Rant about US foreign policy

[Zardnaar]

We were having this diuscussion the other day and geo-politics and American foreign policy came up. I was talking to a Green left winger type voter and he started to annoy me. Darfur in the Sudan came up with the ethnic cleansing/genocide that has been going on.

Anyway somehow it was Americas fault and to a lesser extent the west because of colonisation (like Africa was a utopia before the Europeans arrived ). Anyway he started to blither on about America should do more around the world to stand up to tyranny blah blah blah. He also opposed the war on Iraq.

Now I started to get a bit confused here. I think the invasion of Iraq was a stupid thing to do (or maybe the way it was done) and it could have been more organised. However alot of left wing socialist types call America all sorts of names because they deal with a variety of dictatorships etc around the world. When America actually invades someone however they're out in the streets having peace protests.

This particular person also is one of those "I refuse to serve in the military" types but if peacekeeping is involved he is more than happy to support someone else putting their butt in the firing line. Yep go to Timor and rebuild the country etc. Never mind that the militia there have guns and take shots at our soldiers-hes to cowardly to serve but is happy to recieve a welfare check.

To end my rambling thread it doesn't seem to matter what the USA does. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. I'm pragmatic enough to realise that the USA will act in its own self interest. Imagine that a country acting in its own interests- what a shocking concept. I'm sure France, Germany, Russia, China etc never do that or have invaded another country for a fabricated (or no) reason at all.

 

[Scuffer]

Geo-politics is pretty much The Law of Unintended Consequences put into practice. You can't do right for doing wrong.

 

[Drewcifer]

"I can't find a job" - It is because of the American captalist system.

"It is hot in the summer" - Nevermind that Europe burns more fossil fuels than anyone per capita outside of the US, and have had no real substanitive interest in changing this with the failure of Kyoto. Even without the US there would still be a major problem. Most of their governments talk to make a nice show politically but obviously don't want to act because they don't unless they can pull it off without affecting their supporters.

"The developing world is impoverished, starving and full of guns" - Well you know who is calling the shots now - forget the 500 years of history that came before that.

"My cat just got hit by a car" - Must be the CIA.

I am a registered member of the Minnesota Green Party (Green Party US, and I try to live how I vote). Even I know that there are people who think like that about the US, maybe not at these boards but I have met them in real life. As the most powerful country on earth the US will continue to be the target of anyone who has issues with the world in general. There is nothing that can be done about it. Even with a decent government it would still be true, it was true from '92 to '98. During the Seattle riots I remember reading a couple of interviews in foriegn anarchist papers with activists in other countries who said basically "American's don't know how to riot properly, we will show them a real riot when those meetings come here". There are people who will hate the US no matter what it does. You can never win an argument with someone who cares about "rioting properly". And why should you even try, the decisions are made on the inside, we are better off trying to get in there. Yes, the US does stupid things, but that doesn't even begin to cover the things that we are blamed for.

 

[Jawz II]

i think the guys point was, the war in iraq had nothing to do with spreading "freedom"

if that was the case, there are tons of other people that need protection more, like the blacks in sudan

that war was about oil, not WMD, not freedom(its martial law now, innit?)

 

[Drewcifer]

i think the guys point was, the war in iraq had nothing to do with spreading "freedom"

if that was the case, there are tons of other people that need protection more, like the blacks in sudan

that war was about oil, not WMD, not freedom(its martial law now, innit?)

Indeed but if you are talking about anti-Americanism it predates the war and runs much deeper than it. Even before that stupid war it was well entrenced. The war has obviously exacerbated the situation..

 

[Jawz II]

ok, how about for example the middle east, and south america, the cia overthrew many democacys (iran and iraq for example), and socialist elected governments and replaced them with dictatorships

many times, cia formed and trained death squads, and supported very righ wing militias/regimes in south america

how can you expect those people to like the US?

you have yourselves to blame, do you know how the cia was formed?
after ww2, the us didnt only import rocket scientist from nazi germany, alot of their intelligence people ended up in CIA

when you put nazis to work, is it surprising that the result is one fiasco after another?

 

[Drewcifer]

ok, how about for example the middle east, and south america, the cia overthrew many democacys (iran and iraq for example), and socialist elected governments and replaced them with dictatorships

many times, cia formed and trained death squads, and supported very righ wing militias/regimes in south america

how can you expect those people to like the US?

Well I don't, all I am saying is that there is an america that exists in the imagation of the global left that doesn't really reflect the place that I do my day to day living in, If a person wishes to make a blanket accusation against the US they first should make peace with the notion of San Francisco, Seattle, Minneapolis, Madison, Portland, Or, LA, San Deigo, Lincoln, Nebraska, Austin, Texas, Ithica, NY, etc., etc., NY, Boston, Philidelphia, Chicago, DC, the city of New Orleans, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Cleveland, etc., I could go on. The folks in these and many other places have nothing to do with the idiocy that is done in our name.

 

[Perfection]

Well, we did come up with chili, then perfected it, that's got to amount to something

 

[Silica_Pathways]

If a person wishes to make a blanket accusation against the US they first should make peace with the notion of San Francisco, Seattle, Minneapolis, Madison, Portland, Or, LA, San Deigo, Lincoln, Nebraska, Austin, Texas, Ithica, NY, etc., etc., NY, Boston, Philidelphia, Chicago, DC, the city of New Orleans, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Cleveland, etc., I could go on. The folks in these and many other places have nothing to do with the idiocy that is done in our name.

Those intelligent states should group together and make new country - NewAmerica

*edit* U mentioned even some dumb states... ahh, crap, i even don't read carefully before posting

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Moderator Action: Troll title amended.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[anarres]

no. now go and overthrow your governmentl.

^^^^^^^^
funny because it's true.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Heh, CFC is the wrong place for you if you find anti-Americanism annoying.

 

[Jorge]

I'm pragmatic enough to realise that the USA will act in its own self interest. Imagine that a country acting in its own interests- what a shocking concept. I'm sure France, Germany, Russia, China etc never do that or have invaded another country for a fabricated (or no) reason at all.

Very well said, you can also justify Germany starting the WWII that way ....

 

[anarres]

SeleucusNicator, like most people from the US you seem to think anti-US Administration is actually anti-American.

People shouldn't leave CFC because people are anti-bush, they should find out why so many people think like that, and maybe try to understand them (and "jealousy" doesn't cut it as a reason with us US-haters ).

 

[storealex]

The problem with anti-Americanism, is that it makes the Republicans discard all criticism as simple anti-Americanism, even when the criticism is well founded.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

SeleucusNicator, like most people from the US you seem to think anti-US Administration is actually anti-American.

People shouldn't leave CFC because people are anti-bush, they should find out why so many people think like that, and maybe try to understand them (and "jealousy" doesn't cut it as a reason with us US-haters ).

That's an overly superficial way of looking at it.

Anti-Americans simply do not like the United States using its power in a way that benefits itself, and Bush is simply a delivery mechanism for that sort of American behavior. Anti-Americanism is not new and it certainly existed before Bush; even during the Clinton days now seen as a golden era by Euroliberals, there was much anti-Americanism.

Directed at Bush or not, most anti-American posts at this forum contain far more general attacks on the United States, often disparaging generalizations about our population overall, and are usually wrapped in a very smug sense of cultural and idealogical superiority.

 

[storealex]

Anti-Americans simply do not like the United States using its power in a way that benefits itself, and Bush is simply a delivery mechanism for that sort of American behavior.

That's not anti-Americanism, that's disagreeing with your foreign policy! Cant you have a friend who disagrees with you?
Anti-Americanism is when people always choose to interpretate a situation as if US is the bad guy, instead of looking at it objectively. Anti-Americanism is when people simply dislikes your country, or even wish harm upon it.
I like your country, the people, the nature, the idea, the culture. But I sure as hell don't like Bush, and the idea that you should always try to boost your self, even when on the expense of others.

Directed at Bush or not, most anti-American posts at this forum contain far more general attacks on the United States, often disparaging generalizations about our population overall, and are usually wrapped in a very smug sense of cultural and idealogical superiority.

True that some people does that, but it's really a shame when you use those people, to disregard well founded.criticism.
"A minority of the world will hate America no matter what, therefore we should do as we please and screw world opinion"

 

[Juka The Dumb]

my favorite invented 'reason' for anti-bush posts is- that bush-bashing is in.
i dont think anyone wants to be seen as the new hippie,there are too many different groupes that are against it.maybe there's a solid reason why so many people around the world find your president an idiot and his administration criminal...

 

[kryszcztov]

You see, SN, I'm starting to believe that you can find the best AND the worst in the USA today. I'm fond of some American music bands, I like many American movies, etc, etc, etc... but that's only a part of what America is. The part that is pro-Bush, that is pro-religion-everywhere, the part that is gung-ho, the part that doesn't know Europe well (and other places too, like Iraq), the part that only believes in America's superiority, well, if all those parts make one, I hate it. Do you get it ? And sometimes we unfortunately confuse a country with how it is represented (the administration, the State). And then we further confuse that with all the people who support that point of view, and the cultural environment from where it comes from.

Apart from that, I'm kind of proud - at least happy - to say I love bands like the Smashing Pumpkins or the Pixies, or movies like Fight Club or Pulp Fiction. This is the interesting part I can find in America. The Realpolitik geekness, the feeling of everlasting superiority, the "because God said it" quotes and all of that just pisses me off.

 

[amadeus]

The part that is pro-Bush, that is pro-religion-everywhere,

Deception tool of the left number one. Everyone who likes Bush is a religious nutcase. Not true.

What did you think about Kerry promising to bring God into the White House, speaking at churches? Didn't that worry you, or did you just choose to ignore that because you don't like Bush?

the part that doesn't know Europe well (and other places too, like Iraq),

And Europeans don't know America well. 25% of Germans believe that the U.S. government was involved in 9/11.

the part that only believes in America's superiority,

Look at your location and reconsider your statement. You're in the belly of the beast: France has had a "we're better than all of you" attitude since de Gaulle.