raging barbarians

[j_jimmy]

umm, an obvious new part of the june patch is ultra aggressive barbs and AI. I guess we are back to a war game now, which kind of sucks. I've always thought warmonger was the cheap way of exploiting the AI but it would seem there is no other start now than to start cranking units. I just started a game on emperor and on turn 11 there is a barb camp 4 tiles from my capital with two horsemen that killed my scout. and that is apparently par for the course for this patch.

 

[Kwami]

The patch fixed a bug that prevented Barbarian Outposts from spawning raiding parties. With the fix, Barbarians are back to the way they were before a previous patch broke them. You're supposed to kill the Scouts before they get back to their camps.

 

[j_jimmy]

The patch fixed a bug that prevented Barbarian Outposts from spawning raiding parties. With the fix, Barbarians are back to the way they were before a previous patch broke them. You're supposed to kill the Scouts before they get back to their camps.

so when a scout discovers you on turn 3 or 4 how are you killing that scout with your warrior?

 

[lotrmith]

so when a scout discovers you on turn 3 or 4 how are you killing that scout with your warrior?

By having a second warrior and/or not using your first warrior as a long range scout? You took that risk.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

It's a challenging mini-game to kill off various barb camps near home and on nearby islands (I've been playing Small Continents and 7 seas). But now I've had several games in a row where no new camps spawn *anywhere* for 150-ish turns. In my first game or two they spawned, but no more...?

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

It's one of the better parts of the game, for my tastes. Where and how you move your initial Warrior, how you adapt to what you encounter in terms of Barbarians, etc. It can be very tense and challenging and while there's definitely RNG, there's also an enjoyable learning curve to getting through this part of the game.

The challenge level presented by the early game, however, seems oddly disjointed with the rest of the game.

I feel like early barbarian camps can, in some circumstances, create Deity-level challenges when playing at Prince-level, whereas the mid- to late-game presents Prince-level challenges when playing at Deity-level.

 

[Naeshar]

I am also wrecked by the barbarians now. Honestly, moving two warriors to clear the camp only to have them BOTH killed by horsemen spawning every or every other turn... on t15... really? This is how it shall be? The AI is somehow unaffected, plunging through tech and civic tree and building settlers, while it used to be wrecked (by barbs) at prince - something feels wrong.

 

[kb27787]

The patch fixed a bug that prevented Barbarian Outposts from spawning raiding parties. With the fix, Barbarians are back to the way they were before a previous patch broke them. You're supposed to kill the Scouts before they get back to their camps.

They really need to fix the way barb camps spawn... as things are I lost count of how many times a camp just spawns one tile right outside your borders and so the "scout" does not even need to "get back" to their camp; they see your city immediately as they spawn next to the outpost.

Then you get barb swarms exactly the turn after that (on deity, at least--not sure if it is any different on lower difficulties). Even with a large army it is quite a struggle to get to multiple spots in time.
Hence, turned out those unemployed artists and writers as Russia have a job to do after all... they basically have to stand out in the tundra to give vision so that barb camps don't spawn close. Only way to prevent this is to deny vision.

By having a second warrior and/or not using your first warrior as a long range scout? You took that risk.

Uhh.. a 2nd warrior on turns 3-4? Even if you play on quick speed with the most amazing production and food heavy starts, that is simply not happening.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

The game is so fun when you have 7 or 8 barbarian units surrounding your capital around the time you can finish building your first slinger.

 

[pkaem]

Well it's less killing the scout, it's more blocking it to prevent line of sight to your city. Sure you can have bad luck but if you do, put your unit between camp and scout. What is much more annoying than the raids, ia the fact that scout movement is so unpredictable. Some times they steal my worker or settler, some times they ignore it. But OP is right in some cases. Opening slingers/warriors and craftmenship into archery is a safe bet, and you are already down the path to an early rush if there is a suitable target. I prefere greedy early plays and don't like if there are too high oportunity cost if you don't.

E: stop settling on your plains hills all the time, scouts won't get los in many cases.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

The game is so fun when you have 7 or 8 barbarian units surrounding your capital around the time you can finish building your first slinger.

For what it's worth, I'd never recommend building an early Slinger. It's much safer to get an extra Warrior or two out first, then build a Slinger to get the Archery boost once you already have your city well defended. Slingers just don't cut it for early game protection.

Also, barbarians won't take your capital, although that's cold comfort if they bottle you up before you can get a settler out to found your second city.

Speaking of which, the best defence for your capital is a second city 3 hexes away. Which pushes you into a relatively rigid Warrior-Warrior-Builder-Settler build order that leaves a Scout as a luxury. And back to my prior post, that seems contrary, to me, to the whole idea behind Prince- or lower level games, which shouldn't offer that much danger early on. I think it's perfectly fine for Immortal+ games, but they're not really much more difficult (adds the risk of early Warrior rush, but you handle that the same way you handle early Barbarians, so what's changing for the most part is the % chance that you lose because you didn't go W-W-B-S to start).

 

[lotrmith]

Uhh.. a 2nd warrior on turns 3-4? Even if you play on quick speed with the most amazing production and food heavy starts, that is simply not happening.

That’s pretty standard, yeah. Warrior first unless you’re risky and do scout first.

 

[lotrmith]

For what it's worth, I'd never recommend building an early Slinger. It's much safer to get an extra Warrior or two out first, then build a Slinger to get the Archery boost once you already have your city well defended. Slingers just don't cut it for early game protection.

Also, barbarians won't take your capital, although that's cold comfort if they bottle you up before you can get a settler out to found your second city.

Speaking of which, the best defence for your capital is a second city 3 hexes away. Which pushes you into a relatively rigid Warrior-Warrior-Builder-Settler build order that leaves a Scout as a luxury. And back to my prior post, that seems contrary, to me, to the whole idea behind Prince- or lower level games, which shouldn't offer that much danger early on. I think it's perfectly fine for Immortal+ games, but they're not really much more difficult (adds the risk of early Warrior rush, but you handle that the same way you handle early Barbarians, so what's changing for the most part is the % chance that you lose because you didn't go W-W-B-S to start).

Why Builder before Settler? I find that your population rarely supports working 3 improved tiles that early. I almost always go Settler into Builder because I can pump other civics before Craftsmanship and the tech boosts from your first quarry/pasture/farm/etc are for techs that are a ways off. The first Settler practically gets your population point back in the capital almost immediately then plops down a city which starts working 2 additional tiles in your empire and starts growing to help you boost Early Empire.

 

[Troy Bruckner]

For what it's worth, I'd never recommend building an early Slinger. It's much safer to get an extra Warrior or two out first, then build a Slinger to get the Archery boost once you already have your city well defended. Slingers just don't cut it for early game protection.

Also, barbarians won't take your capital, although that's cold comfort if they bottle you up before you can get a settler out to found your second city.

Speaking of which, the best defence for your capital is a second city 3 hexes away. Which pushes you into a relatively rigid Warrior-Warrior-Builder-Settler build order that leaves a Scout as a luxury. And back to my prior post, that seems contrary, to me, to the whole idea behind Prince- or lower level games, which shouldn't offer that much danger early on. I think it's perfectly fine for Immortal+ games, but they're not really much more difficult (adds the risk of early Warrior rush, but you handle that the same way you handle early Barbarians, so what's changing for the most part is the % chance that you lose because you didn't go W-W-B-S to start).

I know they can't take your capital and that is half the reason I build a slinger first since it lets me kill the barbarian horde faster than a warrior. That and I like having 3 archers early.

 

[steveg700]

Barbs are real wimps in my Emperor games. I can usually wipe out a camp with a warrior before reinforcements are spawned.

 

[Sostratus]

They could perhaps tie the number of waves spawned by camps when they've alerted by a scout down if you're on a lower difficulty.

But overall I think the biggest RNG variance is horse barbs. The range is like within 4 tiles of a horse tile, which you cannot see right away - that's a huge area. First of all I think that range should be much reduced - horse barb camps should need to be within 1 or 2 tiles, to make them more rare and also easier to play around. The horsemen are so mobile that you don't have time to prepare a defense. I've never had an issue with the horse archers. The worst part is when those horsemen upgrade from 20 to 36 strength. (Happens fast on high difficultly.) Ouch. It doesn't help that spears are pretty useless in this endeavor since they can spawn horsemen faster than you can build spears, the 36 horses beat spears 1v1, and they can just gallop around your troops.

I get it. Horse camps are supposed to be dangerous. But they are a little abusive in the opening turns, especially when a player doesn't even know where the horses are. It's not that I don't want that kind of challenge from barbarians, just that it their presence takes things from 0 to 100 real quick.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Why Builder before Settler? I find that your population rarely supports working 3 improved tiles that early. I almost always go Settler into Builder because I can pump other civics before Craftsmanship and the tech boosts from your first quarry/pasture/farm/etc are for techs that are a ways off. The first Settler practically gets your population point back in the capital almost immediately then plops down a city which starts working 2 additional tiles in your empire and starts growing to help you boost Early Empire.

Yes, Settler before Builder is probably even better. I think I got in the habit of Builder first because:
(a) the extra yield from the first and sometimes second Builder charge quickens the time to finish the Settler
(b) on rare occasions you can sell an improved luxury
(c) the Builder's last charge is an emergency chop in case of an attack (hugely suboptimal because now you need a second Builder which you'll probably end up buying with gold)

But I'd agree, Builder first is likely weaker on average than getting your first Settler out, and often the use of the third charge is delayed anyway.

 

[kb27787]

They could perhaps tie the number of waves spawned by camps when they've alerted by a scout down if you're on a lower difficulty.

But overall I think the biggest RNG variance is horse barbs. The range is like within 4 tiles of a horse tile, which you cannot see right away - that's a huge area. First of all I think that range should be much reduced - horse barb camps should need to be within 1 or 2 tiles, to make them more rare and also easier to play around. The horsemen are so mobile that you don't have time to prepare a defense. I've never had an issue with the horse archers. The worst part is when those horsemen upgrade from 20 to 36 strength. (Happens fast on high difficultly.) Ouch. It doesn't help that spears are pretty useless in this endeavor since they can spawn horsemen faster than you can build spears, the 36 horses beat spears 1v1, and they can just gallop around your troops.

I get it. Horse camps are supposed to be dangerous. But they are a little abusive in the opening turns, especially when a player doesn't even know where the horses are. It's not that I don't want that kind of challenge from barbarians, just that it their presence takes things from 0 to 100 real quick.

If you think that's bad, you need to see a courser camp (44 combat strength) spawn on deity sometime in medieval. If you don't have heathen conversion and they spawn right next to your borders... Ouch...

 

[kb27787]

Yes, Settler before Builder is probably even better. I think I got in the habit of Builder first because:
(a) the extra yield from the first and sometimes second Builder charge quickens the time to finish the Settler
(b) on rare occasions you can sell an improved luxury
(c) the Builder's last charge is an emergency chop in case of an attack (hugely suboptimal because now you need a second Builder which you'll probably end up buying with gold)

But I'd agree, Builder first is likely weaker on average than getting your first Settler out, and often the use of the third charge is delayed anyway.

Unlike your capital your 2nd city is not immune to barbs you know... The builder there is for fast agoge since the days of vanilla. It is still a good option.

 

[acluewithout]

The raging barbarians are fun. I don’t think they need to be toned down really.

But the more I have to fight off wave after wave, it does annoy me how one dimensional they are.

I don’t need barbarians to start spawning free cities or any of that nonsense, but it would be fun if I could absorb them into my Civ or buy them off with gold, or even just feel like they’re attacking me for something I did rather than just because “barb camp spawned within 10 tiles”.