RBW5 - Deity Micromanagers

[Methos]

E? isnt it just SE?

My mistake. SE.

 

[KinesongPayaso]

get the extra production from turn 1.

What's this? Is this a feature to compensate for the fact that you didnt settle ASAP, and you get some sort of production boost?

I never moved the settler in my games, so Im not familiar with this

 

[Ozbenno]

If you settle on a plains hill, you get an extra hammer in base production for your city (2f2h1g instead of 2f1h1g). There is a thread about extra base resources when you settle on differnent tiles over in the HOF forums here. Its not related to moving the settler.

Obviously, an extra hammer every turn can be a good advantage to have.

 

[KinesongPayaso]

oh, haha. I see
the "from turn 1" made me think that there was something I didnt know

 

[regoarrarr]

@Methos - yes sorry about the resource bubbles. I will post a new screenie in a few hours when I'm home (around lunchtime EDT)

@WastinTime - I hadn't even considered settling on the plains hill, not wanting to lose that turn, but I'm going to check out some numbers on that

@Kinesong - the settler can't move to the corn and then back to the starting square and still settle on turn 1. But if we're moving to the plains hill, we can move the settler to the corn on its way to the PH revealing a few extra tiles

@all:

We have quite the non-consensus on warrior movement!

Kinesong: SE or SW
WastinTime: NW
SunTzuWu: SW
Methos: SE
Ozbenno: NW

I will crunch some numbers about settling on the plains hill to see the cost / reward of losing a turn of commerce vs. getting an extra hammer per turn.

Also when I get home, I'll see if I can peek in the fog to see what some of those tiles are.

If we can get consensus on where to move the warrior in the next few hours, I could also make that move and post an updated screenie

 

[Jabah]

If you want to move the settler 1E, I would definitively move the warrior 1NW to be sure we are not losing any important tiles.

I like the idea of exploring a bit more, but being surrounded by forrest and/or hill, I am afraid we wouldn't be able to explore lots in a few turns (+ the actual BFC seems already pretty good).

 

[regoarrarr]

As I'm sure will surprise nobody that suggested settling on the plains hill / knows what they are doing, the number-crunching bears out the fact that spending 1 turn to settle on the plains hill is a net-gainer, even losing 2 food, 2 hammers and 11 commerce in turn 1.

It does cost us 1 turn in discovering Agriculture (turn 12 instead of turn 11), but that doesn't matter since we don't have a worker yet anyways.

Speaking of that initial worker, that is where the benefit of the plains hill comes in. Instead of 15 turns, it only takes 12, arriving at the start of turn 14 (with the 1 turn delay) instead of at the start of turn 16.

That allows us to farm the wheat 2 turns earlier, which really explodes the growth curve. It basically gets us a size bigger one turn earlier across the board.

After 43 turns, settling first, I have us at:
176 food,
184 hammers,
557 commerce

After 43 turns, settling on the plains hill (and accounting for the lost turn), I have us at:
185 food,
240 hammers,
570 commerce

So slightly ahead in food and commerce, but 56 extra hammers. Obviously the 1 per turn, but the extra hammer for each turn that we grow earlier. I also swapped from farming the corn first to farming the wheat first, since the worker can not reach the corn on the 1st turn after he is built starting on the plains hill.

So, unless I hear any compelling arguments in the next 3-4 hours, I will plan on moving the warrior NW (on to the corn), the settler N (on to the wheat - free move) and unless I find anything interesting, moving to the plains hill.

 

[WastinTime]

Yes, the PH is great as you calculated, but also I like the rivers that are likely to be in the east too. The west looks less interesting beyond the corn.

Don't start with Ag. Get hunting. It's all about commerce. You need to get on the Fur ASAP and never get off. You're going to grow so fast with corn/wheat. There's no reason to rush it with your happy cap holding you back anyway. By the time you finish the camp, you'll almost be size 2 from working the unimproved corn.

The corn is not irrigated, so you'd want to do the wheat first no matter what.

 

[Methos]

Interesting calculations.

So, unless I hear any compelling arguments in the next 3-4 hours, I will plan on moving the warrior NW (on to the corn), the settler N (on to the wheat - free move) and unless I find anything interesting, moving to the plains hill.

This sounds good.

 

[KinesongPayaso]

The benefit of settling on the plainhills, at t43, -everything being equal- (what was the latin term for this again?) shows a huge production boost?

Are those values in 43 turns the cumulative values that the center tile of the capital throughout 43 turns?


I never paid this much attention in one tile and evaluating it's effectiveness

 

[regoarrarr]

@WastinTime - the corn is irrigated actually (there's a lake to its NW). I will have to run the numbers on going Hunting first vs. Agriculture first. i.e. how much commerce we gain vs. how much food we lose.

@Kinesong - those are the total numbers city-wide. The gain is because we have one less turn at size 1 and are working unimproved tiles less.

Once the kids go off to school / nap here I will do the warrior / settler moves.

 

[regoarrarr]

....aaaaand we got some interesting data from the warrior move.

Our missing 5 tiles (by moving) would be
grass forest, plains forested hill, lake, plains forest deer (4/2/0) and plains forest.

That also reminded me that in my settling on the plains hill calculation, I was counting on working that lake, when in reality it would be out of the BFC if we moved.

Thoughts? Settler remains unmoved but I will either move him or settle him tonight, depending on what we think.

EDIT: BTW in a test game I was just doing - I saw a barb archer in 3160 BC. For those of you who seem content running around with nothing but warriors. And they entered my territory in 2600 BC (turn 35)

 

[Methos]

I'm tempted to settle in place. I don't believe moving E is worth it imo.

 

[WastinTime]

Those deer will be nice for a 2nd city. That's too much food for the captiol. I'd move to the PH for the hammer but also, as I said, for the likely extra river tiles and the extra 5 tiles in BFC. You're trading 5 pretty bad tiles (except the deer) for 5 new chances at something.

And one more thing...You might want to use that freshwater lake to settle a city next to. Moving the settler to PH gives you some more choices for the other city location.

 

[regoarrarr]

One good thing about settling in place is that the deer is that rare 4 food-hammer tile which means that both tiles get a worker out at turn 14, but settling in place is 8 commerce ahead.

Also, I think N-NW of the lake tile is the coast?

 

[regoarrarr]

So we had one vote for settle and one vote for the hill. The numbers were about even, so I went with the plains hill.

aaaaaand

I guess we didn't need to worry about not getting the deer!!

So tomorrow is turn 2 (3960 BC). We need to decide on what to tech (Ag/Hunting are the 2 big choices) and I think we're all agreed on worker first

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

So tomorrow is turn 2 (3960 BC). We need to decide on what to tech (Ag/Hunting are the 2 big choices) and I think we're all agreed on worker first

Agriculture:

I'd normally favor Agriculture, so the capital grows fast after the Worker improves it. It is tempting to improve the irrigated Corn from 3F to 6F. The capital will grow very fast with +6F.

Hunting:

However, Hunting can be used to improve both the Fur and Deer. Please turn on the Yield Display so its easy to see the unimproved yield of the Plain Hills Deer. Improving it will add +2F, but will the net Food be +3F or +4F?

Will the improved Deer be enough for initial growth?

Citizen assignment:

Working the improved Fur first will boost Commerce by +5C, but growth will be very slow if its worked at 1P with its 1F reducing growth to a +1F crawl. Perhaps the Fur should be worked at 2P.

Working the unimproved Corn at +3F (when it becomes available) does provide moderate growth while the Fur is being improved.

Bronze Working:

Maybe Bronze Working for an early Axe rush? The capital is surrounded by prenatal Axemen. The Forest on Fur can also be cleared for +1C and a few Hammers. A pre-Mathematics Forest Chop is 20H and an Axeman is 35H. After clearing a Forest on a Hill, build a Mine to help build Axeman ...

Victory Condition:

Before going too far ... has a Victory Condition been decided yet? An Axe rush may or may not make a good start for a Cultural Victory for example. Taking two capital cities would make a nice start Cultural start though, assuming its done early enough.

Map:

Which Map and parameters were used to generate this game?

Conclusion:

Assuming that few like my Bronze Working suggestion:

It's a close call, but I favor Agriculture to improve the irrigated Corn. Hunting should be researched after that.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

I already put in my argument for hunting over Ag. (You'll be almost size 2 by the time the camp is done.)

If you do go Ag, I'd go with the Wheat over the corn. It's on a river.

An Axe rush is a good idea except this is normal speed. I don't think it will pay off. And you gamble on Copper. Copper does not appear on a forest, and you have a lot of forest.

Although I agree Ag, hunting is the debate for 1st tech. There is also the option of Myst, Poly (for parthenon). If your leader started with myst, I'd say poly 1st for sure to get the religion. Unfortunately, you have no chance at getting Hindu, so Poly has to wait, but how long? You could try to trade for it after alphabet, but I think you'll lose the parthenon. Seems a shame to waste that marble. I suppose if you want a space race you could just get the Great Library.

 

[Methos]

Obviously warrior west, heading for the hut. My vote is for Hunting.

 

[KinesongPayaso]

Hunting 1st for me too
this is looking great, lots of river tiles ;D