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Rank the UBs!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by MilesBeyond, Dec 15, 2011.

  1. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    1 food does not support a cottage, but 1/2 a specialist I can agree with.

    Technically the other UB that affects food is the granary, which is exceeding powerful.
    The Baray bonus is applied to a weak building that carries a high :hammer: cost.
     
  2. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Fantastic:
    Ikhanda (-maintenance, cheap, easily available)
    Sac Altar (Whip it, and it's cheaper)
    Rathaus (-maintenance)
    Terrace (Grainaries are needed and can take the place of a monument, possible to capture enemy city's one for instant culture)


    Great:
    Hammam (Happiness and health!)
    Baray (Food is rare on a building)
    Ziggurat (Available sooner)
    Dike
    Mint (Forges are common enough of a build)

    Good:
    Stock Exchange (You need them for wall street)
    Hippodrome (Default Theatre does not give happiness without culture slider. This does, and gets boosted more.)
    Ball Court (More happiness out of a normally meh building)
    Ger (A UB that has synergy with a UU!)
    Shale Plant (If you don't have coal... or trade away your coal. This also makes it possible for your national park city to have power without using a hydro/nuclear power plant. Obscure possibility, but it is there)
    Cothon
    Trading Post (Situational)
    Odeon (Culture is nice)
    Seowon (Boosted Universities sounds like a good idea.

    Ok:
    Citadel (It's too bad it obsoletes with economics and placed awkwardly on the tech tree, but it definitely has use)
    Apothecary (mm... health, meh, but not too horrific)
    Garden (I'd rather have more happiness than health, but meh, again)
    Madrassa/Obelisk-- (Priests have their uses, but a bit underwhelming. I'd put the obelisk a bit higher since it's so cheap. Unless you're Hatty, which you have less use for it)
    Totem Pole
    Salon (Culture pressure is nice)
    Mausoleum (If you remember to actually build jails)


    Meh:
    Research Institute (Well, you'll build it anyways if you're building the base building, but too damned late)
    Steele (Very specialized for culture pressure or wins)
    Mall (Actaully decent, but too damned late)
    Forum (Extra GPP just never seems to add up considering the base building)
    Dun (Gorillas are good on hills)


    Trash:
    Feitoria (Better version of a terrible building...)
    Assembly Plant (2 more engineer SLOTS this late in the game?)
     
  3. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    :lol:

    Depending on when you win, any UB can be "too late". As it is, the research institute is basically a free great library in every city. That's awesome.
     
  4. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Granary isnt' a UB, though. It's a BB (basic building)

    I agree, that 1 food doesnt' supprot a cottage.

    It's a cottage instead of a farm. or a mine instead of a windmill, a workshop instead of a watermill.

    But yeah - it's not a great base building.
     
  5. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    People find the Great Library awesome because it gives them a research boost when they still have only 4 cities and a lot of GPP points. The research institute does neither because it comes so late, Gp's have decreased in value and increased in cost.
     
  6. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    The only time I ever saw use for the Baray and hammers to build it was when I spawned at the border of an enormous desert with floodplains and a jungle which covered half the world. I was, very coincidentally, playing the Khmer. Although I was expansive, I still had need for health (due to large growth and unhealth from terrain) so I built them.
    But I can't remember a situation in another game where unhealth was so universal.
     
  7. mtr12

    mtr12 Prince

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    Barays are pretty beast because of the Food bonus. Not as good as Sac Altar/Hammam/Rathaus and stuff, but still solid.
     
  8. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    But you will most likely have representation by then, which will give+6 beakers.
    And the mall is sorta useless as in the late game your issue is health and not happiness.

    Fantastic:
    Sacrificial Altar
    Rathaus
    Terrace
    Ikhanda
    Cothon
    Dike
    Hammam

    Good:
    Madrassa
    Mint
    Pavilion
    Odeon
    Shale plant
    Stock Exchange
    Obelisk

    OK:
    Salon
    Stele
    Mausoleum
    Baray
    Trading post
    Hippodrome
    Feitoria
    Research institute

    Crap:
    Assembly Plant
    Totem pole
    Mall
    Forum
    Apothecary
    Garden
    Dun
     
  9. Ataxerxes

    Ataxerxes Deity

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    Akbar has a pretty decent list. But Fietoria doesn't belong anywhere but Crap. I actually don't mind the Apothecary and Garden. I always seem to be fighting Health at some point in the game.
     
  10. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Terrace
    Ikhanda
    Sacrificial Altar
    Rauthaus

    Trading posts- the Viking UB (very map-specific)
    Mint
    Apothecaries (good late game UB)
    Forum
    Everything else.
     
  11. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    The value of the research institute isn't the GPP; it's the science provided.

    A research institute provides a +25% boost to science. It's prerequisite provides a +25% boost to science. Assuming you're running your science slider at 0% and your city has no other science modifiers or things that provide free beakers (i.e., a scientist or UoS boosted religious building), a research institute provides 9 base beakers. If you were running representation, you'd get a base 18 beakers per turn from a research institute. If you had 10 cities and built a research institute in all of them, you'd get-- at the very least-- an extra 90 beakers per turn w/o representation; with it, you'd get an extra 180 beakers. More often than not, you'll find that building a research institute in all of your cities can provide you with a boost of, at least, 300 beakers on a normal sized map once you factor in stuff like trade routes, libraries, universities, Oxford and how high you're running your science slider. That's quite a lot research provided.

    In many instances, it's enough to power you past the AI. At least, I've found that to be my experience up to immortal, anyway.
     
  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    So does the Lab it replaces....so what is the point? The primary value of Labs is to boost production of space parts. Labs will only be built in high prod cities to build parts. The science boost t is negligible at this point in the game. By the time you get Labs you're already building parts anyway.

    The RI is a very marginal UB with a very marginal value (over base) for only a single victory condition

    I'd estimate approximately 85% of Russian games one would never build the RI unless you are a space nut.
     
  13. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    If you read his post at all, you sure didn't address his actual point.

    +Base beakers > multipliers
     
  14. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    nah...i'm pretty sure i did
     
  15. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    A laboratory does not provide any free scientists, meaning no base beakers.

    The primary value of the research institute is to BOOST RESEARCH, as I said.

    No, it's not. Did you not read my post? If you were to build a research institute in all of your cities, using representation, you would get, at the very least, an extra 18 base bpt per city before adding in any other multipliers.

    Again, think of this. By the time you're able to build research institutes, you should have around ten cities. If you had ten cities, you could set your research slider to zero and, by building a research institute in all ten of your cities and running representation, you would generate 180 bpt without any other modifiers being added. If, for fun, you were to build a library and a university in each of those cities, you would generate 240 bpt. If you were to set your research slider to zero and build a laboratory in all of your cities, you still would generate zero bpt. Not to be confrontational, but you really do not know what you're talking about. Imagine the following three cities.

    City #1: 80 base bpt + Library + University + Observatory + Laboratory = 160 bpt

    City #2: 80 base bpt + Library + University + Observatory + research institute (w/o rep) = 172 bpt

    City #3: 80 base bpt + Library + University + Observatory + research institute (w/ rep) = 184 bpt

    City #2 generates 7.5% more bpt than does city #1 while city #3 is generating a 15% more bpt than city #1. I don't find that to be negligible. As an added bonus of the research institute, you can turn a city producing very few beakers (>10) into a city which produces between 30 and 40 bpt with very little effort.

    You shouldn't be. If this is the case, then you need to retweak your tech path. Satellites, composites, ecology, fiber optics, fusion, superconductors and genetics are the techs which allow you to build spaceship parts. Superconductors also allows you to build the research institute.

    Satellites requires rocketry and radio.
    Composites requires plastic and satellites.
    Ecology requires fission or plastics.
    Fiber optics requires computers or the laser.
    Fusion requires fission and fiber optics.
    Superconductors requires either refrigeration or computers (computers is the longer tech path).
    Genetics requires superconductors.

    If you're going to a space race victory, you generally want to go on a computer beeline, which means ignoring rocketry (the AI loves to tech rocketry/satellites so you'll pick those up from the internet). Superconductors is one tech away from computers and is a prerequisite for genetics, which you also need to tech for a space race victory. That is generally what you want to research next, especially since it allows you to (purportedly) build spaceship parts faster. I, personally, can't remember the last game I teched superconductors after, say, satellites, composites, ecology or even fiber optics.

    The point of the research institute is to boost your research (it even says so in the description), and it does this quite nicely. It seems to be the biggest knock against it is that it "comes to late", which I don't treat as a serious rebuttal for reasons already stated. Yes, it comes late, but it's pretty effective at doing what it's supposed to do.

    So what? This does not detract from the usefulness of the UB-- even more so if you're a fan of advanced starts.

    (Edit: Someone can check my math. I'm sure I probably made an error somewhere.)
     
  16. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    yep, your math is off. RI provides 7.5 base beakers. 15 in Rep. But you need to think about the "extra" you are referring to. (i.e., the 25% bonus should be a wash) Only the bpts from the free scientists should be in your equation.

    When you are pumping 3 to 5,000 bpts at this stage in the game, this bonus is very marginal, and the GPPs are certainly useless. And again, only relates to one victory path.

    Not saying it's a bad UB, but it aint very good either.
     
  17. elohssa

    elohssa Warlord

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    Research institutes are supposed to be based on the 1700s when Peter the Great established an educational-research institute to be built in his newly created imperial capital, St Petersburg. So why the hell do they replace a building that required superconductors? Surely for the 1700s it should be observatories they replace (this would make them less crap and more realistic).
     
  18. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    Cities with RE have Observatories in them.
    Although it's only 12 base beakers when in Rep, it's at least 18 net beakers.
     
  19. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    The Observatory is not the RI.
     
  20. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    I'm not claiming that. But the RI gives at least 18 extra beakers, while the Laboratory's guaranteed beakers are 0.
     

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