RBE DSG2 - It's a Small World After All

[Sirian]

Sirian, you've been very quiet on the nuclear front; what do you think?

The only nuclear wars I've been in in Civ3 were in games with Space disabled, and both times I had SMD built before being attacked. I've never been this far behind in the space race BUT also still alive with a chance of a miracle. If I don't have much to say, it's because I don't have anything to add at the moment.

The AI's at war has to be a good thing, but it's true that we might have to fear America as much as Iroquois.

Is there any chance we can disconnect ALL the aluminum and park stacks of mechs on each site? The lack of production is what is biting us. We don't have the shields to build parts, build units to crash AI plans, and build units to fend off counterattacks. In a certain sense, I'm glad I'm not Up next. A whole lot of things could go wrong here.


- Sirian

 

[smegged]

Why is intombe starving, and why don't we do a double whammy, and hit the US capital as well? But only after their ICBMs have been spent.

I would NOT like to be a citizen of this world. This is what it COULD have been like in the 70s if either the states or Russia had itchy trigger fingers.

 

[Architect]

No matter what happens in this game I just want to say that this has been an incredible experience. If I've learned anything, which is an understatement, I've learned never to give up. I'm waiting with baited breath for T-hawk's turn report. Now that's what I call the magic of Civ...

I think the other beauty of this game is we are all very experienced Civ players who are all of sudden in very unfamilar terriority. When Sirian says "I've never been in situation X" you know its gotta be a pretty unique event.

Finally, I was realizing is I just don't have the much experience period in the modern age at a disadvantage. Its always get the MA and win or your so far ahead the space race is just an exercise in next turn.

Intombe is starving because we lost two luxuries from the Iroquois and had to use some entertainers in certain cities to avoid 10% luxury.

 

[smegged]

I agree with you architect. That would most likely be your very last turn. I'm glad you have had fun, I know I have. I've also learned a lot. Particularly about espionage and diplomacy. And yes, the never give up attitude. I think I said on the second page that the game was pretty much over when we got into war vs egypt for the FIRST time. HAHAHA how wrong I was. For a warmongers game though, the tech pace in it has been oustandingly fast as well. We may still win it yet though. Particularly if we can raze both the American and Iroquois capitals.

 

[T-hawk]

Gah, 4 AM and I can't sleep, so what else is there to do besides check this thread and peek at the save...

They didn't (can't tell with the Iroquois, but America didn't) get Nuclear Power! Somebody researched Miniaturization instead! That's a break of eight to ten turns, which might be all we need.

Also, when you stole, you got Satellites, right? Egypt lacks Superconductor (as I think Sirian mentioned); could've gone for that and traded it to Egypt for Satellites.

Any more commentary is welcome before I play sometime Wednesday evening. The game won't end either way on my turn; Zed's gonna get another shot. It's not gonna come to nukes on my turn, but I may have to set up for it.

 

[Architect]

Crap. I got so caught up in trying to steal techs I didn't even think about that. ...

 

[Charis]

Wow!! What a great game, regardless of the outcome!

The undertakers were wringing their hands several times
expecting your business, but while your hands were yet warm
they could not wring the scepter from them!

Good luck - and think carefully about each move, you've done a super job to get this far!

Hey, a thought on Egypt attacking you. Might I suggest (ask?) it might be the exposed workers that did it. I can think of at least four games, two recent and in progress where an aggressive foe went from gracious to sneak attack when I went for "lets use four workers and get that rail built along the border asap - then they can get back to safety". In 1280AD, the one that seemed most out of the blue, you did exactly that, and they ate up your whole slave labor force. If you look at the first war too, there were workers on the square next to the border. Could this wealth of sneak attacks, in this game and others, be due mainly to exposed or underdefended workers? (You know how in war time they are seen as juicy bait)

One parting thought - where is their aluminum? Is it accessible from the coast? Battleship bombardment, cruise missile, or bomber could delay them starting the crucial 10th piece by disconnecting it. (Parking mechs on it works too, if you're able)

If they ever get the 10th piece started, your options are few:
- Production sabotage (wicked expensive) in the city building it
- ICBM-inflicted production sabotage, in the city building Lounge
- Propaganda said town (highly unlikely)
- Capturing their capital to destroy the whole spaceship (you can't destroy it via nuke, it must be a capture or raze)
- Get a Great Leader and rush build your lounge to beat them

Charis

PS Just great stuff guys, sign me up for the next RBE SG!

 

[smegged]

Looking over our lands I'd say that we are in a similar position to modern day Israel. Not much land, but there's crap all chance our enemies are gonna take it . Glad to see you are having fun watching Charis.

Our strategy is this. We declare war, park units on their shoreline, nuke their capital, then walk into and raze their relatively undefended capital. We're probably going to have to do this to both the Iroquois and the Americans (odd that three American nations are the three most likely to win this game)

 

[T-hawk]

Couple questions for Sirian -

Suppose I were to bring a settler with the Salamanca invasion force. If the force lands on a grassland coastal tile between Oil Springs and Mauch Chunk, the settler can found a city there. That would let our MAs attack Salamanca from 3 squares away (not tipping off our plans), on the turn after landing (only one turn of Iro counterattacking), and get 2 attacks each on that turn (since the first square would be by rail.) We could never hold such a city, of course. Question is, can I abandon it (or gift it to America) or does that run afoul of the Throwaway City exploit? (The difference is in the war weariness hit after the Iros capture it.)

Along the same lines, what if I capture Salamanca, and then GIFT IT TO THE AMERICANS on the same turn? IIRC, that flips all the citizens to American nationality - meaning America takes a gargantuan war weariness hit when the Iros recapture it, and then the citizens are pissed as all hell. Plus America might spend money on it in the meantime (what's their turn order? I'm not sure)

We don't have the mechs to park on all the aluminum, but here's another idea - NUKE THE ALUMINUM. They'll take at least a couple turns to hook it back up; it's conceivable that might be the margin we need.

 

[Sirian]

The resource disconnection can only buy one turn (the turn it takes them to move workers onto the tile). It would take enormous luck to have them not move workers there immediately, but if so that could buy more turns. The problem is, if they have the resource hooked up at all at any point and start the part, that's it. The resource denial has failed.

That's why I say to park on the resources. (If they have under a city, you'd have to take the city). Parking on the resources is the only way to ensure they are not connected. Everything else is "desperation time" and not likely to help. If you wait until the turn they have the last tech, it's too late. See the dilemma?

The throwaway city exploit has to do with moving settlers through the cultural borders of cities then disbanding THOSE cities and founding a new city with more cultural reach than the old city. Chaining that can get you anywhere, if you have enough settlers. If you land on the shores and found one city without having captured any enemy cities, then you are founding in enemy territory (at least two tiles from any existing city, it won't let you found directly adjacent) and that's not a problem. If you took two settlers, founded the one, moved the other, disbanded the first and founded again, THAT would be exploitive.

When you gift a city to another civ, only your own nationals in that city change nationality to the receiving civ. Third party nationals are not affected. I'd say just go ahead and raze, if it comes to a nuke-their-spaceship move.


- Sirian

 

[T-hawk]

Nuking the aluminum buys at least three turns, since the nuke destroys roads in adjacent squares as well. A turn to move workers onto an adjacent square; a turn to build the road there and move workers onto the resource square; and a turn to build the road on the resource. And that's if the AI can coordinate enough workers to do it; America's land right now is almost completely unrailroaded and that might distract their workers.

But you're right, we need to do that BEFORE the last tech comes in, and we aren't going to have four or five ICBMs by then. We also aren't going to have the mechs available and in place to park by then; and I'm not sure if we want to declare permanent war on everyone yet.

Oh, and another detail for whoever asked - carriers and transports can't carry tac nukes; only nuke subs can. And unfortunately nuke subs move slower than all the other ships, meaning we either have to slow the big naval stack down to protect the sub, or let the sub run stealth on its own. (although the sub only has to get within 8 tiles of the target.)

Can't wait to get out of work and play this thing...

 

[Zed-F]

Crap. If we already have the tac-nuke built then I suppose it's too late to swap to ICBM.

Letting the nuke sub run stealth does seem a bit risky, even if the convoy precedes it to draw fire. It is a fair distance to Salamanca, giving lots of time for something to go wrong and the Iros to spot and or accidentally move into our sub. However, there is the potential to do it anyway and have an ICBM waiting as a fall-back plan.

As for capturing/gifting Salamanca versus razing, not sure how much weariness the Americans would suffer in that event. At least we could sell all the buildings and maybe draft a mech out of it first. Unless you can't draft foreigners, of course. Are there any Wonders in Salamanca that we would like to see disappear? That might be the critical factor.

Also, you might as well go ahead and re-plant the spy in Iro lands, T-hawk. We will probably want to know what's going on there when invasion time comes around.

 

[T-hawk]

OK, bailed out of work a bit early , playing now.

 

[T-hawk]

As I said, we'll try to outrace them from here, but if Nuclear Power shows up soon enough that we won't be able to acquire all the techs in time, it's Da Bomb.

Inherited turn: Let's take inventory.

12 tanks, which when upgraded should be enough to take a post-nuke Salamanca.
3 transports, that's also enough.
1 carrier, that's also enough. Planes aren't going to make the difference.
1 nuke sub; might want another.
13 battleships; that should be enough to run separate escorts for the naval convoy and the nuke sub, I think.
25 infantry and 21 mechs, that's probably also enough.
Bapedi swaps to an ICBM; I'll decide what to do with it later.

I renegotiate American Ivory for Wines; they pay 5gpt. Also renew Egyptian Furs for wines, but they don't have any gpt to offer. (When did we buy iron from Egypt?)

I sell the granaries in all our cities except Santiago. The cities are never going to grow again, and we may need every penny.

(I) We complete the Thrusters and the Americans complete the Fuel Cells.

1842 AD: nothing doing yet. I move a few ships up from Tenoch to Intombe.

(I) I hear a bunch of weird noises and the screen centers on St. Regis. Was hoping for a nuke, but I think it was submarine combat.

1844 AD: HAH! (image):

(I) Ecology finishes at long, long last. I put the lone scientist on Recycling - it's theoretically possible the game will last that long.

Not enough money to steal Superconductor safely yet (Egypt lacks it; we can trade it for Synth Fibers). We have ICBMs with several turns remaining as prebuilds, so we can wait. Bogota's ICBM will complete in two turns; I decide to let it finish.

Americans finish the Exterior Casing (that's the big one...)

1848 AD: Iroquois will now talk, and my racing heart slows a notch as I see they don't have Nuclear Power.

American bombers disconnected one Iro aluminum, on their southeastern island, but they have two on the mainland. America's still in Democracy...

(I) Bogota builds ICBM. Egypt gets their first SS part in. Americans add Life Support, their ninth part.

1852: The Iroquois land a transport in a spot I missed at the shore blockade, at San Antonio! But it's only two Modern Armors, and our arty, elite longbow, and a tank fend them off.

With two ICBMs a turn away from completion, time to steal Superconductor. We get it, safe steal from America - but it plus our 600 remaining gold isn't enough to trade to Egypt for Synth Fibers. Crap.

We complete the Fuel Cells and Life Support. I swap Madrid from ICBM to Mil Academy and back to ICBM to keep the prebuild alive, and keep doing that every turn. This will become the Exterior Casing, of course.

1854: Superconductor + 950 gold still "doubtful" to get Synth Fibers from Egypt.

1856: Super and 1297 gold still "doubtful"!

1858: Super and 1678 gold still "doubtful"!

Tlatelolco completes our second ICBM.

I get a second message about the Iros starting Cure for Cancer.

1860 AD: Super and 2055 gold still "doubtful"! So much for THAT idea.

America just dropped into anarchy!!! Well, I'll try the "catch them in anarchy" strategy because it worked before, and to get in a shot before they get into Communism. A risky steal succeeds for Synthetic Fibers!

I then go ahead and trade Superconductor to Egypt for all they have, which is 1082 gold, 38/turn, and more Iron and Saltpeter.

WE ARE AT SPACESHIP TECH PARITY! Nobody has gotten Nuclear Power.

Exterior Casing due in 4 in Madrid. The other two parts will finish this turn.

Zed can decide what to do with the MPPs which are now cancelable. I did not try to re-plant a spy in Iroquois since we didn't need to as long as we know they don't have Nuclear Power.

With everyone in Communism, once they get Nuclear Power and we steal it, we should be able to slam research to 100% on The Laser and get it first. I think we're going to win this thing!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe2-aztecs-1860ad.zip

 

[XSin]

The suspense is killing me X_X

Maybe I should try the (most likely) last save...

 

[Zed-F]

Time to teach those AIs a lesson:

Keep your eyes on the prize!

What with all the AI slowdown due to wartime distractions and researching non-SS techs, hopefully you're right and we will be able to pull this one out, T-Hawk. If so, it will be one for the record books...

Got it. I'll start working on a second force in case we need to wipe out Washington too.

 

[XSin]

Washington would fall quickly with a nuke or two, followed by a mass artillery bombardment, finished with a couple of MA's.

 

[Sirian]

The Iroquois could be building the last part right now. Instead they are off funding special interest research projects?? WHAT ARE THEY SMOKING? Sheesh. Maybe the real question isn't what they've been smoking, but how long they've been smoking it. The poor things don't seem to have two functional brain cells left to rub together.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Sometimes, though, it's neither luck nor skill, but an AI that falls and can't get up. Is the AI deliberately programmed to SUCK at finishing off the space race? I'm really starting to wonder.

I mean, it's good that the AI's aren't like the Civ1/Civ2 AI's, which outright cheated, teaming vs the player. Maybe this is a result of bending over backward to avoid that, to avoid the opposite extreme of an AI that unflappably marches in lockstep with one another to slam the player out of the loop. Still, it seems clear that the elevator is not reaching the top floor, if you know what I mean. I'm almost disappointed that they're doing such a poor job of finishing us off. They were doing well, got to the goal line, had a winning position, and then fumbled the ball.




- Sirian

 

[smegged]

Woohooo, we are definitely in with a very good chance in this one. Sirian is right. That was major on the part of the AI (maybe they thought we had no chance against them, being such a small nation and all....)

I also thought I'd say that you have the coolest avatar Charis.

 

[T-hawk]

BTW - did we ever build research labs? I forget. If not, please do so, of course I think I checked that Nuclear Power would take 13 turns for us to research from scratch; hopefully some labs can bring that down a turn or two for The Laser.

I'd avoid spending any money on anything like Iroquois spies until we've accumulated enough for safe steals of both Nuclear Power and The Laser. And if that tech does show up in the next turn or two, before we have enough, we might want to go ahead with the Bomb plan anyway, to make sure. We only have to hit the capital of whoever comes up with Nuclear Power - which isn't likely to be the Iroquois very soon after they researched Genetics, but could be America since I don't know what they've been researching or for how long, and they did spend some time in Democracy. Egypt was probably researching Superconductor while I was trying to trade it to them, so they likely (but not guaranteed) just started a new research now.

If the techs take long enough, this could even come back around to you to finish off, Sirian