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Rank the UBs!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by MilesBeyond, Dec 15, 2011.

  1. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    How does 2 scientists = 18 "extra" beakers
     
  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep, if the RI was an Observatory it might have much more value. As it is, the RI comes far too late to make any difference to really any game. Heck, you can pull a circa 1AD Astro.
     
  3. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    Sigh... I and some others already explained that.
    As you should have read in the post two posts before the one you quoted, I'm assuming we are in Representation.
    Two scientists in Rep give 12 beakers.
    Every city with a RE institute in it has at least a +50:science: modifier.
    And yes, extra is pointing at the amount you'll actually get after the modifiers, but as you have read the other posts, you know that already.
     
  4. Bei1052

    Bei1052 Emperor

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    The research institute gives a +25% boost to research. To build the research institute, you have to build an observatory, which gives a +25% boost to research. Essentially, that works out to the research institute giving a +50% boost to beakers once it is built. Normal scientists give +3 beakers each. Representation boosted scientists give +6 beakers each. Six + six is twelve. Twelve times 1.5 is 18. That's where the "extra" 18 bpt comes from.

    Yes, the GPP are pretty useless but the science provided isn't marginal. I feel like we're going in a circle. See my previous posts as to why.

    So what?

    It's not a great, gamebreaking UB on account of it being among the last, if not the last, UB you will get, but it is a good one nonetheless. It's nowhere near the bottom, and it is much better than the building it replaces.
     
  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Just to save you the trouble....well...ha...you've already done it really. I don't need to see all the math and stuff. I'm fully aware if the math and what these building provide, prereqs and all. (my questions/point are semi-rhetorical...sorry)

    What your missing in all this, and my point, is that you are adding to this stuff what already exists without the UB. The real math here would be the hammers to beaker conversion of building all that to get a couple of free scientists in a city at such a late stage in the game, especially at a time when hammer economies have really kicked in.


    I believe this statement to be patently false
     
  6. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    Yes and no; part of the argument is whether the additional base beakers will impact your economy in a meaningful way. The 25% multiplier is a wash if we are strictly comparing value over base building without looking at other implications. But to calculate the full advantage, you do have to include all relevant multiplier buildings. Using that as a starting point, you would then have to decide whether the Research Institute would be a relevant building in a (science?) city. The more multipliers, the deeper the impact. And vice versa.

    The value over base would be (2 scientists x 6:science: = 12 :science:) under Representation.
     
  7. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    I've never got Portugal on my games, my placement of the Feitoria was just theoretical. And still it depends map-wise.
     
  8. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    It's expensive, quite late, comes on a building which needs a not-so-extremely useful prerequisite and is even worse itself, needs coast.
    On top of that, coast isn't the best tile to work, especially if you are not financial. A grassland cottage with emancipation, FS and US will quickly outshine even Feitoria coast. If you are financial, it's even better, as cottages get bonuses from Financial too.
    Now, if it came on a harbour...
     
  9. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    It would be a bit OP
     
  10. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    I have to use the new smiley in this post. Here it is : :p
    Then the Dike is OP too, as :hammers: > :commerce: And my other points about coasts still stand...
    Financial, in that way, is OP too on coastal maps. Although you have a point, I can't think of any other building with that power.
     
  11. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    On maps which are capable of spawning oceans coast is guaranteed, where as cottageable land may not be and certainly isn't for every city.

    I'm not saying at all that a city working coastal tiles will be competitive with your cottaged cities, but there may be room for both. Financial provides a larger percentage yield increase to coastal tiles than to towns; again this will only come into play if our land is poor.

    A Feitoria bonus applied to a harbor would be interesting, it provides a much improved ROI compared to the customs house and is available early in the game.
     
  12. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    it really depends on how long the game is going to go. For a space game, in some cities, it's probably worth it.

    if the game is going to end with late renaissance/early industrial military sweep, it's almost certainly not.
     
  13. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    The dike is, however available much later.
    Anyways, assume a case in which a city is on the coast but not by a river. Would it be able to build a dike?
    If the answer is in the affirmative, then the dike is OP.

    Financial is OP almost everywhere:D

    If one of the Portugese leaders had the financial trait then the feitoria would be stronger, IMO.
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I don't think that the garden and the apotecary are that bad...
    If you have ever built a aqveduct, and thought that was a good idea, how would you like a CHEAPER akveduct, that also give you one extra happines?
    Well, that is what the garden does, not to mention the extra culture slider thingy.

    Apotekary is not as good, but still, when the time comes when you need health (factories/coalplants etc) you build grocers, and to have a even better grocer is nice.

    There is good synnergy in these UBs, they serve a purpose, and they don't go obsolete.
     
  15. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Levee's can be built on coast without a river, yes.

    Question:

    Why is the Feitora useless and a dike over powered? Feitora is 2-0-3 plus extra trade route income, while a dike is 2-1-2. Both are 180 hammers, dike comes even later in the tech tree.

    I'm not trying to make an argument that the feitora is better or even as good as the dike - but I can't really reconcile why one is universally reviled as awful and the other is seen as awesome.
     
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    The argument goes that hammers is usually better than commerce.

    However, I agree abit with you, especially if one considers the fact that costal cities often are commerce cities. And in a commerce city, you want commerce. :)
     
  17. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    yes, hammers are better than commerce. I just don't really know why the dike is SO much better than the feitora. I used to think it OP, too, but now I'm just not sure.

    It's kind of like when I build Moai - I'm all happy, but the actual effect isn't all that much. Just a little better than irrigated plain next to a river.
     
  18. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    Because the Customs house is generally seen as a worse building than the Levee, because commerce < production, because SP is a better tech than Economics usually, because coastal cities usually have a chronic lack of production, because Dikes make Golden Ages even better and because Dikes have cool windmills on them.
     
  19. Ataxerxes

    Ataxerxes Deity

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    Strijder gave a good summary of the reasons. The customs house is almost never built and the bonus usually isn't enough to make it a good build. The Levee is usually a good build by itself so any bonus to it is good. It's similar to the Mint for Mali, any tangible bonus to a building you normally build is pretty good. Coastal cities often have a problem with production, which the Dike helps.

    The Dike is somewhat overrated as well. It's a good UB, but not awesome. The tiles the Dike improves are often still the tiles the city least wants to use. If any UB is awesome, it's the Terrace which new players have a hard time seeing why it's so good.
     
  20. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Too lazy to make a full list, but i have to give me 1. spot to the Ger.
    Using mounted in 90% of my games, getting vasselage or Theo for free is just so cool.
    Righto, honorable mentions to the Cothon. Surely beats a Rathaus to get another trade route in those Hannibal coastal cities?

    Hmm and another idea...most overrated: Barray.
    100h to gain 1 food is a traaaap in most cities. Really, it is ~~
     

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