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RBD7 SG - Cuban Isolationists

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by Charis, Jan 30, 2002.

  1. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Emperor Difficulty Succession Game -- Cuban Isolationists (RBD7)

    Sirian and I wanted something to fill in the gaps between the other games
    without overtaxing our teammates, so we're staring a 2 person SG with
    some restrictions. (Actually due to the extreme nature of one restriction,
    it will allow a replay of the game under a different ruleset I have in
    mind regarding Communism - hence the Cuba name, but more on that later!! The
    idea is to see how much the starting map affects the outcome vs what the player
    does or doesnt do)

    Cubans (Babylonians: Sci/Rel), Emperor, Huge map, small landmass arch, 11 rnd opps
    Space, Cultural, Diplo victories ONLY. (Almost random, Russia will be in)
    Raging Barbarians to give us SOME combat. Random climate conditions.
    Turns: 10 per round after first round.

    Restrictions for this breed of Isolationists
    - No shipbuilding, never move off your original island
    - No map trading (neither give nor take)
    (It should have the 'feel' of a five city challenge game, but with more cities
    and less initial contact)
    This also means that by end of game you will ONLY see your own island. Should
    make the replay interesting ;p

    --- Starting Turn - Charis ----

    A superstitious but very curious group of people were tired
    with the Nomadic life and start to look for a place to settle. They are led
    by a young man, Fidel Charistro, who has tremendous ambition and drive,
    and seeks to one day very soon become King.

    4000 BC (0) - Well they don't have to look far! A very nice spot indeed,
    right on top of wheat, next to wheat, and on a river, next to a hill.
    Founding on the hill looks attractive BUT that loses the fresh water!
    Can shift one SE from Wheat to plain flood plains - that picks up two more
    floods and a hill at a cost of plains desert and mountain, a great deal.
    Founding on the hill would trade three desert square for three hills (nice)
    but at the cost of the river. Gah! Possibly making a bad choice already,
    Charistro chooses the hill (will blame reading the Jungle Rumble story if
    this is bad!). Staying on wheat square costs a ton of food, moving to floods
    loses a lot of shields, while moving off river looses "quick 12", ability
    to make a hydro or Colossus, but gives defensive bonus. If we end up going
    for culture, more production will help and we'll crank out settlers rather
    then grow to 12, until construction.

    On the hill top the settler sees there is ANOTHER wheat in range, wowza!
    Also not one but two golds. We look to be four squares off the coast.
    Maybe share a wheat and get a city on the coast and river asap. Worker
    stays in place to irrigate. Warrior started - we'll need him asap on
    Emperor. Planning to get Monarchy asap, and hope we're alone on an island.
    With no feel yet for Emperor, I turn aside thoughts of Pyramid rush ;p

    3950 BC (1) - Found Havana on the Hill, and start researching Warrior Code.
    Did I say two gold? Make that *four*!

    3700 BC (6) - Size 2, already need to push luxury rate to 10% (I hear Jungle
    Sounds, but I don't see any jungle!)

    3650 BC (7) - Crud or yay, depending how you look at it. With warrior one
    turn away and road done, it's safe for the worker to hit the hut. It's a
    Bantu settler! I'm already feeling like this start is too strong. And yet...
    on Emperor I'm gonna take what it gives. In a non-variant Monarch game
    it would be "all over" already. Down to the shore he goes to settle Babylon.

    3600 BC (8) - Ok, all traces of guilt are gone. "The citizens of Havana are
    dying of disease. They think conditions in the surrounding flood plain may
    be unhealthy (!) 8-\ Bantu sees a dual-whale spot but it too is off
    the river. Gah! Another river decision. Normally I jump at these but the
    river spot is SO close to the capitol. Move one away to snag both whales,
    or stay on river, crowd the capitol, and laterfound another fishing city
    for the second. Charistro must feel supersititious, he avoids the river.

    3550 BC (9) - With the extra settler, gold and food, gonna start a very
    early temple in Havana. (Rush? We'll see soon) The warrior is going to
    take just a few rounds to scout, given the setback to population due to
    disease. We need recon!

    3500 BC (10) - Atop the mountain we see cattle, some grassland, and tundra.
    (Hmmm... a small patch, or a vast Greenland???)

    3450 BC (11) - Havana borders expand. Did I say four gold, I mean SIX! That
    says something about the age of the earth here. Ah, a fresh water lake to
    our West. Nice. No barbarians or Jags yet, so far so good.

    3350 BC (13) - Coast found a bit north of cattle. That's 8 squares across at
    this point. How small IS this island? Next turn 30% luxury as Havana hits 3.

    3250 BC (15) - Ok, no whipping, as we shift briefly from wheat to gold hills.
    Second cattle and fish seen, and spot on river AND coast identified to
    hit all three. When Babylon finishes his warrior next turn, will send him
    scouting too, since luxury rate high already. (Whale seen but can ONLY
    be reached by settling ON the cattle). Near Babylon he sees another whale
    right next door. I can already see I don't like that spot.

    3050 BC (19) - Tundra game seen to NE, with some bonus grasslands.

    3000 BC (20) - History of the world shows some of our future foes are:
    Zulu, Aztec, English, Japanese, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, and we're
    actually on the eighth slot (of 11). And that game... make it three.

    2900 BC (22) - No wait, four game. Havana starts on Settler.

    2800 BC (24) - We now see that South of Havana are a cluster of mountains,
    ONE ugly spot with at least some fish to found there.

    2710 BC (26) - Nubian tribe teaches us pottery, as they point out more game
    in the tundra (the tundra is starting to look a little extensive.)

    2630 BC (28) - First barbarian sighting, up north. They attack between rounds
    and we survive with 1 hp.

    2550 BC (30) - Settler pops out, and we hit a hut for Masonry.

    EVIDENCE of the PUNGENT WEED! I just now notice that: i) it's 3 a.m. and
    ii) there is a goody hut I missed right nearby that looks rather too much
    like the gold. (Which is itself so numerous I can't count 6 vs 7) Next turn
    the warrior diverts to go hit it.

    2510 BC (31) - Settler nears place to found, our wounded warrior thinks he
    better rest and heal before proceeding. Our next settler heads for the
    game cluster near us to the east.

    2310 BC (36) - Warrior code learned, Mysticism started. With NO other tribes
    seen, this is surely an island. Our northern explorer finds more shore,
    although not sure if he's at furthest extent yet. We defeat a Barbarian
    up North and find a camp, and that hut near us... gave the Wheel. (Hmmm, uh,
    no horses in sight)

    2270 BC (37) - Havana starts another settler. (If there ARE foes around, we
    do have no military. We can now start Bowmen, but if they fight we get
    a way-premature GA. Also, would probably want a Barracks first.
    More weed... duh... of course no horses had been in sight. Now that we
    have wheel I look again and see at least two :)
    Ninevah founded with access to FOUR game, a coast, and bonus grass.
    We defeat the Bar camp (next to the horses which we now recognize)

    2230 BC (38) - Babylon prepares to rush a barracks.

    2110 BC (41) - Horseback riding and Alphabet from huts to north, sweet!
    Island is almost fully mapped out -- Time to turn over the reigns. :p

    I look forward to the colored dot analysis :)

    Take as many turns as seems appropriate at the time for this first round, then
    we'll switch to 10/round.

    Good luck :)
    Charis
     
  2. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Attached is the map after the first round (~40 turns) in 2110 BC.

    I took a screen shot and threw out a very rough look at city placements, but
    it wasn't with the careful consideration some do this :p
    0- Where we started in 4000 BC (not a future site)
    1- These sites aren't in order. 1 is an outpost near lots of gold.
    2- Coastal spot with some game. Could go North one spot if less overlap
    needed with Ninevah (they don't look like food powerhouses though)
    3- Couldn't edit with my simplistic program, I would move one West onto the
    coast, and leave the other game to '9'
    4- Catches horse and gold, but some fog left, might not be 'best' spot
    5- The only habitable spot in the Southern tip, catching 2 gold.
    6- Game in reach, and closing the coast border
    7- There or south one spot to be about right distance from 1.
    8- From location on map only, a good general area for the FP for a nice
    dumbbell empire. May be a better spot nearby
    9- Filling in gap, and catching a stray game
    A- Fishing village, and where I wish I founded Babylon
    (Speaking of which, we might want to rename the Bablyonian city names with
    Carribean/Cuban city names)
    B- Filling out the border, can't see enough for exact placement.
    Depending on FP placement will probably jam in another 1 to 3 cities up there.
    (For 16 to 18 total cities)

    Since this island will be our ONLY source of cities, do NOT take these
    pungent weed first thoughts as anything more than pungent visions. Feel free
    to point out bad choices or improved locations. Your turn will likely decide
    the destiny of most founded sites. Decent chance for oil with the tundra, but
    rubber and aluminum might never show up.

    Hmmmm.... we're isolationists in this game... the drive for coastal cities
    isn't AS great as normal, I now realize...

    Charis
     

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  3. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Too bad you can't attach a file in an "edit". Save attached here.

    The weed has started already?! :smoke:

    Charis
     
  4. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    Haha! Cuba? Greenland is more like it! An isolation variant and we get placed on a snowball. Welp... I'll see what I can do.
     
  5. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

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    I find it humorous that you have a large patch of desert, then a very small swath of grassland, and then frozen tundra. What a weird island.

    Good luck on this variant, guys!
     
  6. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    If we want "challenge", Charis, you can dial that up rather handily, I see. However, for nonhogtied starts in terms of terrain, you're fired. ;)

    What we got here, is a double variant: the one we picked, plus the Eskimo Gambit (carve your homes from the very ice itself, my people, for we have nothing else!)

    In "Rumble" I did move from flood plain to hills, but the hills were still on the river. I'd NEVER move my capital off a river. :smoke: You say "until we get construction", but unless some other civ paddles by in a galley, we're not going to get Construction for millenia. So your "we'll just pump settlers" plan was adopted. Everything else you did looks quite good from here. Well, considering this terrain.

    While I would still have preferred to be on the river, at least the location you moved to is otherwise superior in every way, and will get us many more shields in the way distant future. My hopes for this game are, frankly, not high, but we'll see what we can do.

    Inherited turn: increased science rate, whipped temple at Babylon. Babylon set to build workers next. Click next turn and our warrior is attacked from the barb camp, wins with no damage.

    First turn: attack barb camp, razed, 25 gold.

    Early turns: complete exploration of our land. Marvel at how much tech we have (all those came from huts, you say? Nice). Whip temples at Ur, Ninevah after they complete warriors and grow to size 2.

    I veto "Plan Nine From Outer Space" and found Ashur one square southwest of Charis's 9 spot, which would have wasted a flood plain. My location is also closer to the capital, has no more overlap, and can borrow that upper cattle from Ur at times to vastly speed growth/production. Ashur starts a warrior.

    Middle turns: One of our two roaming warriors returns to meet up with settler for sixth city. Other warrior patrols for barbarians, finds one, fortifies in hills, then LOSES in combat. (Welcome to Emperor). Our last remaining spare warrior is dispatched. More work on the gold hills is undertaken, while some irrigation of flood plains is started.

    While 9 was slightly off, 3 is a complete disaster waiting to happen. It's landlocked, for starters. Also, it's landlocked, has no access to the sea, can't build a harbor, and is landlocked. :eek: That might not be so bad, except 60% of its land is ice and half the rest is overlapped. 3 gets the veto stamp, and our sixth city is founded one square to the left.

    Our reinforcement warrior defeats the barbarian and heads north into the mountains. A barbie horsie is spotted, so I fortify our unit on a mountain. Um... guess she was pissed at Ken or something, because barbie rolls right over our mountain fortified warriors without taking damage. Our "patrols" are now both dead, and Sirian has failed miserably with the military side of his turn, but what can you do when the dice roll up bad for you in the early game? I had the high ground in both these fights and the "odds" were in my favor each time. Oh well. :( (And it's going to get worse before it gets better, folks.) :(

    Barbie says, "Ken you bad bad boy, you." :splat: :spank:

    Granaries are whipped in Ur, Ninevah, and Ashur. Havana once again suffers disease, and drops from size 4 to size 2 AND failed to grow as expected because the PATHETIC automated worker distribution in cities vetoed my assignments when the city size was shrunk. Fearing that we'd drop a third time, to size 1, I look at our 22 shields and whip that granary out. Blah. So now Havana has a granary, and has been whipped. This will mean extra luxuries at times, but I thought it was the best move. Not only do we get a fat ball of ice to live on, but somehow get slapped with all the stored up bouts of disease from other RBD games that we never got hit with, and over what? Like 4 or 5 flood plains? Brutal.

    Babylon makes three workers but then grows too large and I end up building a regular bowman there to keep the peace. while a taxman sits around a few turns.

    Late turns: Ur builds a settler and founds Akkad. Ninevah whips a barracks, starts spearman. Barbie continues her rampage as she rolls over yet another of our troops and raids Ninevah for 9 gold. (Sheesh.) I have a warrior moving in that direction. Ashur also whips barracks, as it too is on the front line. These warriors ain't cutting it, I've lost 3 of 5 fights with them. I want to see some vet bowmen and spearmen.

    Havana builds settler and Cove is founded. Writing is due on the next turn, I urge we head for Literature after that, so we can whip a lot of cheap libraries asap.

    Status: 1250 BC.

    We have temples in our first 6 cities, 5 or 6 workers, a settler due next turn. We have 8 cities, half of them have granaries. The two new settlements are building warriors (for martial law, and because they are safely on the back side away from barb raids). They can whip temples soon. Havana is building a bowman, as it needs more troops to keep order.

    I rate our chances at building an ancient wonder to be less than zero. All we can do is expand quickly and whip temples/libraries as the chance presents. Oh yeah, and we need to build some military to fight off those barbarians. Never have they given me more trouble. Usually the AI's are around to clean up any camps I don't manage to take out quickly, or I win SOME of the battles and use troops garrisoned in the wilds to keep all area visible and prevent more camps from popping up.


    Now for my thoughts on settlements. When dealing with frozen land, there is one, and only one concern: FOOD. Everything is about scrounging more food, because it's in such short supply.

    Here's how it works:

    Need 2 food per population. You get 2 free in your center square, so that leaves room for up to two tundra/forest/hills. That means cities are limited to size TWO without better food sources.

    There are four possible food sources: game squares, water squares (with harbor), fish tiles and whale tiles. That's it. And three of those are in the water.

    Each square with 2 food can add ONE size to your city's potential. Each whale can add TWO size to your city (the whale gives 3 food with harbor, which can pair with an extra forest/hills). Each fish tile can add THREE size to your city (4 food, plus two extra forest or hills). Tundra/forest/hills are mostly useless, unless you have a lot of fish, or a couple nonfrozen land tiles in range (grass is best, but plains or even desert can add to your eventual max size).

    For this game, other than at cities already founded on the edge of the tundra, all remaining cites we can settle are entirely frozen, thus they are all "fishing villages" dependent on the sea for size, and destined never to be high producers. What they can do is boost trade, boost score, boost territory, boost culture (a little) and perhaps build support of various kinds. For that kind of scenerio, the priority is to build everything as close to being IN the water as possible.

    I drew up the following plan, which shows not only locations, but the full maximum potential population/coverage of each city. Maxing food is the top design priority here, but there is the secondary consideration of maxing shields to the best possible degree also (meaning hills are preferable to forest).

    I found six good locations capable of producing genuine "half-cities" that can grow to size 12 or nearly. These are marked in red and green. The purple city is the site for the forbidden palace, picking up three game squares and two hills, which means more shields than ANY other city in the north, plus it's centrally located up there. One small problem: on a huge map, we need sixteen cities (16!) to qualify for Forbidden Palace, and we only have eight right now. That means we have to settle all the red and green locations, plus purple, plus one more (the white dot above Babylon), before we could even start constructing the FP.

    The yellow location is on fresh water, can grow to size 7 and, with a granary, then crank out workers at the pace it's able to build them, without having to invest in an aqueduct first. The other white dots are "size 7" locations that can also crank workers, or, if need be, supply continual draftees in the late game. The two blue dots are "plug the holes" mini-cities able to get two hills apiece into action. They are the lowest priority. We could build eight or ten of them, but that would be counterproductive as we'd eat into "too many cities corruption".

    Also note that Cove will be limited to size 12, that's 11 water tiles and one gold mine mountain. And 8 useless mountains, although maybe one of them will turn up a resource later.

    The worst part of all of this is that we have zero luxuries on our landmass. We have nothing to trade! Except maybe horses or other strategic resources we can't yet see. That's Not Good.

    We should have been called "Eskimos". :whipped:
     

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  7. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    You're up, C. Good luck.
     
  8. Zed-F

    Zed-F Chieftain

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    Holy crow, talk about miserable terrain! Looks like the game is out to get you guys and then some this time... "You might be good enough to take those silly Variant rules into Monarch games, but you're on Emperor now, and I'm playing to win. Bite me!" :lol:
     
  9. LordNocturne

    LordNocturne Chieftain

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    Good Luck, Cuba. The Game dealt you a crappy hand, but you can salvage it... maybe.

    This game should be fun to watch
     
  10. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Our luck has been coming in chunks of "extreme" so far.

    - The terrain has led to aspersions of Eskimo ancestry, not Cuban.
    - But that rock is ours, ours, ours. We no share! Ours ours ours!
    (If you think of Emperor+ games as "holding on for dear life" until you reach Cavalry or Industrial, that's gotta help)
    - Havana area is food central and by (questionable) choice stuck at 6, while food is SCARCE elsewhere
    - I don't think I've ever seen such a "good" set of goody huts
    - I don't think I've seen this much disease in all my other Civ3 games combined

    Yet, there is ONE thing that gives me hope...
    ... if the world is nasty and cold for us, maybe it is worldwide, maybe we're in fact on an ice planet?! :crazyeyes

    One other key thing comes to mind, Sirian, as I ponder our future. The "no ship" rule could mean auto-death. At some point we'll be tartgetted by one, maybe many foes, and they have the option of simply bombarding us back to the stone ages, and there would be absolutely 100% NOTHING we could do about it. We can hurt but not sink the ships with artillery. Gonna have to amend that to "no *transports*, and naval defense ships may not leave our own 'coastal' waters for any reason. That gives us some meager defense even vs a large fleet against us, if we pump artillery to weaken and just 'finish' off with frigates or such.

    To foster more hope, I'm trying to think of endgame scenarios where we have a shot. Lucky lucky endgame resources give a space option, cultural is a thought but with the odds projected for early wonders, ouch, and for diplomacy we'll need to practice the art of bending over backwards. Do you consider a "human" wall (or cats) on the entire coastline as clever or AI exploitation, challenging them to build a marine force? I've used that in one naval game where I started on a dinky little island and was able to keep a razor thin defense force at home while my man-o-wars went to conquer other islands. Just stretching here to think how we can hold on :p

    Charis

    PS In the "parallel" universe, I have to think the mid game will look very different, with a key priority as "getting off our ice rock" by pre-building a invasion task force to let loose when we can sail. Alas, that will be too slow with isolated contact.
     
  11. OneInTen

    OneInTen Darkness bound

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    When I read the game rules, I thought the idea of not building ships was to make it hard in the case of the AI declaring naval war on you. The way I figured it was you were restricting yourself to buying other AI civs to fight the war for you, thus wearing down the opposition and getting them into a position where peace is possible.

    At least that's how I'm planning to play it if the situation arises in a similar style game I'm playing. Iwanted to see if I could build every great wonder whilst stuck on an island by myself and not leaving it (monarch difficulty though) ... I may adopt the map rule though, we'll see what happens when other AIs get over here. So far so good for me since I've gotten all 7 of the ancient wonders ... :D
     
  12. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    No ships == No ships. We'll make do. Artillery can chase them off, and unless they are an immediate neighbor just across the bay, we won't hear from them again for centuries. (You know how many turns it takes at 3 or 4 movement per turn to cross a huge map?) And as for late game ships, we can use Cruise Missiles to target ones with 2 hp left, if the missile hits both of its "shots" the vessel will be sunk. (Can't target ships with 1 hp left, game bug).

    I don't at all mind fortifying our shores. Think occupied France: historically it HAS been done, and HAS required marines to punch through. But... that's a lot of units at 1gpt each. We have a lot of coastline. I think you are also overestimating the threat levels. The AI's mostly come after you for resources, or if you are just TOO weak militarily. Well... we ain't got no resources! :( So why would the AI's WANT to take this rock away from us? :)

    No ships. Of any kind. It can be done. :) And... I'm also looking to maintain a low diplomatic profile, which means NOT penny pinching trade deals no matter how much they are ripping us off (take the deals they offer, continuously, except ones where they offer maps, just pull the maps out of the deal and substitute something else, just not making them pay full market value) and maybe even sucking up a little, if somebody's F8 charts look too daunting -- two things I NEVER do normally. (Usually I am seen by the AI's as the world's most diehard miser. And they aren't shy about letting me know it).

    Diplo win is the one thing I've never accomplished, because I tell uppity civs where to stick it and don't back down from fights. This is a prime chance to go for one. Or... space. We can forget cultural, for that you must grab ancient wonders. If we are the darlings of the world diplomatically, that should lessen our chances of being attacked as long as we aren't so militarily thin as to hold up a sign saying, "Come Spank Us!: :spank: :eek:


    - Sirian


    EDIT: one more note. I've noticed that AI's typically ask for, and offer, 10% +/- the market value. That is, you can always offer them 10% less than they ask and they'll take it. You can ask for 10% more than they offer and they'll pay it. (And it may come out to more in some deals, as past a certain point they only offer cash in chunks of 10, so they may offer 20 gold for something worth 32, because 10% less would be 29 and they won't offer that). SO... in order to figure out HOW to offer them "diplomatically pleasing" deals, find the full market value then knock off 10-11% of the price. They'll be pleased as punch.

    Oh yeah, and those "give them 1 gold" deals you like doing... they don't care. That's negligible, unless it's extremely early in the game. Now giving them 10 gold, or 20, early enough, that can buy a lot of favor. Later you need to give 50, or 100, or a free RoP to some weak civ or a low cost resource to a large civ. As much as the idea of this PAINS me, that is the path to a diplo victory. Penny pinching kills Gracious relations. Hanging up on someone without making a deal is not a penalty action. They don't care. We can probably still make some money off of some civs by offering the small fry continuous RoP's at 15% below market value, for which they will view us as generous. :lol:
     
  13. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    Second round lets both take 15 rather than 10, it's pretty quick going.

    1250 BC (0) - Everything looks in fine shape, except change one city with
    Spearman order to Bowman.

    1225 BC (1) - Start on Iron Working (toward Construction and to see if we have
    any Iron or not ;p)

    1200 BC (2) - 1175(3) - Not much, micromanaging turns

    1150 BC (4) - Aztecs finish the Colossus (so quick it's scary)

    1100 BC (6) - Holguin is founded on Green dot.

    1050 BC (8) - Barbarian horsie wants to lay down some smack. Warrior
    is on the hill, fortifies, and grabs his ankles. Good thing they're
    only 'conscript' strength ;p This is repeated in 1025. "Hills good!"

    1000 BC (9) - Settler now in Ashur area is 'goto' to the FP purple dot.
    The other one is near the east red whale dot. The settler near Ur is
    heading for horsie red dot on west coast.

    950 BC (11) - Cardenas founded at the eastern whale red dot.

    925 BC (12) - Ugh, thought our scouts time was up. Fortied in mountain
    this time to give good vision, it went 2hp-vs-1, then 1-vs-1, then the
    horsie fell (phew!)

    900 BC (13) - Another settler born, at Bablyon. He heads toward blue/purple
    areas, for our next leader to redirect to a red or green.

    850 BC (15) - Happiness starting to get more problematic (well duh Charis,
    build more military!)

    No whipping this turn, so feel free to get it out if needed. :hammer:
    We're razor thin on military, but have gotten a very good jump on settlers. You get to pick our next tech next turn as well (Guessing Literature for Library)

    Good luck with the ice rock!
    Charis

    EDIT- Roger on the "no ships" :eek: In one game I've had they did NOT turn away the ships just when injured, the pounding was continuous and unabated. City improvements and population went poof. I was picturing that here and it wasn't pretty ;p
    As for the silver dollar thing, I've got no hard data either way. It was rather effective in a couple of games I've had, but I am thinking very early game, so that's consistent with your comments.
     
  14. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

    Joined:
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    Iron Working? :( :(

    Iron is useless to us for the following reasons:
    1) We don't need swordsmen to take out a few barbarians. All we need is a couple of veteran troops.
    2) We don't need swordsmen AT ALL. Ever. They are a dead end unit and we should be well past them before any hint of threat arrives (and even if not, horsies are better for defense, they will retreat, can reinforce faster, upgrade, etc etc).
    3) We are a long long way from Feudalism and Chivalry.
    4) The sooner we connect to iron, the more chances for it to vanish on us, even worse when we have no use for it. (If all the iron on our island goes away forever, we're toasty. We can't pick up and go get any more, and with a map blackout, we MAY even not be able to trade with anybody until AIRPORTS come online, if a map line of sight is required for harbors).
    5) "To see if we have iron or not" might scratch an itch of curioisity, but is otherwise of no practical use. Even if we have none, we can't do anything about it, and either way it won't affect anything we're doing in the short term.

    Those are turns lost where our core cities could have had libraries to boost our culture and research. Or... harbors. Or courthouses. Or SOMETHING of shorter term use.

    My conclusion: Iron Working = :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

    :)


    Anyway... Yes, I opted to research Literature next. After that, PLEASE don't go for Construction as we have no use for aqueducts yet (and can't afford colleseums) until we first have courthouses and harbors so that we can have more than three cities MAKE IT to size 6. :)

    We had 10 cities when my turn began. I settled 10 more. There are only 2 sites left to get, and we need to get the light blue dot to be sure that no curious AI's plop down up there.

    In 690BC, Egypt build the Pyramids (and entered their golden age, if they hadn't already). China got the Oracle the following turn. It's POSSIBLE, on an archipelago map, that not enough AI's got together by this point to have traded up to having Literature or Mapmaking, so it could be that this ended the cascade. In any event, I committed us to pursue a world wonder. Ur is building Palace (at 700 shields to complete, currently, so we have plenty of time). Ideally, we want the Great Library. That would catch us up instantly on tech when we make contact with 2+ civs, even if that doesn't take place for 1000's of years, as the library won't go obsolete until WE get Education. Secondarily, take anything else we can get, even the Lighthouse if that's the only option. Sistine would be the one we would most want but we may not get that far in time to get it with this attempt.

    I used Havana to crank 4 more workers, so we now have 9 total. Most are in the Ur area, improving to speed the wonder construction. Havana is at max size and could be running one wheat and 5 hills, if more hills are mined. Both Ashur and Ninevah badly need mines. DO NOT connect the iron, for reasons I listed above.

    I urge you to think long term. All these ancient wars in the other RBD games may be skewing your perspective. Spears can upgrade all the way through. Bowmen are dead end. Now that all the barbs are eliminated, never to be heard from again, warriors are only useful while we remain in despotism, or if we get Monarchy before Republic. Better a warrior than a city sitting around with entertainers and taxmen at size 1-3, but try to build veteran spears where possible.

    Granaries are MOST urgent in cities that will be scrounging for food their whole existence. These will vastly speed growth, which will boost trade. Harbors, courthouses... the trick to them is a whip-wait-whip. You can get 1 shield going, whip a barracks, flip it to courthouse/harbor, wait another turn for it to go to 41, then whip again. Bang, 80 shields, only 2 pop whipped, 2 extra turns taken. We'll have to do some of this in the north. All those red, white and green dots need the harbor first, too (as much as it pains me to delay courthouses). Another trick is to get 1 shield, whip a barracks, then flip to granary or courthouse/harbor. This is the best plan for cities with a single game in range, as they crank more food per turn at size 1 than they do waiting around on size 2. The trick is this: whip at 39 shields needed (29 for temples), so that the max number of shields are gained. Do this by any means necessary and available. It doesn't pay to get only 20-30 shields out of a whipping. You'd do better to build a warrior in that time, you see, get the warrior "free" or with 1 turn delay, and whip a larger amount of shields.

    On emperor, you also NEED a troop in the city, as a whipped city with no troops in it and no temple is unhappy at SIZE ONE. So we either have to send troops from other cities, or let a city build a warrior before we do anything else. So what I've done is this: all the cities with a troop already in place are set to build granaries. (This doubles the rate at which future whippings could take place). All the cities where a troop couldn't be spared were allowed to build their own temple naturally (if they could muster 2 shields per turn) or have been set to build a warrior first, then to whip the temple as soon as they grow to size 2. You can rearrange the plans all you like, but if you completely ignore the whip on your turns, our growth curve is going to suffer. On the other hand, we don't want to whip any of these cities more than about 4 total times. That's one for temple, one for granary, one or two for harbor, and then maybe one more (toward courthouse or library). As to what to build first, I had choice of only granary or temple. If harbor were an option, I might choose that, too. I'd definitely opt for courthouse in Ice Palace (purple dot).

    Cove and Akkad ended up building their temples the normal way. They are both set to whip granaries soon, Cove in 3, Akkad in 6. I urge that Havana be left at size 6, use it to build barracks and crank the vet units, since it has no access to placeholders, and if you keep shrinking it to make settlers/workers, we lose gold, with our economy kind of weakish. Ur is going to be stuck a long, long time with no library (wouldn't have had to be that way if Literature were done first -- poke, prod, wink ;) -- but too late now). But that was our ONLY hope to grab a wonder, and I'm determined to get something for us. Ur is our only southern city on fresh water, although with our happiness situation the way it is, seems kind of doubtful we can grow it to 7 without more improvements.

    My biggest concern right now is what the dark map will do to us. I didn't quite think it through in terms of it preventing us from doing any trading at all, ever. If that's the case, we really bit off a lot here.

    Oh one more thing. You took 41 turns the first time, and 16 this time. I took 29 last time to even it out, but this time I said fooey and left you to fix it. :) Thus 530BC. Our situation is looking more and more bleak the more I think about it. Good luck with squeezing milk out of THIS fuzzy coconut. :)


    - Sirian
     
  15. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    Here's a fresh pass at the settlement plan. Nothing major has changed, just shuffled control of a few squares around. Got a hills for San Cyreno. Swapped some game around. This is the "at the end of the day" outlook. I expect lots of temporary borrowing and shuffing back and forth. The one place we should NOT borrow is at Guantanamo Bay. It should keep its grimy hands off the forest-game squares needed by Ice Palace. Every round we have the Forbidden Palace will be a round with much extra bounty of trade and production, so everything else in the north must bow to the need for Ice Palace, wherever there is conflict.

    The south, too, has a lot of sharing. This sort of game is NOT one where Cy would thrive, as zooming the cities and micromanaging "borrowed" terrain to see which city has a more urgent need at any given period is not something he would undertake. :) There were literally times when I would have that third wheat for Havana one turn, for Babylon the next, Havana, Havana, Babylon Babylon. Occasionally they both really needed it and I had to choose (Havana, usually). Same with Ur and Ashur, that one gets flipped around a lot on my turn, and now also Ur and Akkad. That's probably the worst part of a game with packed cities, the extra work of managing the overlap efficiently. If left to the devices of the automated selection, nothing short of complete disaster would ensue. :eek:


    - Sirian
     

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  16. Jaffa Tamarin

    Jaffa Tamarin Monkey Cult

    Joined:
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    Actually, I believe you get 40 shields per whip, so long as you have at least one shield invested. So for anything that costs more than 40 shields, you should whip when 40 shields remain, not wait for 39 (and for your harbor/courthouse trick, you should be able to do the second whip immediately, without the wait turn between).

    Also, I'm curious, are you going to allow youselves to build embassies? Or will the automatic reveal of the foreign capital location contravene your 'no maps' rule?

    --
    Jaffa
     
  17. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

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    I just love the names of the new cities!!

    :hammer: Cetacean Observatory -- San Cyreno -- San Charisso -- El Chuca :hammer: and of course...

    Guantanamo Bay :tank:

    Jaffa... not quite on the whipping. The number of citizens is [ #shields / 20 ] which is ROUNDED DOWN and has a minimum of 1. It's also doubled iirc if you have NO shields in the box yet. So 1..39 is one citizen, 40..59 is two, 60..79 is three if done in one pass, better to do as shift-to-39, whip, un-shift-to-now-40, wait one turn, whip to completion.

    | EDIT- Ah, one point where I got confused on this. I had like 8 turns to do something with 5 shields per turn, so I figure 40 shields. Yet it was only one citizen to rush. Ah!! You can do 40. In reality there were 38 shields left, which do take 8 turns at 5/turn |

    Good question on the embassies. I imagine that they will choose to build embassies with us, which we can't stop. That will also show their capitol. Can't do anything about that. Now will we use espionage? Wasn't disallowed, too early to tell if/how useful.

    Sirian... yes I've already been "swapping" tiles between cities on occasion, sorta of a macro-micromanagement :cool: Now *THIS* is a builders game!! (When you only have straw and mud to build your castles) It's up my alley (for temperament anyway, I'm improving on figuring out what needs to be shifted)

    Now tundra improvement into better terrain was a CivII only feature, eh?

    Charis reviews the charges of illegal use of pungent weed on the Iron Working and his decision is... guilty as charged! :eek:

    I must have been feeling a combo of the following at the time: i) Sirians reports of barbarian brutality sound really nasty, we better develop a counter, ii) if there are no horsies and no iron on this rock, we can pack in it right now, iii) i must cover up a bad decision not to start on a river by getting an aqueduct!! :smoke:
    It must be the same advisor who 'counts turns' who made this science decision. (Still, we had no idle time for libraries in that phase anyway, I don't think the damage was extensive.)
    Roger on avoiding Construction until later, in any case, and not connecting the iron. (Can we hide it from the AI's?!? :scan:)

    > We had 10 cities when my turn began. I settled 10 more.
    Excellent

    > I committed us to pursue a world wonder.
    This may turn out later to be a "MVP move", time will tell. I like it. (A little surprising after the "chance at a wonder is less than 0%", but maybe that was referring to ancient wonders.)

    > Sistine would be the one we would most want but we may not get that far in time to get it with this attempt.

    By the time the shields are ready Fission will be known (j/k)

    > I urge you to think long term. All these ancient wars in the
    > other RBD games may be skewing your perspective. Spears can
    > upgrade all the way through. Bowmen are dead end.

    Good point, I should have realized this. (Playing at 2am I do miss somethings I shouldn't) I was paranoid about the Barbarians. The horses especially cry to BE attacked rather than wait to be attacked, and Bowmen are better suited for that. It was a mix of flashbacks from the ancient wars and from the one or two emp/deity games I've tried where if you don't make the BEST units you can RIGHT NOW, you'll never live to see even Monarchy.

    > Granaries are MOST urgent in cities that will be scrounging for food their whole existence.... the trick is to whip-wait-whip.

    Good tip, I'm all over that. In fact I just finished writing up that key trick in a "Micromanagement Guide" I'm working on :king:

    > On the other hand, we don't want to whip any of these cities more than about 4 total times. That's one for temple, one for granary, one or two for harbor, and then maybe one more (toward courthouse or library).

    One for courthouse, one for library, one for barracks, one for... oops, no, bad me.

    > I'd definitely opt for courthouse in Ice Palace (purple dot).
    Although you don't need one once FP built, 80 shields vs 300 shields means that when corruption in FP site is more than 4 of 15 lost, that's the better choice. (We're probably losing half shields?)

    What is the whipping 'memory', any more info? I was under the impression it's 20 turns per item whipped. If not cumulative, that would mean an insignificant impact if whipping was once per 20 turns. If cumulative, your fourth whip is remembered for 80 turns, etc... So the cumulative memory effect is 20, 60, 120, 200, 300...

    > I urge that Havana be left at size 6, use it to build barracks and
    > crank the vet units

    Sounds about right. I wonder what's about right to keep the AI from thinking "FRESH MEAT!" 3 top-defense units per city? (Us having a key resource they lack not withstanding)

    > My biggest concern right now is what the dark map will do to us. I didn't quite think it through in terms of it preventing us from doing any trading at all, ever.

    Oh the AI will find us, and once one finds us, they'll sell contact and we're "in the loop".

    I'm feeling less overwhelmed with bleakness for some odd reason at this point, now that the rock is a full fledged nation :)

    Charis
     
  18. OneInTen

    OneInTen Darkness bound

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    brisbane.qld.au
    I've got a glimmer of hope for you - you CAN trade with people without seeing the city you're trading to. I thought you couldn't for a few turns until Germany popped up on the list ... perhaps it was because they got the requisite advance (Navigation), but I have a feeling that maybe it was also since they had LOS to me that was enough.

    So there is light a long way down the tunnel. ;)
     
  19. Charis

    Charis Realms Beyond

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Midwest, USA
    530 BC (0) - Everything looks fine. Watching the in-between turn it's funny...
    The Barbarian armada is our "coastal defense" right now :p

    510 BC (1) - Notice no settlers for the last two spots around or in progress,
    so put set up Ashur and Bablyon to do this before getting back to vet
    production.

    490 BC (2) - Ashur and Cardenas expand borders. Ice Palace gets noticed as
    in need of a granary whipping in two turns, which will help it grow faster.

    470 BC (3) - Literature is complete. I choose Map Making!
    Just kidding, no. I take... Code of Laws. Courthouses are needed, certain
    advisors point out. Plus opposite choice of Monarchy first wouldn't work
    if you plan to whip a courthouse or two. Ur hits size six and is looking
    less happy. Sliding luxury to 30% gives +8/turn, while making a tax collector
    out of a food square leaves us at zero food surplus (alright since at size 6)
    and +11/turn, so we do that. Cove at 39 gets granary whipping.

    450 BC (4) - Havana starts a Library. Santa Rosa starts a Granary. The Cove
    a Warrior (consider switching). I mine the leave the horse near Ur but
    leave it unconnected, about to connect the horse near San Charisso.


    430 BC (5) - The domestic advisor reminds Charis that Map Making is not JUST
    for ships, but also for Harbors. :blush:

    His confidence goes down and instead of whipping the Ice Palace, switches
    to temple which will complete in 4 turns, the same time it will grow to
    size 3. :confused:

    410 BC (6) - Ninevah whips library, Akkad a granary, El Chupa a temple.

    390 BC (7) - Settler up from Ashur, goes to white dot.

    370 BC (8) - Settler up from Bablyon, heads to blue dot. (Both now back on vets)
    Ashur is unhappy, and a food worker is made tax collector (which puts it
    at zero growth for the moment)

    350 BC (9) - Havana finishes on library, starts vet Spear. San Cyreno
    Cardenas whips its granary now with 38 left (it needs a warrior there asap)

    To even out year (and count) I'm turning over now. Akkad can either whip its
    library this turn, or you can switch. Due for whipping soon: San Roberto (g4),
    (OR switch to temple and plain build), San Rosina (g5), Cetacean (g2). Ellipi
    can finish it's library, switch to a military unit or something else (it may
    get unhappy when it hits 3). To point out what the 'governor' does, he tried
    to steal the Ice Palace's game for El Chupa. Feel free to vary any production
    orders (and continue to clue me in better choices). (I'm sorta expecting the "well it would be nice if I could build HARBORS which we desperately need" and weed accusations, but you will be able to get to FP via courthouse quicker)

    Good luck,
    Charis
     
  20. Sirian

    Sirian Civ Map Programmer

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    While I thought Literature was the best choice after writing, a case could have been made for maps or laws, as those offer some short term options. The iron didn't offer us anything in the short term for this scenerio.

    Three defenders per city? Well, see, we have two conflicting interests here. First, we need enough force to deter aggression, or to fight off an invasion. Second, we need as much science as we can muster, which means we can't afford too much military. I would be sorely tempted to gambit for one (1!) defender per city in the north, with a force of horsies and catapults at Ice Palace to respond to any landings. Two defenders in the south, at our more vital (and appealing) cities, with a horsie-catapult force at Havana. Go as thin as we dare. Once contact comes, we will have to beef things up a little.

    Now this IS a little risky, but I pretty much think we should be disbanding all those warriors sooner rather than later. On the other hand, if contact is slow in coming, we're going to be sitting around doing not much of anything waiting on tech, at times, and might as well build units when that's the case. I'm a TOTAL opponent of wealth "building" in the early game as even one shield per turn is worth more, and it really is usually good to build more military if all the infrastructure options are complete, until perhaps the industrial age when more and more units are just budget busters if your strategy is peaceful victory.


    - Sirian
     

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