RB1 - Cuban Isolationists

[pvzh]

Notice the heavy use of cottages, even when it's not entirely wise to do so; Lahore clearly desperately needs irrigation and more food, yet the AI workers have surrounded it with cottages, and so it's stuck at size 10. AI worker routines - it's something we'll look into when the expansion rolls around.

If you will work on expansion in any capacity, remaind Firaxis to fix AI city placement. There should not be ANY cities one tile of the coast where they cannot use water tiles effectively.

 

[·Imhotep·]

Due to enjoying Sullas walkthrough so much i've finally ended up being here and enjoying this thread even more ! It's really fun to watch two such skilled players at work and become a witness on how they put the AI to the brink an all ends... When it comes to Civ4 Sirian and Sulla combined seem to me a challenge as close to hell as anything. Poor AI ! It's been the heck of a game so far, so finish it in style and grab the domination victory !

@Sirian & Sulla:

You could not possibly tag up for another SG and show us newbies out there - like me - how to handle things right with a non-spiritual Civ and strategy ? No ? And if I beg you ? By the way, you should call on Firaxis for some gold - probably this thread and Sulla's walkthrough work as shrine for them, eliminating the last resistance people had on buying the game...

Thanks for this great stuff !

Admiring greez from Germany,

Lord Timon

 

[nevs69]

geez... there are SO many people posting their first ever post on this thread! (I was one of them) Thank you so much Sirian and Sulla, you should definitely get some kind of commission for all the people that you get to join this site!

 

[Heroes]

As my understanding, you are effectively victorious once you get 68% world population, because then all your resoluton in UN will be passed. Is that right?

 

[BotlGnomz]

Yeah, but they want to conquer the world.
Excuse me, DOMINATE the world.

 

[Sirian]

Just to let everybody off the hook early tonight...

I won't have my turn posted. Not quite halfway done playing, and I've had other things to look after. (Gasp! No, really.) I won't have it done, tonight.

Read some of these other fine SG threads if you hunger.


- Sirian

 

[Harrier]

If you will work on expansion in any capacity, remaind Firaxis to fix AI city placement. There should not be ANY cities one tile of the coast where they cannot use water tiles effectively.

It would be cool if they could do it.

BUT:

Possible AI computation.

1. Select new city spot. (as determined by existing rules).
2. Check if surrounding tiles are coastal.
- if not coastal then build city.

3 - if coastal then :
a) check if moving to a coastal location loses resource/etc.
- if not move and build. {first determine how many coastal tiles are available - and which is best}

4. - if yes (loses resources)
check if new location is better than origional (some tile weighting needed here)

- if not better then build city.

5 - if better then :
- move and build. {first determine how many coastal tiles are available - and which is best}


This will need a weighting system for each surrounding sets of tiles, to decide.

It will add a much longer time between moves (more computing needed) to decide the best location for new AI cities.

So although I would like the change (as simple as it seems) - I do not think I could afford to buy the computing power needed to achieve it this year.

Just my 2 cents.

PS.

Think of it like comparing a computer chess game (for new/average players) as against the world champion beating computers that are available.

The more deeper into the move analysis you go - the more powerfull the computer has to be.

Then think of all the possiible moves a civ game has to consider, against the relatively restricted and structured moves of a chess game.

Its not just the moves, but the forward thinging that makes even chess hard to compute.

I could expand further - but I guess you get the point - I am trying to make.

 

[Zed-F]

It already has to make a number of computations along these lines, just adding a bit more to check for coastline placement suitability would not slow the game down significantly. More at issue is the time it takes to implement and test the feature. Still I think it should be doable in a larger patch or expansion... just don't hold your breath, as there may well be higher priority work items to go after before this one.

 

[Sirian]

If you will work on expansion in any capacity, remaind Firaxis to fix AI city placement. There should not be ANY cities one tile of the coast where they cannot use water tiles effectively.

You might think, but being on the coast is not all up side. Inland cities are safe from The Sirian Doctrine.

Also, sometimes the AI is unconcerned with two to four of the last tiles its city would be working, and prioritizes getting the best tiles in an area under the control of a single city, to make it a powerhouse. It may not suffer for not being on the coast until very late in to the game, and by then the advantages of the city being stronger the whole while might outweigh the sacrifices.

The AI may settle one tile from the coast a little too often, but I would not agree that it should never do so.


- Sirian

 

[MeteorPunch]

@Sirian & Sulla:

You could not possibly tag up for another SG and show us newbies out there - like me - how to handle things right with a non-spiritual Civ and strategy?

I second this idea. We have been taught the ways of the shrines and now must learn of conquests. My request would be a Monarch level warmongering game going for conquest or domination.

 

[bed_head7]

I second this idea. We have been taught the ways of the shrines and now must learn of conquests. My request would be a Monarch level warmongering game going for conquest or domination.

So you haven't learned anything about warmongering in this game?

 

[MeteorPunch]

So you haven't learned anything about warmongering in this game?

Yes, but --- playing a game like they are playing with variants and such is entirely different than a war game, where you must take over the globe all while keeping up decently in tech and winning before the AI's win space or diplo with the rapid tech pace. I suggested the Monarch level because even I can win on Prince, so that's no challenge, I know they can do it, and if they do it'll be cool.

 

[Timko]

If you will work on expansion in any capacity, remaind Firaxis to fix AI city placement. There should not be ANY cities one tile of the coast where they cannot use water tiles effectively.

You might think, but being on the coast is not all up side. Inland cities are safe from The Sirian Doctrine.

Also, sometimes the AI is unconcerned with two to four of the last tiles its city would be working, and prioritizes getting the best tiles in an area under the control of a single city, to make it a powerhouse. It may not suffer for not being on the coast until very late in to the game, and by then the advantages of the city being stronger the whole while might outweigh the sacrifices.

The AI may settle one tile from the coast a little too often, but I would not agree that it should never do so.


- Sirian

I don't know why you can't just build a harbour/lighthouse in a city that is one tile from the coast. Seems a better solution to me.

 

[batteryacid]

I don't know why you can't just build a harbour/lighthouse in a city that is one tile from the coast. Seems a better solution to me.

The cleaner Solution would be to make the lighthouse an additional TILE improvement for coast tiles, with only one per city radius necessary for the city to benefit from it. Would be interesting to apply this also on the harbour for building ships.

Onthe other hand- what would then be the point on building cities at the coast- and as we know coastal cities had a LOT of importance in history, and all changes in the Lighhouse/harbour sytem would diminish the importance of coastal cities which I personally wouldn´t like.

Seems to me the better idea to change AI routines

 

[·Imhotep·]

Yes, but --- playing a game like they are playing with variants and such is entirely different than a war game, where you must take over the globe all while keeping up decently in tech and winning before the AI's win space or diplo with the rapid tech pace. I suggested the Monarch level because even I can win on Prince, so that's no challenge, I know they can do it, and if they do it'll be cool.

I would not emphasize the variants so much, my eye is rather turned on playing with a non-spiritual civ and dealing with the fact that you won't possibly be able to build up the Hydra. Being successful without gaining a lot of bucks with your shrines and religion spreading - that's what I'd like to see from these two guys. And of course, the reason for begging them to tag up for another SG is also a selfish one: It's just so much fun following their recaps .

@Sirian:

Excellent point from you on the AI's city building habits. Being away one tile from coast is the best defense against naval warfare ! And there might as well be other good reasons for doing so even if you are usually up to coast cities: I guess any player would step back one tile from coast if he grabs let's say copper, marble or other valuable resources by doing so...

@Harrier:

Think of it like comparing a computer chess game (for new/average players) as against the world champion beating computers that are available.

The more deeper into the move analysis you go - the more powerfull the computer has to be.

Then think of all the possiible moves a civ game has to consider, against the relatively restricted and structured moves of a chess game.

Its not just the moves, but the forward thinging that makes even chess hard to compute.

I could expand further - but I guess you get the point - I am trying to make.

Well, the comparison to a chess game is rather difficult as the conditions are completely different. First of all you got a tremendous bunch of opening and game theory in chess - which makes it a lot easier for the programmers. They can implement opening books and libraries, tactical and strategic laws can be put into search algorithms to cut down the search deepness. Completely different in Civ - in a given situation you won't be able to find the best move as well as the best strategy for there are several possibilities on approaching the task (in chess you got only two - strategy and tactics, with tactics being only a helpful servant for strategy). By the way, the potency of the used machine says nothing about the strength the chess program can play. Take Shredder, for example - in one of the last computer chess tournaments it ran on a inferior system but routed all opponents to the ground. It has more to do with fine programming...

Best regards,

Lord Timon

 

[ChrTh]

Just to let everybody off the hook early tonight...

I won't have my turn posted. Not quite halfway done playing, and I've had other things to look after. (Gasp! No, really.) I won't have it done, tonight.

- Sirian

The waiting is the hardest part ...

 

[NerfSmuggler]

"Set the wayback machine for posts #408-410, Sherman"
"Ok Mr. Peabody, but everyone's waiting to hear how the war's going."

How about "The Atheist Variant" (TM):
--Can never have a state religion
--Can never found a religion
--Can never build temples
--Can never use any religious civics

The stronger way would be to adopt Theocracy while having no state religion. This would prevent the spread of any religions not already present at the time. You could simply keep your borders closed until you can enact this, ensuring no religions ever appear in your empire! (I believe).

I'm sure we'll play something like this eventually. It won't be next up for me, though. Feeding the Hydra is exhausting work! I'll need a break from looking after religious priorities in my next game.

- Sirian

As it happens this came up in a quick game last night. My first city was at a narrow spot and I had a lot of space to the West all to myself (well, me and the Barbs) as long as I kept closed borders and didn't let any other civ's settlers thru. So I was running closed borders the whole game.

I was going for sea related and basic worker techs (love the tech tree, but it's wacky how uneven progress can get), and the other civs were snapping up the faiths. My border cities started catching religions from neighbors -- "Well it looks like you have come down with a case of 'Buddhism' take these two Mala beads and call me in the morning."

Looks like closed borders are not an effective prophylactic against the spread of faith.

 

[Mike Lemmer]

A Conquest win? Nah, that's easy. I want to see them pull off a Cultural/Diplomatic win sometime. Show us the path of (pseudo-)peace!

 

[Arathorn]

Diplo's easy. Just get a ton of population (like they have had for a long time), and either build the UN or wait for someone else to build it, be elected S-G, and then have enough votes (by pop) to win, even if everybody hates you. Diplo wins are easy -- domination wins without the land requirement. Cultural is a different beast.

Arathorn

 

[MinionJoe]

The waiting is the hardest part ...

It would if the computer here at work couldn't run CivIV. Yup, I brought it into the office today and installed it. It runs. Leaderheads are just eyes and teeth and the water (but not the land) is all black (because of the cheap on-board Intel video), but it runs!

Someone asked a few posts ago about "non-spiritual" games. One of the problems with founding your own religion is that no one else has it until it spreads. So if you convert, you immediately get negatives to diplomacy.

Lately I've not been trying to found my own religions. I wait until a neighbor's religion spreads to my cities, then I convert, build a monastary, and spread the religion through the rest of my civilization.

I get good relations with my neighbor and I get the happiness/culture/production bonuses for having a religion. Unfortunately, you don't get the huge shrine income. But that money is going to a friend instead of an enemy.

Of course, my secret shame is that once I've built up a good sized army, I'll go "liberate" my religion's holy city.