RBD7 SG - Cuban Isolationists

[Charis]

An excellent turn, on many fronts!

(Zed, I'm hoping/assuming he didn't cash in bowmen, but I was sure to make at least a few back when spearmen were the smarter choice. And yes, killing off something like a 1hp longbowman invader is about the only way he'll score a victory)

Glad too you hadn't seen the 'recon' report

> Inherited turn: I marvel at the veto that took place in regard to
> growing our cities. Charis says "to stay on max shields while
It wasn't so much a veto as a small detour. Those worker changes came around turn 6-7 just to get a few more shields in, it wasn't a full-turn veto. One reason was that I would hate to see us come into the modern age, with totally new priorities, and be stuck needing that aqeuduct but with only 8 shields done on it instead of 1/2 or 3/4 done.

> Almost every city in the north is thus reshuffled back to max
> food. I can at least get 10 turns of that in before the next veto.

hehe

> I also vetoed the wealth, and used all those cities to make
> replacements for the MASS of units I just disbanded to speed
good, this wasn't a plan as much as a 'best i can see for these last two or three turns'

> I melded workers into San Charisso, Elippi and Akkad.
One other reason I knew pushing shields vs food wouldn't kill us

> Embassies established.
What's the advantage of us doing the establishment rather than letting them pay for it? Not just for seeing their city? A diplo boost?

> We receive the following eighteen techs from the Library:
Woohoo! What a great laundry list!!

Gunpowder, Astronomy, Metallurgy, Democracy and Free Art from the GL, gotta love it!

> We broker to Zululand, bringing them nearly up to date for
> Saltpeter, Spices, RoP, and mucho moolah. Cuban people don't
> know what the heck to do with "luxury goods" -- they have
> never seen such things before.

Saltpeter???? woo!! In my OCC game, when you got a strategic resource for 20 turns, the entire production and cash focus shifted. You would only have that resource for a very short time and might not see it for another 100 turns. The KEY thing was to on turn 19 or 20, start something that required the resource. You can 'continue' building it although lacking, just can't choose to start something new that takes it.

Zero research for sure for now, perhaps whenever we have a key strat resource. Also good idea on Coastal fortress. Some musket are good, but fortunately riflemen don't need saltpeter, so unless we get invaded before then, total upgrade of all defenders isn't "primary".

> As of this point, "we have an average military", or better
that'll work! (especially on Emperor)

> I set all our interior cities on banks. Why banks? Because ...
Banks seem a good choice, science via banking Those will stay unless a 'saltpeter' item needs to be made there first.

> Also, we NEED Wall Street, preferably asap.
Good point.

In position to build a wonder and Shakespeare is our best bet? Oh well. Let's go bust a cascade.

It will take me a while to adjust my thoughts to all the new techs and options available...

Charis

 

[Zed-F]

Ozymandious,

Oddly enough, while Newton's is a scientific wonder, Copernicus is not. IIRC it's exploratory, probably because it's parent tech is exploratory in nature, and because Firaxis needed to balance out the wonders a bit (there's lots of other scientific ones,) even though the wonder itself is more science-oriented.

 

[Sirian]

Your Cubans are really Babs in disguise, right? That means you need exactly 1 religious and 1 scientific wonder to get a golden age. - Zed

I know I've seen some instances where a GA started without having "both" civ traits built. So I went back to track them down, and found that all of them involved the Colossus and a Commercial civ (India, England, France, the first two with just Colossus, France with that plus Great Wall). Others that I THOUGHT also fit the category turned out to be the case that a UU had already set off the GA earlier, rendering the point unknowable. Several instances where multiple wonders of one trait (Germany with two or three scientific, America with three industrious) had not set off a GA. So it could be that you are right, and the Colossus happens to have three traits: Expansionistic, Commercial, Religious.

Either way, the point is moot. We can only get what we can get, and whether or not we have a shot at a wonder-induced GA has no impact on our ability to try to get the last two midieval wonders. They'd be worth it anyway. We DO retain the option to build Bowmen even though longbows are on the scene (wish I knew what's up with that inconsistency) and we have a few bowmen anyway. Perhaps we have a shot at it if we get invaded some time, though I hope that never comes to pass.

What's the advantage of us doing the establishment rather than letting them pay for it? Not just for seeing their city? A diplo boost? - Charis

Big time. First there's a big boost initially (one reason you often see lots of "polite" after I've taken a turn, as I'll not dilly dally around to scrounge a few pennies), but then we also gain immediate access to RoP potential, which ongoing provides a continuing boost, and in the case of small fry, can pretty much recoup the cost spent on the embassy as well as help to fend off war -- not in all cases, but many.

We're going for a diplo win, and just spent 2k on contacts, no sense quibbling over the cost of a few embassies.

Those worker changes came around turn 6-7 just to get a few more shields in, it wasn't a full-turn veto.

It sure looked like one! Guantanamo was still size 3! Several others were still size four! I don't think they got a single food, you sure you didn't change them at the start of your turn?

Every worker I melded was into a city of size 7+. Going five turns on max food to grow (and get more trade into play) from size 3 or 4 to 6 isn't much of a big deal. Takes twice as much sacrifice after that, so the time to conserve our workers is when the cities are best able to grow for themselves.

Definitely lots of new stuff to be building. Luckily, we don't really need to build more military, just upgrade the ones we spent 1000 years building.


- Sirian

 

[Zed-F]

I'd agree about the Colossus seeming to have Commercial as well as its listed attributes. My point was not that it's not worthwhile to grab the remaining wonders if you can (obviously it is worthwhile); it was that you ought not to be surprised if you don't a golden age out of them.

 

[Ozymandous]

Zed, thanks for the clarification! I guess assuming the Observatory was Scientific what had me in trouble to begin with.. (Gee, it boosts science rate in that city by 50% but is not scientific, imagine that!)

Question to Sirian and Charis:

What is the top size you hope to get most of the cities up north? For example, will Ice Palace ever get above size 5? I don't remember railroads boosting food from a forest but I will be the first to admit I haven't looked specifically into that.

I assume the "fishing villages" are mainly for score, diplomacy leverage and to gather as much commerce as possible from less optimal areas of the map?

 

[Sirian]

For city sizes, look back earlier in the thread for the plan. I laid out every single tile assignment for cities in the north. Rails make no difference in the cold, except to pull another shield off a hill, or to make mined tundra equal to a forest.


By the by, Charis, we can swap to democracy at any point, but I figure there's no use until our wonders are finished. If one turn lost cost us a wonder, we'd be beating our heads on the desk.

Oh... and mining one of the plains at Havana could get it to 25 shields per turn, shaving a turn off university and also our shot at Newton -- at no cost. Workers are right there, too.


- Sirian

 

[Mardoc]

18 TECHS?!?!?!? I am deeply impressed.

 

[Charis]

El Presidente del Charis surveyed the situation and was utterly
taken aback. He had been told things were "different" from the old days,
but the magnitude of the changes was virtually beyond his limited grasp.
In a nutshell... we were not alone... (That is one comical world map
we have though!)

1250 AD (0) - Pres. Charis gets out the veto pen and... puts it down, too
confused to even think straight! He curses the backwards Romans for
being so close and not finding us. Since last time we can now build
Longbowmen (and yet as you point out, Bowmen), Muskets, Knights, Cannons,
Bank, Univ, and Shakespeare's Theatre and Smiths. Everyone and his brother
is working on Smiths.

Ugh! Or should I say, bug? Looking at Zulus and treaty I notice they don't
have democracy. What will they offer? Wow, 20 gold and 25 gpt, and their
territory map. Click off that last puppy and... huh? "They'll NEVER accept
that!" Crimeny!! In this instance it's not so bad though, I can manually
ask for 24 gpt, less if I want to be "generous".

In this new world order, do we sell off this last tech we'll ever have "first"??
Seems it could give lots of gold, great attitude, and might allow us to bring
the whole wolrd ahead in research in a way they appreciate us. Alternately,
save brokering techs to get strategic resources. Let's see who else has or is
missing Democracy. Our German buddies didnt get the GL roll-in, they're way
backwards AND poor. Chinese, Egyptians, Aztecs, Zulus and Greeks are the
'players' in this game. Aztecs have *six* extra gems and no sea path to us.
Russia nine extra wines, wow!! Early lumped-resource earth or what??
It seems five civs are below us, hopelessly behind and with nothing to trade,
and five are equal or just marginally ahead. Of those all have democracy but
the Zulus, so selling to them seems wise. It is done. (for only 23 gpt)

Regarding Democracy for us... with a wonder in progress and precious saltpeter
in our hands for a few turns, I'll pass on a revolt for now. (Although, gosh...
it's just one turn for us as religious)

Military? 32 workers, 19 spear(preMuskets), 11 pike(preM), 1 longbow, 11musk,
6 knight, 11 cannon, 3 bowmen (GAwannabees), 4 swords. When convenient
those swords and longbow have to go, and we should update the defenders while
we have saltypeter.

1255 AD (1) - Babylon and Cove start Banks. Here and in next few turns, we do
the 'dance' and upgrade spears, then pikes.

1275 AD (5) - Peek at F4 for a view of other leaders' happiness. Greece seems
a bit iffy. He's cautious, and has Mil Tradition for sale. At 55 gpt, too
much right now, but we take an RoP for slightly above cost at 5 gpt. He's
now polite. (RoP seems sorta anti-isolationist, but we've done it before here)

1285 AD (7) - Zulus declare war on the Chinese (!!!???) Well, I'm delighted to
see someone try to knock down the world superpower a notch, but... is this
going to spell trouble for Zululand? (Will China eat their saltpeter?!)

Crud! Crud! Crud! Aztec's complete Shakespeare's theater in Teotihuacan
The Chinese swap over to Smith's. We're short by *4* turns at Ur.
We switch to Smith's, 15 away, but expect to lose. Ack... No one is
building Newton. Could we discover Gravity before anyone builds Smith?
Well... we can go to 90% sci and finish Physics in 4 turns *still* at a
surplus of 38 (due to 365gpt from other civs atm). Four more for Gravity
mean 8 turns. Chance that Smiths will be complete in greater than 8 but less
than 15? Kind of slim. Currently we're running +597, so going 4-turn has a
total cost of 2200 gold, or over 20 turns, we could pay 110 gpt and make
out even financially. (Of course that route gives another civ a lot of cash)
Enough weed economics, we have an advantage the AI's dont, prebuilding.
Since Ur is not capitol we can swap out to Palace and then fairly quickly
get Gravity if we hear "Someone is building Newtons". Only if a nearly finished
Smiths cascades into it would there be trouble. No need to spendrush now.
Just to gauge price, cost of Physics from China is 1300 gold for best deal.
The most efficient research rather than pay would be 1800ish gold in 5 turns.
That seems better than making the strongest country richer. Rather than burn
through this kind of cash, I'll postpone that decision to our next leader's
turn.

1290 AD (8) - Disbanded a swordsman in Fort Knox to shave bank time off 1 turn.
Also backing off total number of mil units to offset gain in modern units.

1300 AD (10) - Finishing up business, nothing too extensive.

Bank status: Havana, Fort Knox, IcePalace. Babylon in 12, Ashur in 14, Akkad in 17.
So in about 14 turns we can start Wall Street. Any cities beyond these going for
bank or univ, if you want an extra saltpeter unit, get 'em while you can

Military status: now 98 units, with 44 muskets (2 stationed per city), 13 cannon,
6 knight, 3 bowman. None in production. The Musket about to enter cove is last dance.

Wonders: No one has finished Smith yet. We're 11 turns away, I'm still thinking
we'll miss it. As soon as someone else starts Newton, finish research on Physics
and Gravity and we have Newton in 8 turns. (May want to go for Newton's anyway,
it's better than Smith's)

Diplo: Everyone looks happy and polite
Current price on Physics now down to 1000, Mil Tradition to 900. (If you buy
the latter, can upgrade Knights to Cavs and start a half-dozen more cavs,
would last us and mean no more salt needed for quite some time) If you want
about 6gpt you can sell Chivalry to Japan. The physics price above was from
Chinese or Egypt, Greece, the Aztecs want more. Mil Trad for FreeArtistry
and 250 is avail from Zulus. Germany would buy Democracy for 13 gpt range.
There's nine turns left on the saltpeter, so I won't see it again this century.
(Maxing science right now gets us Physics in 3 turns at +34, for cost of 1800)

Finances? All upgrades done, 3514 in treasury and +623 per turn. Is that
fiscally responsible?

Others: National Arbor day was a tremendous success. After railroads, we can
chop 'em all down and re-mine Every Coastal city has or is finishing up
a Coastal Fortress. The one exception is Ur, busy with wondering.
You may want to take the 1 turn disruption to go Democracy now. (Anarchy,
switch all to entertainers as needed, reverse next turn after choosing Democ)
Almost off topic: patch 1.17f is due soon. Might only fix two 'cheat' bugs
on bombardment and map revealing which would have zero impact on our games.
We'll see in the readme what if anything else changed.

Good luck,
Charis

 

[Sirian]

WTH? I -SAW- the Aztecs start Shakespeare's! Even with a GA running, they were cranking over 40 shields per turn, maybe more, without a factory on hand? Sheesh.

Well, nobody promised us "fair". Heh.

- Sirian

 

[smegged]

Check if they were at war with someone. They may have been at war before contact and gotten a great leader. 40 sheilds before factories sounds a little severe

 

[Sirian]

Inherited Turn: Ha! Some cities are running too much food. They had to be put back on max shields immediately.

Charis disbanded my unit of longbows? Heh. I paid good cash to upgrade those! It's just so ironic, how I'm leaning toward "lean" while he's beefing the military, then I lean toward beef and he's trimming the fat. Well, no matter in this case. I trade Free Artistry and some cash for Military Tradition, upgrade all our knights, then set Havana, Chupa and Icy to cav production. We should end up with 13 or 14 total.

OK, let's see here. China will offer Physics for map and 910, greece and aztecs want 950, Cleo wants 990. Charis is right about handing over a grand to the world's largest civ, but... Greece will get a free tech at Nationalism while China will not. Maybe I should have bought from the Aztecs, but... I cheaped out and bought it from China. Over 1k in cash, but not much over.

Oh now THAT'S interesting. They already have Theory of Gravity, must have just gotten it this turn, as they have not started Newton yet according to F7. Nobody else has it yet. Considering that my "safer" plan of Grab Shakespeare fell through, there's really no choice here at all. 2nd-civ prices? Yeah, costly.

Remainder of our treasury (2600ish) and 48 gpt to China for ToG, miser price.
Alex offers beans, he must be close to researching it, so he gets skipped for the moment.
ToG to Egypt for 60-something gpt, miser.
ToG to Aztecs for 50-something gpt, miser.
Physics to Zulus at diplo price, then ToG for miser price.
ToG to Greece for 20-something gpt, diplo price.

Well not bad, really. 3600 out, 2600 in, we got the tech, and the wonder, for net 1000 gold, as long as nobody renegs before 20 are up. Ur swapped off Smith. Oh neat, due next turn AND no shields wasted. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

Two techs to Russia @ diplo.
Astronomy to Rome @ diplo.
Sold a tech to Iro @ diplo.
Germany's broke. Japan is scraping together some nickels, I'll wait one more turn.

Might as well be generous with the small fry, where it hurts less, and pinch pennies on the mega deals. Nobody has yet called us "cheap bastards" that I've seen -- like I always get in my other games -- so the effort to bend over backward to give them attactive deals most of the time seems to be working.


1305AD: Newton's University completed in Ur. Set to build its Coastal Fort next.

China has Magnetism now. Uh... no thanks, we'll wait on this one.

I start our workers chopping down some forests. Every tundra tile with a mine on it is virgin, and has not been planted or harvested. Every bare tundra has been lumberjacked. (See? Told you those mines would come in handy: markers!)

Tech to Japan @ diplo.
Two more techs to Russia @ diplo.
Another tech to Rome @ diplo -- OOPS, miser. He moaned about the deal. Guess I miscalculated that one?

1310AD: Ellipi grew too large on Charis's turn. See, we only have these Zulu spices for 20 turns. The benefit is not worth the cost, I only took that one deal for diplomatic purposes. So every city we have currently has more happiness than it's going to. High food cities (Havana, Babylon, Ur) can cope with an entertainer, but all the rest need to be kept in check, or, as Charis pointed out recently, they'll be stuck on less-than-max shield production. Ellipi finishes its coastal fort, so I set it to skim a worker at 1 food deficit.

Slow day at the brokerage house. I think I sold one tech to Russia and one to Germany.

1315AD: Good opportunity to swap over to democracy. Cuba revolts! All cities swapped to max food, entertainers hired in several locations.

1320AD: Democracy! Russia signs alliance with Zulus, declares war on China. Heh. Guess RBD3 is not the only game in which Cathy has lost her mind.

1325AD: Aztecs build Smith's Trading Company. Yep yep yep, that one was never within our reach. Well, at least not after we had to scrap a wonder's worth of placeholder shields back when the early middle age wonders were cascaded off through five consecutive turns. They sure made hay with their golden age, didn't they? Heh. So as it turns out, Newton's was the ONLY one we ever had a shot at, and good thing the Chinese had the tech ready and we had the cash burning a hole in our accounts, as I was giving serious consideration to rushing two banks and using Ur's progress on Wall Street rather than lose it all.

Well now, Greece and Aztecs have gotten hold of Magnetism. Time to buy in.

1300ish gold to Aztecs for Magnetism @ miser.
We have entered a new age!

Nationalism to China for 87gpt, 100ish cash and RoP. (Below market, sadly, but not by much and it was all they could afford).

Nationalism back to Aztecs (4th prices, Greece already had the tech, as I pointed out that they would) for most of the cash we gave them, about 1150.

Zulu and Egypt too poor to pay for Magnetism at anywhere near the market price.

More brokering with all small fries who can afford anything.

Now... the next big decision. To research or not to research. For is it nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous research costs...

9 turns at 90% science (must run 10% lux or our whole civ would collapse) to get steam. Every civ on the planet is now broke except for Aztecs and Greece. We're sittin on about 4.5k, despite my purchases.

Continue to sit back? But... what if they all research Communism first? Then what? We could be sittin here on our thumbs for 15 or 20 turns.

I leave our fastest two bank producers on banks, so we can qualify for Wall Street soon. (We have three, need two more). Our three cavalry producers are left alone (they are the ones who already have banks anyway). The rest of our cities are swapped to university, except for a couple slow ones still on colleseum or market, or one still on aqueduct.


1330AD: Aztecs declare war on Egypt! (They were not at war with anybody, smegged. They DID have 40 shields per turn at that one city, with their GA ongoing apparently, as they built Shakespeare @ 320 shields in 8 turns). Egypt is a lot bigger than the Aztecs, though. The last time I remember Aztecs declaring war on Egypt at this stage of the game, was my OCC game. The Aztecs were gone a few turns later. Heh.

Oh yeah, those two broke civs, Egypt and Zulu, somehow got hold of Magnetism. I guess they traded for it (luxuries, maybe).

We top out at 703gpt on income from other civs, with about 78 on the outgoing.

1335AD: Our spices dry up. Luckily I was paying attention and none of our cities rioted. Zulu's continue to want to sell us the saltpeter for 24 gpt, but we planned well and have no more need for it. I cancel the deal. About 235gpt of our income from the first round of brokering right after the Library windfall has dried up.

1340AD: Democracy to Germany @ diplo. Germany revolts.

China makes peace with Japan.

1345AD: Three techs, including Democracy, to Rome @ miser, about 55gpt. Rome revolts. Small fry deals keep techs rolling their way, gold ours.

I turn science rate down to 80% because the tech will come in at the same rate there now.

OH YEAH! Forgot to upgrade our muskets to rifle. Duh! Paying too much attention to diplomacy and brokering. :crazyeyes

I start the Rax Shuffle, but Charis will have to finish it.

1350AD: Cleo and Shaka now wealthy enough (perhaps from their old deals expiring) to pay market prices for Nationalism, about 60ish gpt apiece.

Aztecs appear to be losing their war. (Figured that would happen).

Woops, need to pump science back up to 90 for one turn, as there has been a hiccup in the ETA for steam. Yet... there is a problem. Without the spices on hand, there is a fine line to deal with in Havana.

It works like this: We need five happy faces from luxury spending to prevent civil disorder. With science at 90%, the math breaks down that we need to run FOUR flood plains (river tiles) plus all our gold mines, to get 5 happy faces. However, at 80% science, 10% taxes, we only need THREE such river tiles online, which would allow us to put another mine into operation and build our cavalry one turn sooner.

So here's the blood to be squeezed from this turnip: let the cavalry be finished with science at 80% (2 more turns), then swap Havana to University and increase science to 90% as needed to make sure Steam comes in at the best rate. I'm sure this will work, as we only need one more turn at 90% then the rest can be at 80. (It was just last turn that it was claiming we could run 80 the rest of the way).

There is one other micromanagement still in progress. The city between Charisso and Roberto is on high food now. It can run that two more turns, then swap back to hills, for zero waste on its aqeduct (then back to max food until it grows to 7, then back to max shields from there on out). What a bucket of minutiae!

Whip em all into shape, Charis! If we're lucky, we'll have coal. If not... we can still only trade with Germany and Zulus, and could not do so until they had the tech, too, I think.

So pray.

As for the tech, we will likely get it first. Go ahead and broker, to all who can pay full-on miser prices. Check China first, then Greece, would love those two to pay the most. If you can't get into "close to making a deal" but go straight from "this deal is acceptable" to "they would never accept this deal" it's because you've passed the maximum amount they can pay, and they are too broke, wait another turn or deal with richer customers first.

With nonstop brokering, we MAY even maintain a tech lead here. Wouldn't that be something?

Your turn should be interesting. Germany and Rome should BOTH be able to afford several more techs when they come out into Democracy, so keep an eye on them in particular (they're broke while revolting).

With 14 cavs on hand, 13 cannon, rifles, and coastal forts, I think we'll be plenty secure. Nobody really close to us is strong -- maybe China's in range -- but we are currently on everyone's nice list, we have nothing of real value on our rock (everybody but the small fry has iron and horses, so they don't need ours). DO NOT disband any more units, we're lean now and just about right to defend ourselves and deter aggressors. Still "average" or better vs all but Greece and China. And frankly, if someone wants to come volunteer to give us a Golden Age, come get some.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

Ya know... we dumped 3700 cash on China, plus 48gpt. All of that evaporated on the next turn, so what did they do with it? I can only think of three things: unit upgrades, cash for luxury purchases, and rushbuilding.

Hmm. I wonder if the AI's are suffering from "Colonel Charisinfantry Colonial Spending Syndrome"??? If they are blowing these bankrolls on upgrades, or even on pricey luxury puchases, that would be one thing, but if they are using it to rushbuild some low priority projects, that may explain how they end up collapsing in the industrial era!




- Sirian

 

[Zed-F]

It would be a waste, but I wonder: if you get a golden age when mobilized for war, whether your production is boosted by 2 shields per square? With rails, factories, and plants, that would truly be a sight to behold.

 

[Sirian]

Hmm, I just thought of one serious problem. Cascade from Hoover could potentially ruin us! I really wish you had not moved off the river.

We have two ways we might deal with it: get to Electronics QUICKLY and wait for the AI's to build it, praying that it comes in before anybody can get to Fission... or... Try to slow the thing down so that we have the UN built before Hoover is done.

I kind of like our chances better with Plan A. If we DO NOT get the UN, we'll be in a space race, possibly in a situation in which we may have problem trading for necessary materials to build an entire ship. Still lots of interesting times ahead, I think.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

> Sirian Inherited Turn: Ha! Some cities are running too much
> food. They had to be put back on max shields immediately.

...
> Charis disbanded my unit of longbows? Heh. I paid good cash
> to upgrade those! It's just so ironic, how I'm leaning
> toward "lean" while he's beefing the military, then I lean
> toward beef and he's trimming the fat.

Oh that is a chuckler

> Well, no matter in this case. I trade Free Artistry and some cash
> for Military Tradition, upgrade all our knights, then set Havana, > Chupa and Icy to cav production. We should end up with 13-14 total

Excellent! Good use of the saltpeter

> OK, let's see here. China will offer Physics for map and 910,
> ... I cheaped out and bought it from China. Over 1k in cash, but
> not much over.

Including our map in the trade? It's fine, just confirming.

> 1305AD: Newton's University completed in Ur. Set to build its
> Coastal Fort next.



> I start our workers chopping down some forests. Every tundra
> tile with a mine on it is virgin, and has not been planted or
> harvested. Every bare tundra has been lumberjacked. (See?
> Told you those mines would come in handy: markers!)

Hehe, neat -- good tip. I was thinking as planting that we'll end up ripping out once railroads are available, but at least we'll get 10 free shields from each.

> 1320AD: Democracy! Russia signs alliance with Zulus, declares
> war on China. Heh. Guess RBD3 is not the only game in which
> Cathy has lost her mind.

I don't think I've seen a single game where she acts sane. That's crazy.

> Now... the next big decision. To research or not to research. For
> is it nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous
> research costs...

Probably telling you what you know but the 'market price' is exactly one half the gold to buy it as to research it yourself. The downside is that it's gold in your foe's pocket, not gold just 'spent'. But if he keeps researching at first civ cost and you keep brokering to 3 and 4, seems good.

As you point out, there will be times for sitting back, but this isn't one of them (with Steam Power ahead and with Communism potentially all that is coming up next)

> We top out at 703gpt on income from other civs, with about 78
> on the outgoing.

700 gpt from other civs???? Wowza -- this is fulfilling my desire for a 'heavy trading game' as well.

> OH YEAH! Forgot to upgrade our muskets to rifle. Duh! Paying
> too much attention to diplomacy and brokering.
Thankfully these don't require the now-missing saltpeter.

> So here's the blood to be squeezed from this turnip
Ah good, I miss the days of turnip squeezing on our rock, what with this 700 gpt surplus around.

Whip em all into shape, Charis! If we're lucky, we'll have coal.

Huh?? Ok...

Charis revolts to Despotism and starts whipping Havana and Ur!

(Just kidding... yes, I really hope we have coal, and yes others need to get Steam power to be able to trade. Alas if we don't have to have to find a civ with *two*, as well as a free ocean path, to be able to trade)

> With nonstop brokering, we MAY even maintain a tech lead
> here. Wouldn't that be something?

I think it's do-able. Buying top-tech from top foe and brokering to others IF they can pay is a diplo boon for all. Likewise selling tech we discover ourselves will be nice. It's only at the very last stages of a space race where you need to 'pull ahead' of the top civ.

> With 14 cavs on hand, 13 cannon, rifles, and coastal forts, I
> think we'll be plenty secure. Nobody really close to us is strong -
> DO NOT disband any more units, we're lean now

Me??? Mr "Load the entire shoreline with 42 cannons" Presidente?? No problem there The only reason for the longbow disband was to keep total units <100 and to maximize use of the saltpeter. Knight/Cav vs Longbowmen? No brainer.

> And frankly, if someone wants to come volunteer to give us a
> Golden Age, come get some.

Aye!! And given our nice guy status, we can sick the dogs on that poor misguided civ and watch it be picked apart within 20 turns. Heck I might make a few more bowmen to be ready!

> Hmm, I just thought of one serious problem. Cascade from
> Hoover could potentially ruin us! I really wish you had not
> moved off the river.

Ha!! Now thinking ahead is one thing, but actually being able to foretell your civ would be doomed due to a freak cascade accident that costs you the Hoover Dam, all in 4000 BC, is asking a bit much!! Nevertheless, I'll be more prone to found my capitol on a river whenever possible

I'm not quite seeing the full scope of the problem. If we gauge the right time to start UN as palace placeholder at Ur, do we much care what others may do? I ask this at work without looking at the map or situation. Also, do we have NO real cities on a river? (I know Havana is not) Crazy alternative C, do we have time and/or would it wreck Havana to build a brand new city on the river and give over most of the good tiles to it, build it up asap by worker melding, and sending shields for infrastructure production by funneling units over there? (Crazy, I know...)

> Hmm. I wonder if the AI's are suffering from "Colonel
> Charisinfantry Colonial Spending Syndrome"??? If they are
> blowing these bankrolls on upgrades, or even on pricey luxury

Ha! I pity them if so! That guy has a screw loose!
(Although... remind me again who built the treasury up to over 3000 gold and who spend 3K in *one turn* )

I've done 'some' tech brokering, but the magnitude involved in this game will be good for me to master BTW, do we have enough workers on hand to plaster the rock with wall to wall railroad in 20 turns if we have to trade for it? Also each city will want to build (at least start) the improvements that require coal during those two decades. That will likely mean that once we get steam, we beeline Industrialization.

I should be able to play tonight, I've just done a huge round of 'my turns' in the other rbd games.
Charis

 

[Sirian]

Note, the trade with China says "over 1k gold" for Physics. That's because I took the map off the table. I just mentioned it because I was comparing their asking prices before I committed to buy, and they were all, of course, asking for the map.

Nobody yet has our map, and I've had so little trouble dealing with that, I'd say there's no reason ever to hand it out, unless as a concession to avoid our golden age (heh) by avoiding war with someone who decides to threaten us.

No, we have zero river cities, and no now is not the time to wreck our civ to make one. You made that call when you moved off the river and it turned out to be a creek, we'll sink or swim with it. I like our odds better that way than dismantling two of our top cities to make a Hoover candidate. It occurred to me that if Hoover is slow to be built, that that could potentially wreck our diplo win if the research pace is top notch, and right now, it's clicking along rather quickly. In the 12 turns after we got the library, the AI's researched Military Tradition, Physics, and Theory of Gravity, and 10 more turns later, we're almost to steam and China is probably almost to Communism.

Oh and one more thing. I DID spend mucho moolah, but note that the treasury has more in it at the end of my turn than it had when I started. I've never fussed at you JUST for spending. It's always been the kind of spending that brings too little return on the investment. Like... rushing a temple at Jamaica would have been. Or... handing off to me dead broke with some urgent spending need looming over us. You're doing much better about that lately.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

As for workers, we have what we have (30-something). Takes four to build a rail on an easy square, so we could build rails on six or seven tiles per turn, and as a last resort, on the final turns of the deal, spread them all over the place and have ONE per tile, and wrap up whatever we like. Yeah, in 20 we could get at least a military rail finished, and probably most of the urgent production tiles in the south.

As for "timing the placeholder" for UN... how are we going to know when to start? Like playing "The Price is Right?" Whoever comes closest to the actual retail price without going over is the winner? Heh. That's not as simple as it sounds. If we have a multi-tech lead we can be in control, but even then, not necessarily with any great precision. I don't think the risk is particularly high, but then again "more than zero" is higher than I care for.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

1350 AD (0) - Things sure are moving briskly, muttered the new Presidente.
He scans the annals of history for tips...
- Let Ellipi shrink slowly back down one or pop out a worker
- Finish those last two banks and do Wall Street
- As cash allows, upgrade to rifles
- Finish the rax shuffle (again )
- Havana turnip: 2 turns to finish cav at 80%, then Univ and up sci to 90%
- Tamarino on high food for 2 turns then swap to hills to aqueduct then max food
- Pray for coal (Deacon!! Where are you Deacon??!)
- Broker Steam around who can afford full-miser prices (China? Greece?)

(BTW we can trade with three countries now, Rome, Germany and Zulu)

1355 AD (1) - Bismarck can't afford the RoP anymore and is cautious. He
can only afford about 10 gold (not gpt, gold) so I give it to him for
free, now he's polite again. Greek ship off the eastern seaboard (about time)
Shaka too wants up, and gets RoP and a few coins for our friendship.
Uh... Egypt too? I sense a trend 8-\ They were paying 31 gpt, no wonder!
She ends up getting RoP and a few gold too. (Why on earth did they take 31gpt
and now wants US to pay a little?)

1360 AD (2) - Havana dance in the fields, eeking out the extra commerce to
push sci back up to 90%.

1365 AD (3) - Havana starts Wall Street, will take 16 turns.
Hmmm, 0% sci will get Steam Power? Looks like a buy-for-1-gold situation.
Bad timing, since this happened when we're 1 turn away from getting it.
Odd... not a 1 gold thing, but 50@diplo from Greece. Still, that's good for
one turn research savings. Bad news... no wait, Great news!! Coal! Smack
dab under San Cyreno! For a sec it looked bad because it did not
show up in our resource box. But it won't show up until next turn
What next? Can anything beat industrialization and factories?
(BTW, on river cities, I could have put Bablyon on the river, but that
seemed too close to Havana for optimal development.

Ok, time to make the diplo rounds to sell steam. China was actually not able
to pay anywhere near full. The Zulus could pay full: spices, 30 gold, 23 gpt.
Egypt 60 gold and 12 gpt, Bismark Free Artistry 17 gpt, Iroq and Japan broke.
All above @diplo. Russia Music theory for 20 and 10 gpt, miser. We pull
in a second luxury from Rome for Free Art and get 6 gpt more, diplo.
I'm used to having like 6 luxuries, where 1 more makes a big difference
(counterintuitively). Here a first or second luxury has almost no impact,
at least compared to 10% lux rate in our big cities. So alas, this trading
was not effective as I hoped it would be, I could NOT cut back the lux
slider, and so did not get the 70 gpt difference that would make. Cove,
San Charis, Akkad and our top four cities are not happy at 0%. What if
I put entertainers there... Hmm, actually not too bad. We lose about 1 turn
on each of those city improvements, and 3 on wall street. That seems worth
the 20*70 or 1400 gold savings of 0% lux. (I figure if I don't drop to 0%
I'll accidently let a city grow, too used to the luxuries ;p)

We go back now to China. His offer, 40 gold and 4 gpt (and World map, clicked
off). Hmmm... what can he REALLY pay? 10? 20? 30? Would you believe 31 gpt in
addition to his treasury? And he offers 4?????? Time to turn the screws methinks.
I back off just 2 gpt off this max price to not appear a slimeball, but make
the deal final at 40 and 29 gpt. "Your terms are acceptable" he says.
I need to study those phrases more. Is there a separate "You're most kind"
"That's fine" and "You drive quite a hard bargain" that mean +favor, neutral
and a loss of favor? Or does the deal itself pretty much always mean neutral
or +favor, even if miserly? We're now +782 gpt from other civs, and at
90% science, surplus of 245/turn. At zero science that would be +939 per turn
(wow!!) At max science we STILL take 8 turns for industrialization, it must
be wicked expensive. Maybe this is NOT one to go max research for -- no one
will be able to afford full price anyway when we go to broker it. Uh, hmmm,
Electricity is even more, 10 turns at 100% rate? (Medicine 7) I'm going to
try an atypical 'middle ground' (I usually prefer zero rate or max).
40% science gives Industrialization in 20 turns, precisely when this huge
ton of deals expires and civs can afford again to pay. That gives a +660
surplus, and gives our next leader the option to acclerate or slow down.
It also will let Greece, IF it burns that way, to pay full price and end up
reducing our time to research it. Also, Wall Street is due in 19 turns, so
Havana can go Factory right after we research it.

Any more cut-n-dry guidelines for figuring out the rates, whether to burn
ahead or wait-n-buy? I don't mind going through this analysis on a case by
case basis, it's just that I'm left wondering (is 20 turns mid-science-rate
the right choice??)

1370 AD (4) - Japan and Aztecs form a Mil Alliance against Egypt. More in-fighting
by the little peoples. Japan then declares war on Egypt. Fort Knox is
hard pressed for something to build. It starts a colloseum, but will never
be big enough size to really need one.

1375 AD (5) - I go back to check Aztecs and they offer about 18 gpt. How much
will they really pay? 52 gpt!!?? Uh, I'll be nice and give it to ya for 50!
What am I missing here? Does diplo mean I should take 18? Kicking it up to
53 was 'never accept' which means that crossed the limit of what they could
afford, but since not a "not quite" message, still below 'cost'.

German will buy Physics for a moderate 23 gpt, so I give for 21. The ba$tard
still calls this highway robbery (oops). Why withhold this from Rome? They
can give 16 gpt for Physics, so I take 13. Hmm, called a "gracious" offer.
That's more like it. (Then again, they ARE in awe of our culture, cough)

I was also making the rounds again to see who has coal. Our map is black but
the diplo screen should show yes/no on coal availability for those civs that
have steam power. They don't seem to need it. Nor do the Egyptians, Zulus,
Chinese, or Greeks. Hmm, everyone has it? Well... at least they won't be
coming after us?! We're now at 6.3K treas, +763 gpt from other civs

1380 AD (6) - As cities finish items, I try to get them on 18+ turn projects,
to act as placeholders for factories.

1390 AD (8) - The Greeks want an MPP?! Hmm, don't we feel honored?! Of course,
as isolationists, we feel no need for such a pact, Alex, but we do wish
you well! Feeling affection for my "tiny little culture" isn't really the
way into my heart anyway! He remains quite polite.

Ninevah is flat out of stuff to produce. I start a rifleman to cash in elsewhere.

1400 AD (10) - The coal appearing then not being 'really' available, in addition
to 'waiting for next tech to start factories' has thrown me off. Only now does
the vigilant one note he can actually start laying down railroads!
If I point out the treasury is being turned over to you with 10,178 gold and
+724 per turn, perhaps you will overlook this minor transgression?!

The first "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" offer, from Rome.
Uh... go away Caesar. You want Magnetism you say? So you can FINALLY come
visit us in a boat? How much ya got? Hmmm, offering 18, your max (19 is never)
I'll take 17 gpt and all your 38 treasury. Thank you! What does Bismarck think
about this? Magnetism for 110 gold and 21 gpt? For you mein Herr... just 19
gpt! Hmm... you want Metallurgy too? 29 gpt? You got deep pockets, bud,
but for a true friend (and cough, close neighbor) like you, 26 gpt is ok.

- Feel free to adjust workers as needed, especially in light of new rail
going down. Also cut research to zero (>1000 surplus) or 100% FIVE turns
(306 surplus) as you like. A ton of improvements finish in 10 to 20 turns -
if we get Indust tech before then, they can go over to factory and return to
what they're working on now.
- The luxury deals should persist through your reign. If they disappear you
can kick lux to 10% and remove entertainers and come out fine.
- Feel free to look for more diplo. At present, for example, Crazy Cathy will
give around 9 gpt for Banking, Rome 11 gpt for Metallurgy.
- You'll have a busy rail-net term. I've replaced NO mines, so they're still
markers of never-been-forest. Actually, we've done such a MASSIVE job of
planting and chopping, there is a ton of white tundra now ready to be
re-mined as well as railroaded. There are only *3* tundra spots with mines
that have never seen forest, all right outside San Lola. If those get the
plant-chop sequence, we're free to "mine tundra at will" without confusion.

Good luck,
Charis

 

[Charis]

Just a little picture for the onlooker. In 20 years or so the
landscape will be rather different with all the railroads.

Charis

 

[Zed-F]

Charis, I'm pretty sure I remember someone (Sirian?) say that the threshold for "miser" vs. "normal" vs "gracious" is 10% either way. So, if you have a big gpt deal, knocking one or 2 off won't make a difference, you might as well go for the whole amount. If you want a diplo value, you need to knock off at least 10% of their max pay value (for a relations-neutral deal) or 20% (for a relations-improving deal).

I'm not sure I've got that exactly right but if not, it's something along those lines.