Rank the UBs!

[Sian]

something about the zig, it depends much on the map if its worth it getting that much earlier ... mediumhigh difficulity (Monarch+) Toroidal often kick it up into ugly territory rather fast, at which Zigs can help you limp out faster than anything

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I can do 8-12 cities in the BCs with Ziggurats on Immortal depending on resources, dont need Granaries right away, Library > Whipped Ziggurat in every city, then a Granary. Its definitely top tier when abused. Cathy of Sumeria abuses it the most. For that purpose, its top tier if you have room to expand.

IF you have this kind of room it's definitely nice to have. Don't get me wrong, it's easily a top 10 UB for me. And courthouses ARE a big hammer sink, which is part of the reason sac alter and zig are good (discount). I think you're going in the wrong order with buildings though. If you have the food and at least a few resources (likely on 8-12 cities), you should probably still be going granary ---> library ----> zig (or zig after granary if not creative or if organized). The reason is that you can whip much more efficiently with a granary and worker turns are at a premium with heavy expansion, so as you say the whip is paramount and so is strengthening it. You can use the spy slot and base espionage on the zigs to absolutely slaughter the AI's espionage defenses and steal techs nicely...but with CRE the library is cheap enough that maybe you still want it before zig.

If you have beyond crummy and very high food bonus resources, maybe you want to get library first so you can get calendar, monarchy, or something else that lets you grow.

People whip their Courthouses in normal games

Not always. When empires are smaller and courthouse is only worth 3 or less in some cities good players often skip them for the entire early-mid game. Also, whipping away 5 or more just to "save" that in while delaying cottage growth is an obvious poor strategy. Therefore, in cottage cities slow building things is often still preferable unless you're out of good cottage tiles or have grown past cap (but then you should be looking to raise it). For hammer cities whether you whip or just hammer it out depends on terrain.

 

[strijder20]

Part of the reason I choose ziggurats over SacAlts is that I don't like whipping - I usually play food-poor maps for some reason, and while I usually run slavery, I don't use it overly much.
I find the fact that they come at Priesthood quite good too: while a direct priesthood beeline isn't the most powerful thing to do, it also unlocks the Oracle, which is very possible to get on lower difficulties.
Malls just come to late for me to care, and by that time you should be sinking production into research/units/culture instead of supermarkets, enhanced or not, unless you are going for a time victory, have your gold slider high for some reason (rush-buying with the Kremlin perhaps) or over-drafted and really need that extra happiness.

 

[babar]

Not much love for the Stele - understandable considering Zara's traits, but if you take it at its own value (ie playing unrestricted) it's pretty decent. Super early, quicker border pops, and great for the fairly common culture wars with AIs. Also helpful in cultural victories.

Nice to see the shale plant and the salon seem to have moved from the bottom tier in people's estimations since last I checked.

 

[plasmacannon]

Not much love for the Stele - understandable considering Zara's traits, but if you take it at its own value (ie playing unrestricted) it's pretty decent. Super early, quicker border pops, and great for the fairly common culture wars with AIs. Also helpful in cultural victories.

Nice to see the shale plant and the salon seem to have moved from the bottom tier in people's estimations since last I checked.

It is understandable why those 3 UBs are low on most people's rank of UBs.
1) The Stele needs 3 more culture from other sources to do anything and it obsoletes.
2) The Salon is a Renaissance Era building that generates GA points. If this were GS or GE, then it would have more fans. If we are running Caste system to have several Scientist specialists, then the Artist pollution can me minimized.
3) The Shale Plant replaces the Coal plant. It still produces 2 , where the hydro plant won't. It does produce +10% production, but so late, that it only matters on long games, usually on huge maps.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Actually for whatever reason firaxis decided to break tendencies and allow fractional culture. They alone know why when they couldn't manage fractional research :/.

Shale isn't great but it's not bad either. Most earlier UB are better, but not all. The and flexibility in terms of coal usage, ironworks, and the fact that it's a building that if you reach the tech, you WANT it are all things in its favor. Definitely better than things like dun, feitoria, assembly plant, mall, and arguably better than things like stele, baray, pavilion, and salon. It's in the upper part of the lower half of UB's .

 

[plasmacannon]

The Three Gorges Dam provides power for all cities on it's continent.
Wouldn't building it replace the Shale Plant in those cities?
I don't think, I've played Japan that far to find out.

If I was playing a large enough map where I would get time to utilize the UB to it's full potential, I think, I'd choose the Mall over the Shale Plant.
20% more gold and up to 3 happiness instead of 10% production and 2 ?
The production is nice, but 10% isn't all that much.
I tend to buy buildings and pay for upgrades towards the end when I have lots of gold coming in.

 

[Riflin'Joe]

I quite like the salon myself. Any free specialist is decent with rep, (available in the same era, so the mids aren't a requirement). By this stage, great scientist bulbing is becoming less efficient, so I'm less concerned about which GP shows up.

 

[babar]

Yeah, stelae give border pops in 8 turns on normal speed. Nothing to complain about too much.

The salon's GA pollution is often overestimated, and if you do get unlucky (I honestly never have), there's always golden ages. I can see it might be annoying if you're waiting for corps GPs. It gives extra GP points, extra research (under rep), and extra culture. I'm not saying it's a great UB or anything though.

Shale plant: what TMIT said, and 10% extra production isn't worthless.

 

[PierreBonaparte]

I'm suprised at how underated the maloseum is as the jail replacement.
To all you critics you need to
maloseums are so good for controlling hapiness during wars

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm suprised at how underated the maloseum is as the jail replacement.
To all you critics you need to
maloseums are so good for controlling hapiness during wars

They're not terrible, but they're late. Any of the boosters from earlier in the game are better, because you can still build that building (which you often want anyway) + jails and get the same bonus 50+ turns sooner :/.

Certainly jails aren't a drag however, and they pair with a great UU.

 

[Solyaris]

Generaly speaking, I rank them after 3 criteria:
- When its avalible (the sooner the better)
- How many cities will I build it in (all, commerce, production, GP)
- How great the benefit is over the normal building

Ranked from 1 (very good), 4 (very bad)
1.
- Rathaus (50% less mantinace is huge, fairly early erea and something you eventualy build in every city)
- Tarrace (the best UB, without doubt)
- Inkhanda (consider the leader, its great. You'll always build it, and its basicly +10-20% extra research)

2.
- Madrassa (early, the extra culture is nice for culture pressure, 2 extra GP slots nice if you need one for shrine)
- Sacrificial alter (lower anger duration is def. nice)
- Hippodrome (Usualy build this, extra happyfaces relativly early is great)
- Obelisk (with non-creative leader you always build it, and the early GP can be good)
- Stock exchange (+7.5%-15% gold, not the best, but still decent)
- Mint (ranked over stock exchange, early and on a building you always need)
- Ballcort (early happy-face is nice)
- Hammamm (turn aqueduct into a great building instead of situational)
- Fitoria (great on water-maps, decent on pangea ect)

3.
- Garden (early, but I dont always build colloseum so value drops)
- Cohton (good on water-maps, on other types of maps its fairly bad cause the tech needed for the building is low prio.)
- Dun (@agg leader, open up some funny combat options with theo/vassage + barraks, can be effective)
- Dike (too situational and too late in game)
- Salon (too litle, too late to give any true benefits)
- Odeon (happy face + culture, okeyish)
- Mausoleum (maybe I should have given this more credit then I am as the esp. points might be better then I think)
- Shale plant (well, extra hammers is good, but its just too late)
- Baray (+1 food is always nice in cities with low food, however, aqueduct is low on the production prio. list)
-Seowon (same as shale plant just sience instead, its nice but too late and on wrong building)
- Ger (between 2 and 3, its def nice, but situational, +2 XP aint that much either)
- Totem pole (between 3 and 4, has its uses)
- Apothecary
- Citadel (situational, if you use it to the fullest it can be surprisingly decent)
- Citurat (pristhood isnt something I usualy go for before the time I get CoD normaly anyways, the lower hammer cost is nice tho)
- Trading post (never tried it)

4.
- Mall (too little, too late)
- Pavilion (good if you're going for cultural vic, else pretty crap)
- Assembly plant (crap)
- Stelle (same as above)
- Forum (its not a total waste, but close! maybe for GP farms)
- Research institute (only if you're going for space)

 

[Mylene]

Hippodrome seems overlooked often, i did myself
Having played around a bit, i'd say this has big big potential.
Defy AP resolutions 3x? No problemo..this sweet buildng can give up to 21 happy.
Ofc you dun want to slider so high if not needed, but it's very nice if you dun care about more research currently anyways..

 

[plasmacannon]

@ Solyaris, Interesting. You rated the Fetoria higher than most people. It is usually in the 'too late' catagory.

Seowon (same as shale plant just sience instead, its nice but too late and on wrong building)

Wrong building? It is the replacement for the University, which gets built in your science cities which you will need for Oxford University. It's not like the Salon providing artist points. That should have been a theatre.

 

[Jabarto]

I've wondered, do you think it would be fair for the Salon to give a free specialist instead of just an artist? It'd certainly be more useful and would avoid the "GP Pool Pollution" issue, and it stays with the theme of the original building.

 

[Iranon]

I think the link between culture and science is quite essential to the theme.
Balance-wise it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

I've had the same idea for Mercantilism, although it's not a bad civic as is.