RB25 - The Golden Five

[mucco]

Ugh, Mali is really big! If only the biggest city was more than size 9...

That makes me up, I guess. Well, I don't know if I have time tomorrow, as the school has started :suicide:, but I should have a couple hours free .

Any ideas on how to win this game? Are we definitely going for space?

Please post all suggestions you have!

 

[Sullla]

How to win? That's a good question.

Domination: Out. Not gonna happen.

Diplomatic: Not looking good. With all that land, Mansa's going to be the opponent, and Izzy's NOT going to vote for us. Caesar + us won't be enough to win.

Space: The conservative play. It'll be there even if we screw up something else.

Cultural: A little tougher, because we'll have to burn so many Great People on Golden Ages, but still a possibility. We won't be getting to Fusion if we take this path though, so we'd have to make SURE we had the requisite Great People for that last golden age! This would be a bit of a crazy gamble.

Conquest: Don't laugh - I'm serious. If we can get all our golden ages out of the way, we could legitimately try to take 'em all out. Just keep it in the back of our minds...

 

[sunrise089]

Lurker's comment: Considering how the game awards increasing ammounts of overal civ population increase at each additional city population point, is there still no chance that all five of your cities plus Caesar's could equal a diplo win?

Since conquest obviously involves a waring endgame, and possibly space may as well (if you have to declare on Mansa to keep him from launching) what about a diplo vote right after a war on Mansa to knock his population down? That seems much easier than a war of conquest, since your small number of cities might be hard-pressed to build up and sustain that large of an army.

As far as cultural - you did it in the True Cultural Challange SG without using the slider, would it be any harder here to use the slider but not be able to merge any artists? Cultural seems to have the best synergy with your game varient, and it sure would make good use of a late-game extra great artist.

 

[Gusto]

It does not add to the maximum number of each specialist. If you had maximum 3 engineers before, you'll have maximum 3 with Merca and SoL.

My .

 

[Jabah]

Lurker's comment: Considering how the game awards increasing ammounts of overal civ population increase at each additional city population point, is there still no chance that all five of your cities plus Caesar's could equal a diplo win?

UN votes are the total of your cities SIZE, not the population from the demographics (as painfully learnt in a previous RB Epic )

Jabah

 

[Xerol]

Well, you could always engage in some pillage-o-rama. The AI doesn't really grow their cities that fast, so one good pillaging war could knock them down, plus you'd get tons of money from cottage pillaging (which you could use to leave a Culture win open).

 

[mucco]

[0] Inherited turn...

Our capital looks gorgeous, with 85 GPP/turn. The other cities don't look bad as well...

The only thing I do is moving the archer in Tuscany to Straussburg, as that city is a almost MP unhappy, Tuscany won't have many problems making a defender for itself, now that it has the heroic epic.

[1] In the interturn, Straussinator is killed by a barb archer, coming from the city It fought bravely and redlined the foe, which is slaughtered with ease by Tuskelicious.

Tuscany completes the HE and starts a longbow, to get some protection (we aren't going to defend ourselves with swords if Mansa attacks right???), our other Tuscany (the worker) finds YET ANOTHER Malinese city up in the north.

It's Cornelia which needs the most attention. The city is suffering from unhealthiness, and it's not prioritizing GPP at the moment, so I decide to cottage over the river farm.

Then I see that tile is needed to transport irrigation two worker turns wasted... having so many idle workers and so much improved land somehow confused me . What to build in Cornelia? Angkor Wat, or the Hindu Mandir? Both are useful for priests, I pick the wonder, it will take 18 turns to complete, if we can get it.

[2] Unit movement. Dr. Raider kills a warrior, and proceeds to join Tuskelicious, who's camping outside the barb city.

[3] I micro Straussburg to finish Nationalism on this turn. No big deal, however... Tuscany starts an university, Straussburg a missionary, due in 3.

I decide to charge with the wounded Tuskelicious (5.0/6), without waiting for the other sword, and win easily.

The swords are going south now.

[4] Nationalism discovered, I pick... printing press. Why? We've got a monopoly on nationalism and PAPER still! we could try and get democracy for free, maybe.

[5] I set Cornelia on stagnant, as it's quite pointless to make it grow more (there aren't any 3 food + hammer/commerce tiles!). 99 GPP at the moment! I'm tempted to trade 2 health resources with mansa, but I'd have to give him two luxuries, so I avoid that.

[6] Good or bad news?

Islam is founded in Mali. This means two things: first, it will be harder for us to make mansa Hindu, as he owns three Holy Cities now. Second, he's researching on a path that doesn't lead to liberalism.

I see we have quite some trades with him. Hmm, what's all this happiness we're sending him? There is a Dye-Silk trade, and a Sugar-4 GPT (???) one. It's just to improve relations? I cancel both deals, so maybe he'll have some happy problems. I leave the corn-rice trade, for relations and because we NEED health!

In the same turn Caesar has discovered Civil Service, and still lacks Theology.

[7] Mansa circumnavigates.

[8] I have to renew a deal for happiness with mansa, as cornelia is unhappy now . We're down to 80% science and 0 cash.

[9] We're not at 0 cash anymore Angkor Wat BIDL. Starting the Taj Mahal now, we still have the nationalism moopoly, but Mansa has marble.

This turn Mansa has also researched paper, printing press is two turns away, so I guess Liberalism is next.

[10] Last turn.

This is not good, JC is annoyed towards us now. I'm not sure what triggered this.

The first of three missionaries I built reaches a Malinese city, and spreads the faith. I dial up Mansa and convert him to hinduism paying Nationalism.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/82449/Hindu.JPG

... almost but I was tempted to. I know that Nationalism is too important for us to give it away, and Mansa would convert back in little time. It could be a way to delay the AI, however, if we're going for a wonder. Oh, wait. Mansa is spiritual right?

Barbs pop up. One archer is quite near Cornelia I didn't see it! I fear the next player will have to lower research to upgrade the warrior there, to clean up that scum. More barbs are approaching (one sword whacked-an-arch in the past turns), axes start to come up. I've partially moved one longbow, I'll leave the last movement point to the next player. Workers are moving near Cornelia, to chop woods and mine hills. Stop them manually, since the routes are set.

That wasn't a good turn IMO, I made some stupid moves like taking away happiness from Cornelia, and was very confused about the management. There was so little to build for the cities, and so little for the workers to improve! I started chopping random trees out of the city radii, and mining useless hills. I moved many workers with little logistic (most of them were in the south anyway), the defence net is non-existant, despite Venice, which is starting to build military, as it hasn't anything else to build (well, some happiness buildings, but it doesn't need it because it would starve for illnesses before it reaches the happy cap). The Taj Mahal is due in 20 or so turns, I'm quite confident that we can get it, but it's not sure. Let's hope mansa is going for liberalism!

I don't post an overview picture since nothing has changed. I'll post a picture of Cornelia instead:

Very unhealthy.

The last thing I want to say, according to the demographics we're still first in GNP by a good margin, and this is only going to get better with Printing Press.

Please comment about all; wish T-hawk a better turnset than mine!

EDIT: oh yes, I got a great scientist on my last turn.

 

[T-hawk]

I see it, can play tonight. Nothing wrong with a little worker glut. We'll be glad we have them when lumbermills and railroads arrive.

I have to ask, why did we start Taj Mahal five turns late?? From the beginning of the game, we all knew that wonder was the #1 most critical item in our game plan. OK, we're still really unlikely to lose it, but we shouldn't be taking ANY risk at all in that department.

Regarding religion, an alternative besides attempting to share Hinduism is to just go Free Religion as soon as we can. Once we get Free Market (which should be sooner rather than later), the favorite civic bonus plus the other usual peaceful pluses should keep him Friendly for the duration. I don't fear him beating us to space; our GNP is ahead and I expect it to remain so, especially with three Golden Ages still to come for us.

Liberalism to Democracy is a cute stunt, but not really what we need. I'd be happier to just slingshot Corporation right now, or perhaps trade up to Banking so we can use Liberalism for Economics and the Great Merchant. (Is that still available -- has any Great Merchant been born lately in the event log? Economics requires Education, so if Mansa doesn't have that, we can still get the GM.)

Nationalism allows the Hermitage. Should we build that in Lillehammer? I think so; the cultural push won't do us any good anywhere else, and the Great Artist production won't matter as that city isn't ever going to produce a Great Person.

 

[mucco]

The Taj Mahal was started late because Cornelia was busy with Angkor Wat. We were unlikely to lose the Taj, and I figured that a try at that wonder wouldn't hurt.

Mansa is down Nationalism and Education at the moment, and he has researched paper only in my last turns (I checked every turn). We still lack guilds however, so a trade up to Economics looks hard to get.

Fully agree about Hermitage and Free Religion.

We have two kinds of great persons doubled already. Should we start pushing with specialists now? Every third GP of any kind is useless for Golden Ages.

 

[Sullla]

Some good stuff and a couple, err, questionable moves on that last turnset. Canceling a luxury deal that we needed to keep our cities happy... uh...

Not starting Taj immediately, ASAP, with super-high priority was undoubtedly the weediest though. But you recognized it as such, and that's what's most important.

The one thing that both T-Hawk and mucco seem to have ignored is the fact that going to Free Religion will mean giving up Pacifism and the +100% Great Person production. Until we have all our Great People lined up and ready to go for the last couple Golden Ages, I don't think that's such a good way to go.

 

[T-hawk]

Here we go.. I know I'm playing pretty quickly on mucco's heels without much discussion, but there isn't much that needs to be discussed at the moment.

That barb archer at Cornelia worries me. I don't want to spend cash to upgrade that warrior, especially since having the unit leave the city to counterattack will put the city into anger. I hate to do it, but the city needs to delay Taj by spending two turns building an elephant.

By the way, Venice _does_ have an extremely useful item to build: Hindu Missionaries. And in Venice, I fire the Scientists since we already have enough of those. We also have enough Artists, and will have enough Merchants if we get the one at Economics. We need Engineers and Prophets, so I hire one of each in Venice, although the Merchant probability from this city will probably still be overwhelmingly high.

Straussburg is a better bet for Prophets as its GP gene pool is entirely that. It starts a Hindu Mandir so it can hire more priests (right now it still needs to work max food to keep growing.) It doesn't need the currently ordered aqueduct; it's got tons of extra health (19) from the river (2), forests (3), and harbor (2).

Tuscany looks good, working max food and building a harbor. Lillehammer's engineer gets fired as that city also needs to work max food; it's 5 below the health cap. Once again, GROW THE CITIES!

Diplo check: Caesar is annoyed but there isn't much we can do about that. Mansa is cautious but will become a great buddy if we can get rid of the Heathen Religion hate. We still need health, so I institute a new Pigs import for Silk.

==========

Between turns, the barb archer whacks our Silks plantation at Cornelia (outside the city radius.) Slight oops as that means we're now exporting our only one to Mansa, but that doesn't actually cause any unhappy cities.

1410 AD: Printing Press has come in. I want to trade it to Mansa for Engineering plus Guilds, but he won't go for that. I start self-research on Guilds.

Longbow near Straussburg takes out that barb axeman.

I find two Hindu Missionaries with active go-to orders in Malinese territory. Mucco, it's considered rude in SGs to leave units on go-to orders past the end of your turn. Let the succeeding leader decide what to do with the units.


1420 AD: Cornelia produces elephant, which takes out that barb archer, though there's another one coming from up north.

Mansa still won't go for PP for Engineering + Guilds, so we'll just continue self-research on the latter.


1430 AD: Mansa will now deal, but I decide to just finish Guilds research myself (2 turns) to trade for Banking instead. We know Mansa has Banking since he's in Mercantilism. Venice starts a crossbow to fend off a barb swordsman that just popped up.

Between turns, the second barb archer at Cornelia suicides against our now-Combat-2 elephant. (Elephants can't get Cover?)


1440 AD: Now a HORSE ARCHER has appeared at Cornelia. Good thing an elephant was my choice of defense here. Also, I have workers at Cornelia chopping some of the northern forests to speed the Taj Mahal, and one re-plantationing the silks.

Interturn, Chichen Itza is built by Rome.


1450 AD: Guilds has finished. Mansa won't deal Banking + Engineering for PP, despite the techs being equal in value.

Well, OK, I swing this deal instead.

I think that's worthwhile. PP doesn't hurt us to give up. We get close to full beaker value for it (2200 for 1700), and more importantly get Mansa to share our religion. Also, we need to start researching Liberalism RIGHT NOW since Mansa is almost done with Education (his offering price for the tech is now very low.) This will give us the option of slingshotting Economics for the Great Merchant.


1460 AD: Venice builds its crossbow, but the unit isn't going to get there in time to kill the swordsman threatening to pillage Straussburg. Instead, I promote a longbow to Shock, getting 85% odds against the sword, which succeeds. And now that we have Optics, Venice starts a caravel to go explore.

And yes, Mansa now has Education.


1480 AD: Cornelia's Elephant wins its fourth fight, against a _second_ barbarian Horse Archer.

1500 AD: Lillehammer celebrates We Love The Monarch Day. My city knows who loves it.

 

[T-hawk]

Screenshot:

 

[T-hawk]

TECH REPORT: Liberalism is due in one turn, so we're a lock for it. Here's the million-dollar question -- do we think Mansa is researching Liberalism or Economics right now? He's had Education for four turns, so if he started with Economics, we likely can't beat him to it after Liberalism unless we slingshot it. If we think he's doing Liberalism, then we can research the (cheaper) Economics ourselves and slingshot a more expensive tech like Rep Parts or Corporation.

I recommend not gambling and just take the sure thing of the Great Merchant. The payoff of free Economics is only 800 beakers less than free Corporation, which I think is a silly risk to take. And the Great Merchant will either be required for our Golden Ages or will turn out to be surplus, in which case he'll be worth 1000+ cash on a trade mission, so we come out ahead anyway.

For the next research, I'd suggest Rep Parts to get lumbermills running, but could also be Gunpowder or Corporation.


GREAT PERSON REPORT: We have enough Scientists and Artists on hand. We need one more Merchant, and Economics is the easy way to get that. We need two Prophets and one Engineer (or vice versa) somewhere, somehow. Straussburg is the best choice for Prophets; its gene pool is unpolluted, and it's building a Mandir in order to hire priests. (We should also build a Jewish Missionary in Tuscany for Straussburg, so that Straussburg can build a second temple and cathedral to hire more priests.)

Venice will put out a GP in twentyish turns, which will have about a 30% chance of being one of the types we need. KEEP the engineer and priest in that city until then. Cornelia will do another in three turns, with about a 36% chance of being useful.


CITY REPORT: Cornelia has Taj due in 7 which will speed up from forest chops. Venice needs health and should build that Grocer. Straussburg is gearing up to make Great Prophets. Tuscany is making us some non-cardboard military. Lillehammer should complete that university to enable Oxford, then do the Hermitage.

Where should the Iron Works go? I would actually put it in Cornelia. If we hire four engineers there, plus GE points from the Hanging Gardens and Iron Works itself, the city should be able to put out a Great Engineer within two or three tries. Note that this requires Oxford to NOT go in the capital! Venice should get Oxford; Straussburg needs to keep its Prophet pool pure, Tuscany hasn't got enough commerce, and Lillehammer has other priorities (Hermitage).


CIVICS REPORT: DO NOT revolt to Free Religion, now that Mansa shares our faith. DO revolt to Free Market as soon as we get it. I recommend also changing back to Slavery at the same time, since we don't need Caste anymore (we have enough of the three GPs that it enables) and Slavery is lower upkeep.

Bureaucracy vs Free Speech is a close call, but I don't think we have enough Towns yet to really benefit from Free Speech, and we don't really care about the culture.

 

[sunrise089]

Lurker's comment: I think the right choice is being made trying to grab a free great merchant with the liberalism win. Taj looks in the bag, but it sure would suck to have a great engineer take it out from under you, I know Mansa had one earlier but I think he used it for a golden age IIRC.

You and I actually would have crossed-posts, but my internet crapped out, and necessitated a restart, so you actually answered my question about the current number of GPs you guys had in your third post above, so thanks.

One thing I notice about this game compared to my last few monarch attempts (including some wins!) is how little military you're getting away with. I know you have some trouble with barbs, but I guess there's an advantage to sitting next to Mansa.

 

[Gusto]

I'm checking in and have the save. I have jury duty today so I'll play either tonight or tomorrow. There's time to post your comments. There's varying discussions on where to build Ironworks and Oxford University. Do we want to use Ironworks to increase wonder production and GE creation in Cornelia or increase military production in Tuscany? I like the idea to convert back to Slavery and will do so in my turn set. I'll try to think of some good uses for whipping in our cities. I'll focus on improving our military situation. It was sad news to hear Straussinator was killed and will try to create an new, improved Straussinator: Straussinator 2: Strauss Day.

 

[mucco]

Mucco, it's considered rude in SGs to leave units on go-to orders past the end of your turn. Let the succeeding leader decide what to do with the units.

Yes, Sir. Won't happen again.

 

[T-hawk]

Do we want to use Ironworks to increase wonder production and GE creation in Cornelia or increase military production in Tuscany?

I think we must. The Great People are the heart, soul, and focus of this variant. Why would we shoot that in the foot to pump up some military production that we don't need? Only Cornelia has the Great People capacity to really get Great Engineers out of the Iron Works. And the Iron Works will also help Cornelia build future wonders (Statue of Liberty and the Broadway series).

Oxford should then go in Venice just by default. Lillehammer and Tuscany would be a waste of it, and I think Straussburg needs to keep a pure Prophet gene pool since it's our only reliable source of that GP. We (will) have all the Merchants we need, so no worries about polluting the gene pool in Venice.

I think our next tech plan should be to beeline Steel for the Iron Works. (That plan also includes Grenadiers for military security.) Yeah, that expires the Parthenon at Chemistry, but that's OK. It's a small loss compared to the +200% GP production from Philosophical and Pacifism. And the days of needing a large quantity of GPs are over; now we need only a few very specific ones.

 

[Gusto]

[EDIT] Fixed BC to AD

I'm back from jury duty and I've been thinking about my turn set. Unfortunately I didn't get to check out the saved all too well this morning. Here are my opening thoughts and moves.

1500 AD
The first thing I did was to make our SG a more hippy variant by renaming a few units.

Here's the new names.
War Elephant -> Jumbo
War Elephant -> Dumbo
Crossbowman -> Felix, someone should understand this reference
Shock Longbowman -> Robin Hood
CG Longbowman -> Merry Man
Catapult -> Easy-Bake Oven
Scouting Worker -> Forrest Gump
Worker -> Moe
Worker -> Larry
Worker -> Curly
Worker -> Shemp
Worker -> Joe
Worker -> Curly Joe
Galley -> Fiesta Boat
Caravel -> Ninia

Diplomacy
Caesar doesn't like us and I expect he'll send an invasion force shortly after he researched Astronomy.

Good active trades will Mansa. I'm going to renegotiate the silk deal. We'll get +2 health with the banana from the grocer. The +2 health from the pig becomes available with the supermarket.

Straussburg
I would prefer to build the grocer and the bank in Straussburg because max available food is 41 at pop 20. We'll have to farm a few tiles to hire priests. I'm suggesting we use this technique in Cornelia. Anyway we can max build two cathedrals (two temples -> one cathedral) so we can build a cathedral in both Straussburg and Cornelia.

Cornelia
After the Taj Mahal, I want to build both the Hindu and Jewish temples and cathedrals so we can start hiring priests (six total). [EDIT] A few of the stooges are eyeing the bulldozers near Cornelia.

Milanese Empire
Mansa needs two more missionaries to fully convert all his cities. I see one is on route so I'll build one more, and than start building Jewish missionaries for our cities.

I'm going to the liquor store to buy some play enhancements , and than find some dinner. Wife is out. I'll play a least five turns later tonight so I'll check the forums for any comments/suggestions when I'm back.

 

[Galileo44]

1500 AD right?

 

[Gusto]

1500 AD right?

True. It's my inherited turn. [EDIT] Yeah! Another player in Connecticut.