Ramesses in Diplo Hell (Deity)

Oke, played 5 turns with your advice and lots of stuff happened. I guess making 1 spoiler with all screenies should work better.

Spoiler :


Changed city micro pretty much like you suggested, running slider @ 100% all time. Build another missionary for Memphis though.

Teched Aesthetics and finished random GP for golden age in Nidaros.



Switched into Paci even before GP arrived (Spiritual) and started golden age. Finished spears. Was thinking about this trade (he didn't want to give any other tech without putting beakers in it first), but didn't do, because

a) Toku already thinks I am too advanced and I want to trade Metal Casting or something from Mao soon
b) Thought about switching HC into other stuff, but it might actually help him because he is building Taj Mahal. So did nothing, next turn HC got Aesthetics from someone else :( ... he had 0 gold, should I have done something?



Ragnar finally made peace... he wanted cheapest tech for it.



Next turn he vassals to Mao .....



I went Drama -> Music, nobody on this continent had Music yet, but I wasn't first. Sold Calendar to Ragnar for 80 gold, now he is pleased and will trade stuff... Tech situation looks like this. What trades should I make here? :). Music for Metal Casting from HC last?



Also tracked HC's teching path. He didn't start Education yet. Instead he went Engineering and Theology, I think he is going for Divine Right (religion not gone yet~)



Golden age is in full swing, GS for Lib bulb almost done. Working on 2 Great Merchants.



Hmm, worked out okay I think?

Decision on who to attack first should be made now, maybe? If I go for Mao I could tell Toku to stop trading with Mao now. Keep them at "pleased" so I can bring Toku as war ally later? :)
 

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Yup that looks much more relaxed already ;)
Will be all on Cuirs deciding Ramsies fate soon, i have no doubts you will get there just fine now.

Actually that's awesome with HC trading Natio lol, trading Edu to advanced AIs is very good and you get just what we want.
He has no chance getting Lib vs. your bulb.

Edu + Music (works out perfectly) for Natio & gold this turn already imo.
1 turn into Lib, 1 turn Gunpowder, bulb & finish Lib.

Why do i think giving him Edu works well (besides speeding you up greatly), it's giving him even more tech choices that distract from Rifling.

Yep Toku & Mao are not trading many techs, oh well it's no biggie if we can get huge techs like Natio instead.
Please note that all 4 of these guys have the highest "we fear you are becoming too advanced" setting, so you should trade Natio first and not worry about small trades.

Then if somebody still trades, you can backfill a bit with stuff like Construction & Monarchy from Rags.

Oh you are right about MC, so it's that instead of Gunpowder sorry :)
Hmm let me look again lol.
Think i would still trade for Natio now, MC self tech and with overflow from it you probably can do Lib in 1 turn with your bulb. May want to put everything on research for that now.

Trading for useful small techs from Rags is more than fine, yup.

I think that trade embargo would not do much, Toku is not friendly with them and will not trade.
But since you could get 170 gold too..why not :)

Are you planning for a 2nd GM from Memphis?
In this case i would give copper to Elephant, and hire another merchant :)

Have to leave for some work, good luck ~~
 
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Ah ok, trading for Nationalism is interesting. Might want to hurry with Lib yup, Mansa is on the other continent if I read the demographics thingy right on Turn 1 (I uploaded starting save) :)

Last big question is, who to attack? Because I could prepare Diplo for that now. Then I will play until MT is in :).

Also I need Metal Casting to bulb Lib :/ and only HC will trade.

HC is friendly though, he will trade Nati always. The other guys are only @ pleased :(

Trade for Construction / Horseback Riding from the other guys?
Trade Embargo vs China?

Or not give them anything so they fall behind?
 
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BtW, Why cannot you trade with Toku? If WFYBTA then he should be in top 3 in scoreboard. Probably it mean not 5 persons, but 7. Which means that other continent should be kind of backward. Is it right?

I also played a couple of turn, Ragnar vassaled Mao too.

Another question - is it worth to spread religion among AIs (Taosism for example) and try to ask them to switch religion. Hence they could start to hate each other.
 
I think WFYBTA has not much to do with scoreboard? Just someone like Toku hits the limit fast I think.

Spreading religion like that sounds like too many hammers. Better convert them to your religion with some Cuirs :)

So I played a few turns. Made trades, won Lib, picked MT ... Gunpowder in a few turns, but I will probably build some war elephants in Police State before that and wait for GM to upgrade. Cuirs are expensive and I need tons of guys.

Also I devised an evil plan for war, feedback appreciated~

Spoiler :






Written version:

Target is Mao... he has 11 cities + Ragnar 4 cities (vassal) ... so in a scenario like this, you take out the vassal or not? I want to take the 2 non-hill cities from Ragnar, would help a lot with culture (I lost most tiles for Nidaros suddenly oO)... and if he breaks free I can vassal him :).

But this requires more forces. Need to kill Mao SoD aswell ... this will delay attack a bit, 11 cities can produce lots of units. I could attack from behind with 10+ guys (entering through HC territory), confuse him a bit. But need even more troops for something like this.

In total, I want at least 30 Cuirs before attacking? And I will bribe Toku, he will certainly provide a useful war ally (lol) ... at least he won't be bribed against me this way.

Discuss?? :) not sure about priorities here. Maybe I should take the 30 Cuirs and make a beeline for Mao's capital? Leave Raggy alone since he will break free anyway?

What to doo?
 

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@BornInCantaloup

Your game is looking good. When I saw the neighbours I thought it is a case of "hit them before they hit you", but your diplo looks quite safe. Certainly something different here, think I can follow the tech order and city placement from the save quite well.

Think you go with Macemen+Trebs (or even Catapults?) quite often, at least I have seen a few games now. Does that play more comfortable in some cases? If you balance economy+warfare right, it should be quite good. The earlier you snowball the better I suppose. Sometimes I feel like I am giving the momentum away by attacking only at cannons. Especially when there is a runaway civ on some other continent. It is rather slow after all.

Would be curious to see how it goes from here. Not necessarily a victory screen, but a save from somewhere around 800 AD would be quite interesting. Where will your economy be and will the new cities contribute something in time? etc.
 
I think WFYBTA has not much to do with scoreboard? Just someone like Toku hits the limit fast I think.

It matters! :) I told recently that I did some tests. So, if 7 players and if you are number 4-7 then rule WFYBTA applied only when you trade with those who are in positions 1-3. I am 99% that this rule works like I described. This means if you are in positions 1-3 of 7 then WFYBTA applied to all AIs when you trade with them. In other other words - any two who has positions 4-7 can trade with each other unlimitedly (however WFYBTA counter will still increase and will appear only someone gets high enough score).

To confirm this I loaded your save, entered worldbilder And looked at the scoreboad. Then I made cities of some AI big enough, so Toku can drop in his score below this AI. In the same turn I could trade with Toku ;)

So, this theory estimates that Toku is number 3 in score (rule WFYBTA take into account initial number of player, so it doesn't matter whether someone is unmet or dead). However...I don't know how this informtation can help you in this particular game:) On the other hand, it actually can be useful on Continent maps 3 vs 4 (e.g. to predict how fast AI can get Lib before you) .
 
Target is Mao... he has 11 cities + Ragnar 4 cities (vassal) ... so in a scenario like this, you take out the vassal or not? I want to take the 2 non-hill cities from Ragnar, would help a lot with culture (I lost most tiles for Nidaros suddenly oO)... and if he breaks free I can vassal him :).

But this requires more forces. Need to kill Mao SoD aswell ... this will delay attack a bit, 11 cities can produce lots of units. I could attack from behind with 10+ guys (entering through HC territory), confuse him a bit. But need even more troops for something like this.

In total, I want at least 30 Cuirs before attacking? And I will bribe Toku, he will certainly provide a useful war ally (lol) ... at least he won't be bribed against me this way.

I like idea attacking from back and trying to take 2 big cities. However, then it looks like these curis will be out of game for a while. Also I played that time up to MT...I though may be I could fast enough to break Mao, but when I saw thos hordes of protective longbows then quit even without declaring a war :lol: Looks like it can be quite painful. May by cannons can be better then? On the other hand...with 20+10 start the war then wipe Ragnar as much as you can and then try tactical defencive war against Mao and his SoD? Probably it could require at leats 25 full cuirs. And also he has pikes. Anyway, I beleive you :) I think that Toku war against Viki was more difficult.
 
Not sure about delaying gunpowder, Cuirs are inexpensive with forge + ps ~~
Maybe 10h more than HAs on much earlier rushes, and cities are now much better of course.
Gold will also be valuable later if you tech towards Cavs.

I would really want catapults here :)
Mao will most likely throw his stack NE of Bjorgvin (nice city for getting some now with chops, or the Jumbos for upgrading?).
Some collateral damage would make it soft & saver for your Cuirs.
Dito on Haitabu, an annoying but useful city with it's farmed floodplains for whipping.
Much easier with some Cats softing up.

With that plan, i would not move around their borders.
Take out their annoying stuff with Cats help, then capture Rags cities.
They all have very nice food and / or size for whipping reinforcements (cept silver city, worth ignoring that).
Avoiding long borders is good, you can cease fire once you reached your goals of adding Rags cities & destroying Mao's stack.
And then prepare for taking his close cities.

Oh and happy new year in advance :)
 
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Well, it is 800 AD, I have 31 Cuirs, some catapults and ready to declare this turn.

Tech looks like this. Hmm. Guess I could take Mao and then need to start teching again. I whip everything and it's hard to reach Rifling while in war (need Rep and stuff). Will see how it goes :)

Spoiler :






And Mao started plotting anyway, probably on me. So he is pumping units. Will be really painful. A bit scared :).

Actually I am not sure I can do this :D. I don't go Cuirs usually. Only 2-3x in my last 50 games on Deity :D

Thanks for advice and happy new year to you too :)
 

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Redki-rr said:
It matters! :) I told recently that I did some tests. So, if 7 players and if you are number 4-7 then rule WFYBTA applied only when you trade with those who are in positions 1-3. I am 99% that this rule works like I described. This means if you are in positions 1-3 of 7 then WFYBTA applied to all AIs when you trade with them. In other other words - any two who has positions 4-7 can trade with each other unlimitedly (however WFYBTA counter will still increase and will appear only someone gets high enough score).

This is interesting :) will try to use this sometimes in games.

War is going not so good by the way. Killed like 50 chinese units and couldn't take a single city from Mao yet lol. HC has 3x my score but ok that is because of whip. Took 3 cities from Ragnar.......

I hate Cuirs. Every time I lose a 70% battle a part of my soul dies violently. Will post a more detailed write-up tomorrow. Don't know how you kill a 45-unit-SoD sitting in city with Cuirs though. Mao didn't move it out, he just sat in his city. It's like a human defending, just luck but it caused lots of problems.

If we win this war I will sacrifice half my (remaining) population to build a new Pyramids for Lain II.



Don't overlook the freaking elephants, too.

Happy new year to everyone ;)
 

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Hmm sorry that you are not enjoying it, i think that shows.
If i had time earlier i would have suggested giving Rags Edu for Machinery + Feuda, i guess it's true what i used saying:
Cuirs are more strategic than cannons or so (why i like them).

But if you play afraid of losses, it's no fun.
Wish i could give better advice, but i wonder if we are just "forcing" you thru something.
It's also affecting me, i cannot think about good tipps for wars you dislike.
 
Noo I wasn't 100% serious, Cuirs are oke and I want to win with them when there is a good opportunity like here. Just met some serious problems it seems :).

Not sure the war is winnable now. But I think I can take Shanghai now and maybe with domino effect I can capture half of China. Then take Toku -> 20+ cities. Maybe the game is still winnable like that?

I will try. No way I am giving up yet~ :). Wonder what I did wrong though, doesn't look very good now.

Yup should have taken stuff from Ragnar for Education, somehow didn't think of it. He has 1 city left... I would have hoped he breaks free and I vassal him by now.
 
War is going not so good by the way. Killed like 50 chinese units and couldn't take a single city from Mao yet lol. HC has 3x my score but ok that is because of whip. Took 3 cities from Ragnar.......

I told you that I was scared of those protective Chinese that quit immediately. :lol::blush: Should you try to go deep into his territory, capture several week defended cities and then ask for a peace? Those protective longbows are very annoying against Cuirs, especailly when AI has so many of them. So, I wish a lot of good luck for you :king: And I wish you eventually win this game as several others. :thumbsup:

Happy New Year to everyone. :)
 
In terms of diplo, Ragnar is easy to be a good friend and China/Japan plots war at pleased. Will this thought change the progress of the whole game?
Spoiler :
I played till T71 with 6 cities, 5 granaries and 3 barracks, preparing the war to attack somebody. Bronze will be connected soon for 2pop axe whip. China is still in the expansion mode while Ragnar is training units. China and Japan does not know each other, so I may attack China in my game as there's no diplo risk. In that case, it's not bad to gift a city to Ragnar.
I may use a GS to bulb maths and research construction myself.
 

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So here is how the war went until the bitter end ;)

Spoiler :


I declared on Mao with ~30 Cuirs and bribed in Toku. Mainly so he won't be bribed against me. Not expecting much help.



I sacrifice a worker the AI can't resist and Mao moves part of his stack on flat grassland to grab him. I clean it up.



The problem: His main stack is still sitting in Shanghai and doing nothing... so I retreat and wait for it to reach me. Going past it to attack other cities seems like a bad idea, he would wipe me out and I couldn't hold a city in his mainland without reinforcements. Ragnar's territory also stops me from launching an attack in the north to maybe get the stack moving towards me.



Again he moved part of it into my territory and I killed it. But few turns later he still has this in Shanghai: 45 units. No way you punch through this with Cuirs.



So I decided to sacrifice Bjorgvin, my city, hoping his stack captures it next turn.



Aaaand he did take it, but again he didn't use all his units. I attacked and left 1 defender alive, so he would reinforce. He did that. In the course of 3-4 turns he moved his stack in parts into the city and I killed it slowly.





After having one of his stacks wiped out earlier, Toku moves new troops through my territory. I direct them to Shanghai.



In the north, I have been fighting against the Vikings, here taking his 3rd city. Now he only has one left. I expect him to break free and beg from HC to avoid interturn-peacevassal. But Ragnar doesn't break free. No city from Mao captured yet, but now I can threaten his northern cities.

However, at this point HC has 3x my score, Mao 2x my score and while score doesn't matter too much, it basically means that this war has to be a success or game over pretty much.



Trading some stuff with a friendly Toku to stay in the game.



I capture the last city from Ragnar and he is wiped out, for whatever that's worth. Silver+Whales are nice though, cities start to hurt from unhappiness.



Still some heavy defenses in Shanghai. I have a plan though...



Tech situation, at least Mao is slowed down somewhat it seems.



I waited for Toku to bombard Shanghai's defenses and suicide his stack. I protect his guys with ~25 Cuirs.



While waiting, I didn't sleep though and moved out in the north. Toku's stack should stop Mao's from leaving Shanghai.





I even dared to sneak past Shanghai in the south (estimating that Toku needs 4-5 turns to bombard Shanghai before attacking. So meanwhile I took an important city from Mao. At this point I have about 60 Cuirs.



After Toku finally attacks, the big cleanup starts.





Meanwhile Cathy makes contact. I trade with her, since the last civ should be Mansa (or Hammurabi?) I don't care about "worst enemy trade". I need stuff now.





Next I move towards Mao's capital, combining the stack from the north with veterans from the Shanghai slaughter. Was as painful as it looks.





Next I prepare for taking two big cities on the same turn...





And finally, Mao is ready to capitulate.



Tech picture looks like this. I think the age of Cuirs is over.



So what do I do with my 70 Cuirs now? :D I need to tech Communism and Biology badly. Start teching again. Declaring on Toku now doesn't seem like a good idea, I don't want to know how many troops he has. And super-rifles in a few turns.

 

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Interesting game so far, very clever how you controlled Mao's units in terms of movement and gave yourself a better chance to take them out bit by bit. I know stuff like this is pretty standard for deity players, just not something I ever do...

Not sure if I missed you mention it earlier, but what VC are you aiming for? HC is looking pretty dodgy over their with all that land which he probably cottaged to hell.
 
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