, WIKI has some about it too. Domination3000, scroll to the BOTTOM to see your answer by Maimonides (the REAL one, not a nick ).

 

[civ2]

Do I get to BUMP this thread, do I, do I???

 

[civ2]

BUMP.

 

[El_Machinae]

Moderator Action: Please do not bump threads. This is a form of spam. Threads rise and fall based on participation here.

 

[GhostWriter16]

I remember seeing it brought up in OT at one point, but does Judaism teach the existence of a Hell? And if so, who goes there?

 

[Joecoolyo]

From my own experience growing up and going to religious school, no.

But this is just anecdotal evidence, I'm not sure the official stance of most denominations (though I'm pretty sure it's a no, if Wikipedia is to be believed).

 

[NovaKart]

Wow, can we ask questions about Judaism now? Probably the religion I know least about.

 

[Joecoolyo]

I'm not sure Civ2 is still around though.

He was really religious, so a lot more knowledgeable than me

 

[NovaKart]

I just wondered what Jews think about people like Madonna who are into Kabbalah. My brother in law is Jewish and he said you're not supposed to read the Kabbalah unless you've studied the Torah for years and years. Do Jews think non-Jewish Kabbalah fans are co-opting their religion or whatever?

 

[Joecoolyo]

Yeah, my dad who's pretty religious has said stuff along those lines; that you're not supposed to be reading the Kabbalah unless you have had years of study with the torah.

As for non-Jews reading it, it beats me. I belong to a reform community (well, I'm non-religious, but I was brought up in one) and we were pretty lax about that type of stuff.

 

[Tahuti]

I'm not sure what Judaism says about Non-Jewish Kabbalists, to be honest, despite I have some Jewish ancestry myself; I think it is pretty likely that opinions widely vary among Jewish denominations.
What I do know about Kabbala - though Jewish in origin to be sure - has been popular outside of Judaism for probably centuries, so Madonna definitely wasn't even one of the first non-Jewish Kabbalists.
Occultists such as Aleister Crowley have embraced Kabbala, and used alongside Hindu influences, for example.

 

[civ2]

Joe
HI!!!
Yeah???
So how come this topic was found and revived then, if I'm not around to promote it?
(See my sig.)

On topic.
Dom
Shortly but firmly said.

Spoiler :

People have a misconception of Hell. Let me tell you what Hell really is. Hell is a spiritual place where everything that exists in our world exists, but in an infinite way. So, whatever you chased after in this world, there you do it ad infinitum.
And that's Hell.

Some more.

Spoiler :

The Baal Shem Tov taught that in the heavenly court there is no one who can judge you for what you have done in your life on earth. So this is what they do:
They show you someone’s life -all the achievements and all the failures, all the right decisions and all the wrongdoings -and then they ask you, “So what should we do with this somebody?”
And you give your verdict. Which they accept. And then they tell you that this somebody was you. Being now in heaven, you don’t recall a thing.
Of course, those who tend to judge others favorably have a decided advantage.
Better get in the habit now.

Afterlife.

Spoiler :

What is Heaven and Hell?
Heaven and hell is where the soul receives its punishment and reward after death. Yes, Judaism believes in, and Jewish traditional sources extensively discuss, punishment and reward in the afterlife (indeed, it is one of the "Thirteen Principles" of Judaism enumerated by Maimonides). But these are a very different "heaven" and "hell" than what one finds described in medieval Christian texts or New Yorker cartoons. Heaven is not a place of halos and harps, nor is hell populated by those red creatures with pitchforks depicted on the label of non-kosher canned meat.
After death, the soul returns to its Divine Source, together with all the G-dliness it has "extracted" from the physical world by using it for meaningful purposes. The soul now relives its experiences on another plane, and experiences the good it accomplished during its physical lifetime as incredible happiness and pleasure, and the negative as incredibly painful.
This pleasure and pain are not reward and punishment in the conventional sense--in the sense that we might punish a criminal by sending him to jail or reward a dedicated employee with a raise. It is rather that we experience our own life in its reality--a reality from which we were sheltered during our physical lifetimes. We experience the true import and effect of our actions. Turning up the volume on that TV set with that symphony orchestra can be intensely pleasurable or intensely painful,--depending on how we played the music of our lives.
When the soul departs from the body, it stands before the Heavenly Court to give a "judgment and accounting" of its earthly life. But the Heavenly Court only does the "accounting" part; the "judgment" part--that only the soul itself can do. Only the soul can pass judgment on itself--only it can know and sense the true extent of what it accomplished, or neglected to accomplish, in the course of its physical life. Freed from the limitations and concealments of the physical state, it can now see G-dliness; it can now look back at its own life and experience what it truly was. The soul's experience of the G-dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the "Garden of Eden"--i.e., Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinom ("Gehenna" or "Purgatory").
The truth hurts. The truth also cleanses and heals. The spiritual pain of gehinom--the soul's pain in facing the truth of its life--cleanses and heals the soul of the spiritual stains and blemishes that its failings and misdeeds have attached to it. Freed of this husk of negativity, the soul is now able to fully enjoy the immeasurable good that its life engendered and "bask in the Divine radiance" emitted by the G-dliness it brought into the world.

Hell and Satan.

Spoiler :

According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.
According to Torah, no spiritual force opposes G‑d. This includes Satan, who is a spiritual entity that faithfully carries out its divinely assigned task of trying to seduce people to stumble. Satan is also identified with the Prosecutor above -- that's what the word Satan itself means: it's just Hebrew for prosecutor -- who levels charges against the guilty party who succumbs to its wily arguments. Look in the beginning chapter of the Book of Job and you'll see that clearly.
In fact, the Talmud says, all that Satan does, he does for the sake of heaven. Without him, the defense attorney wouldn't bother to dig up all the merits of the defense. And the defense would have to try so hard to give himself more merits.
So you see that really nothing happens in the entire world without G-d approving.

Also about Kabbala.
To make it short: you don't start learning physics prior to learning maths.
(You can TRY, but would you UNDERSTAND???)

 

[Joecoolyo]

Hey civ2!

Welcome back!

 

[PeteAtoms]

Do you consider evil as a characteristic of God's nature? Or is God by definition ONLY good?

Euthyphro's Dilemma: is god good because it is good or is good defined by god's will?

EDIT: Actually that dilemma might not be relevant.

 

[civ2]

Pete
A very good answer.

Spoiler :

"See, I have placed before you blessing and curse." Thus opens this week's Torah reading of Re'eh (Deuteronomy 11:26-16:17), as Moses reiterates, once again, the doctrine of Free Choice.

Freedom of choice. Without which, as Maimonides reminds us, religion is meaningless, morality a non-concept, a Torah superfluous.

In fact, not only have we been granted a free choice between good and evil, but also the option of which level on which to make this choice. A choice of choices, if you will:

a) There is good and there is evil. Blessing and curse, light and darkness. G-d created both. We choose which of the two, or whichever combination thereof, shall define our existence.

b) In truth, there is only good. G-d is the source of all reality; and since G-d is the essence of good, only good is real. Just as there's no such thing as darkness--only light or its absence (which we call "darkness")--so too, there is only good or its absence. Or rather--since no place is devoid of His presence--good or its concealment. So the choice between good and evil is not a choice between two realities, but a choice between being and non-being, between reality and illusion.

c) Since "choice," by definition, is the free and uninhibited assertion of will; and since the intrinsic will of the human soul is for life and well-being; the only true choice there can be is the choice of good. But we have been granted freedom of choice, which means that we can choose not to choose; what we call "freedom of choice" is in fact the choice to exercise choice or to abnegate choice. When we do assert our true will--when we do choose--we invariably choose good.

Which is it--a, b, or c? That's up to you. That is the true meaning of "free choice": not that you may merely chose between two or more options presented to you by a higher authority, but that it is you who determines the level of reality upon which your conscious life unfolds. It is you who determines the distance between your life and its Source, and thus the form which "Free Choice" takes in your experience.

Choose your choice.

Another nice answer.

Spoiler :

Question:

Did G‑d create evil? Surely G‑d made everything. So although it is people who actually do evil, it was G‑d who must have created the idea of evil. But if G‑d is good, how could He create evil?

Answer:

Here's the paradox: Goodness exists because G‑d desired it; evil exists because G‑d doesn't want it.

If a human wants something, but doesn't actually do anything about it, nothing happens. You may want a piece of cake, but a cake will not materialize unless someone bakes it.

But when you're a Divine Being, your desires create reality. With G‑d, just wanting something makes it exist. After all, He is all-powerful; if He wants it, what can possibly stop it from being? He wanted a world, so it was. He wanted goodness, so it was.

Now the same applies to G‑d not wanting something: it too becomes reality. If G‑d decides He doesn't want something, then that decision itself makes that thing exist. G‑d's all-powerfulness means that even His not-wanting creates. Evil is what G‑d doesn't want. So it exists.

But evil doesn't exist in the same way that goodness exists. G‑d wants goodness, so its existence is true and everlasting. Evil exists as a negative, something G‑d doesn't want, so its existence is flimsy and temporal. Evil is no more than an undesirable non-entity, a path not to be taken. By doing evil acts, we give evil more credit than it deserves. Our bad choices make evil into a truer existence than it really is.

In the end, evil can't prevail. It is an unwanted ghost, a temporary illusion, a thin facade. Over time evil dissipates, no matter how menacing it may seem. Wicked empires crumble, rotten ideas become exposed, and goodness eventually shines through. That's what G‑d wanted all along, but He leaves it to us to achieve.

The only way to banish the ghost of evil is to turn on the light of good.

Quite important to read.

Spoiler :

Question:

I would be most interested in hearing your views regarding that dialogue of Plato's where Socrates argues (with Euthyphro, I think) that moral acts are not moral because the gods love them, rather the gods love moral acts because they are moral (the actual discussion is about piety). Contemporary philosophy has embraced Socrates' view. But I believe that the Torah view -- if I understand it correctly -- is that Socrates got it backward: What makes theft, etc., wrong isn't an intrinsic quality in the act that we as well as G-d can perceive. What makes theft wrong is that it is displeasing to G-d (or that G-d decided he doesn't want us to steal).

Answer:

The crux of it is that to Plato and Socrates, things are the way they are because they must be that way. Time and matter are necessary entities. The principles of Euclidean geometry are "self apparent truths" that could not be otherwise. This notion runs throughout Greek philosophy. And it is perhaps the central point of divergence with Jewish thought.

The Jewish G-d has free choice. He chose time and space. But He could just as well have chosen entirely other parameters. We can have absolutely no comprehension of what those parameters might be, since He did not choose them and therefore they never came to exist, even in concept. But there is nothing compelling about time and space in particular, or about the way they work, that compels their Creator to create them. And similarly with the rules of logic, causality, geometry, and, yes, ethics.

This is truly the concept behind the very first verse of the Torah, "In the beginning G-d created the heavens and the earth." As you know, in the Septuagint (the ancient Greek translation of the Bible), G-d makes heaven and earth -- because the Greeks simply didn't have a word for creation out of nothing. The idea to them was more than absurd -- it wasn't even in the lexicon.

But there's more: The active form of the verb (G-d created -- not "Heaven and earth came into being") implies that this was an act of volition. In fact, when the act of creation is describe as "And G-d said…", Nachmanides translates that as "And G-d willed…". Nothing had to be created. But He did create, so we are here.

Some more.

Spoiler :

In the words of our sages, "No evil descends from heaven" -- only two types of good. The first is a "blatant" and obvious good -- a good which can only be experienced as such in our lives. The other is also good, for nothing but good can "emerge from the Supernal One"; but it is a "concealed good," a good that is subject to how we choose to receive and experience it. Because of the free choice granted us, it is in our power to distort these heavenly blessings into curses, to subvert these positive energies into negative forces.

Insight.

Spoiler :

Darkness, no matter how ominous and intimidating, is not a thing or force: it is merely the absence of light.

So light need not combat and overpower darkness in order to displace it. Where light is, darkness is not. A thimbleful of light will therefore banish a roomful of darkness.

The same is true of good and evil: evil is not a thing or force, but merely the absence or concealment of good. One need not "defeat" the evil in the world; one need only bring to light its inherent goodness.

More.

Spoiler :

Perfection Does Not Come Easily

Our sages taught that G‑d created the world out of sheer benevolence. He wanted to bestow goodness upon humanity. Because He is perfect He wanted to bestow perfect goodness. In other words, G‑d wanted to bestow Himself.

He could have made a perfect world with people who emulate their Creator perfectly. But such people would have been a poor emulation of G‑d. They would not have been inherently good; their goodness would have been bestowed from Above. It would have been a borrowed perfection.

Thus G‑d created a world in which goodness and evil are equal options, and He created humanity with the freedom to choose. Our penchant for goodness is not greater than our proclivity for evil; we are evenly balanced. If we want to embrace goodness we must make a choice, and choices reflect who we are. We are not forced into goodness by powers beyond ourselves. We are moved by our choice, by an inner conviction that goodness is right. This inner resolve reflects the goodness within our souls and comes as close as humanity can possibly come to being inherently good.

G‑d did not create evil so that we could indulge it, but so that we could avoid it. If evil did not exist, choosing against it would not be possible, and perfection would slip from our grasp. That evil is a viable option makes it possible for us to choose against it and affirm our inherent goodness.

 

[GhostWriter16]

@Civ2- So basically, you forget your life, and have it shown to you, then you judge it, thinking it was someone else?

But what if your system of justice is totally warped. Say, Hitler. Say he is brought before God, and is shown himself, killing Jews. Hitler, of course, hates Jews, so he declares that he should be given the greatest reward imaginable. Does he get it?

Or what if the person is a "I have no right to judge" kind of person, so they, seeing their life (Whatever it may be) says: "God should do whatever he feels is best, I have no way to judge."

What happens to him?

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

when do you think the Messiah will come?

 

[Luckymoose]

@Civ2- So basically, you forget your life, and have it shown to you, then you judge it, thinking it was someone else?

But what if your system of justice is totally warped. Say, Hitler. Say he is brought before God, and is shown himself, killing Jews. Hitler, of course, hates Jews, so he declares that he should be given the greatest reward imaginable. Does he get it?

Or what if the person is a "I have no right to judge" kind of person, so they, seeing their life (Whatever it may be) says: "God should do whatever he feels is best, I have no way to judge."

What happens to him?

Pretty sure Hitler wouldn't have the same personality when judging his own life. That would make the system impossible.

 

[timtofly]

From the other thread, Moses would have to have heard from somewhere that to look upon G-d would have meant death. Now Moses was the first to "record" history, so it would have to be oral. I sorta understand the debate, but he did "see" the bush and approached it. He even talked to it. It was only at the point when G-d told him who He was that he looked away. To me that is the same as Adam hiding from G-d. Moses knew that he had killed a man. Could it be assumed that his "sin" is what made him look away? Moses was always looking down on himself, maybe because he was humble, or never felt worthy. At some point in time he had found out that he was "not" the son of Pharaoh, this must have had some emotional affect on him.

Why do scholars today think that Moses did not exist?