Reading books by bigots.

[Lillefix]

Maybe he liked Jews, but the dwarves are pretty much spot on for the typical anti-semitic stereotypes: greedy to the extreme, insular, hostile to outsiders. Even to the point where they have been exiled form a homeland now controlled by the evil eastern types. Tolkien even admitted that he thinks of the dwarves like Jews...

So because a fictional race reminds you of the stereotype of an existing people, that makes it racist? Dwarfs aren't even portrayed as evil or anything. I'm sorry but this idea that this makes is racist is beyond ridiculous. I'm sure that at least half of all fictional people in fantasy or science fiction resemble the stereotype of some people. In Babylon five the Centauri reminded a bit about the British and the Romans, and Mollari had a Russian-sounding accent. Is that racist against three different peoples?

 

[peter grimes]

Yeah, Tolkien's work has a fair few...objectionable...ideas behind it. The obsession with racial purity and bloodlines. The quite blatant racism - orcs are a clear stand in for turkish/mongoloid people (confirmed in some of Tolkien's letters), while dark-skinned men are all evil and Dwarves are a thinly veiled (predominantly negative) stereotype of Jews. Women are almost exclusively objectified - even the one vaguely positive example ends up being forced to be a dutiful wife in the epilogue.

Now, I'm not saying he used the books to push his views in the way of, say, Rand, but likely they simply reflect his beliefs and prejudices.

Makes me think you haven't read him much. Granted, I haven't read a single word in about 20 years, but if it's quite so obvious as you state I surely should have picked up on all these "obvious", "thinly-veiled", and "blatant" characterizations. I'm inclined to think that some people are hunting for some specific needles in every haystack....

 

[PhroX]

So because a fictional race reminds you of the stereotype of an existing people, that makes it racist? Dwarfs aren't even portrayed as evil or anything. I'm sorry but this idea that this makes is racist is beyond ridiculous. I'm sure that at least half of all fictional people in fantasy or science fiction resemble the stereotype of some people. In Babylon five the Centauri reminded a bit about the British and the Romans, and Mollari had a Russian-sounding accent. Is that racist against three different peoples?

It's that they are very close to a negative stereotype. And in isolation, maybe it wouldn't be anything. Throw in the other things in the book and, well, maybe, maybe not. As I said, I could be overthinking these things.

 

[Rashiminos]

Apparently France thinks Dieudonné M'bala M'bala has crossed a line or two.

 

[Formaldehyde]

What a surprise Forma, you didn't respond directly to my post at all. You just, as usual, pulled out a website that points sort of in the vague direction.

While you apparently didn't even bother to read the articles which clearly directly contradict many of the statements you continue to make?

Makes me think you haven't read him much. Granted, I haven't read a single word in about 20 years, but if it's quite so obvious as you state I surely should have picked up on all these "obvious", "thinly-veiled", and "blatant" characterizations. I'm inclined to think that some people are hunting for some specific needles in every haystack....

Indeed. Tolkien has been unjustly accused of being a racist by some ever since the books appeared. Fortunately, most people don't have any difficulty understanding that the books are fantasy. That they are clearly not allegorical according to the author himself.

 

[Hygro]

I think this gets to the heart of it


Link to video.

 

[bhsup]

Jackson lost all rights to in any way claim authority on interpreting Tolkien's works. His movies are great, but he altered them so much, they are more just "Jacksons Invented Tales of Middle Earth" than anything else.

 

[Smellincoffee]

I read a book by David Irving before I was familiar with his reputation. The book itself was on the rise of the Luftwaffe, seen through the career of Erhard Milch. After a professor noticed the book's author and cued me into his Holocaust-denialism, I avoided him.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Nobody has mentioned it yet, but there have been a multitude of prominent scientists who have expressed bigoted and racist views. But it doesn't change their contributions in their own fields.

I'd really prefer to not know what a celebrity thought about some political or social issue in most cases.

 

[NovaKart]

Tolkien got some of his ideas from Germanic mythology and dwarves are portrayed as good craftsmen and very greedy for gold in the original mythology. I think any similarities to Jewish stereotypes are coincidental.

 

[caketastydelish]

I'm a person of color living in a redneck town, and I can tell you firsthand that any and all of the discrimination I've faced has nothing to do with the Lord of the Rings. Grow up people.

 

[sophie]

The obvious problem with Mouthwash's argument re: Iain Banks is, of course, that Israel in no way represents "an entire people". Or even one singular "people"

 

[Masada]

The obvious problem with Mouthwash's argument re: Iain Banks is, of course, that Israel in no way represents "an entire people". Or even one singular "people"

We're talking about 14 word, ethnic cleansing, Muslim hating Mouthwash here. It's not like we should expect his opinions about Israel to be measured and/or sane. I'm actually willing to bet that his views are totally unrepresentative of Isrealis views outside of the lunatic fringe. But the real question, and the one we leave unanswered, is why we continue as a forum to enable him to turn whole threads into soapboxes for his particularly disgusting brand of politics?

 

[Tahuti]

The obvious problem with Mouthwash's argument re: Iain Banks is, of course, that Israel in no way represents "an entire people". Or even one singular "people"

Frankly, that makes Iain Banks decision even more baffling. He is not avoiding the Israeli government, but people who live in Israel, including Israeli Arabs and Israelis who disagree with the government.

I'm actually willing to bet that his views are totally unrepresentative of Isrealis views outside of the lunatic fringe.

Well basically this. But there are several reasons why the opinions of Mouthwash keep appearing and we should avoid adopting postures that perputuate such views.

 

[sanabas]

I normally don't mind an author's politics- but what if an author had declared that he would be "boycotting" people of your beliefs/political affiliation/nationality and not selling his books to you? Would you read him, even then?

Yes. Especially if their criticisms are valid. Being critical doesn't equal being bigoted. Protesting in some way against my country's government isn't a reason for me to stop reading.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Let alone that it has been a while since people can order stuff online, from other countries, anyway, so if one wanted to get his book he still would have been able to (i suppose that it is unlikely the israeli government would issue a ban on mail including the work of authors who publicly are against it).

 

[Masada]

But there are several reasons why the opinions of Mouthwash keep appearing and we should avoid adopting postures that perputuate such views.

Yeah, so what? Dude's a bigot, I'm calling him out for it. Whatever got him like that ain't going to be knowable to you or I and frankly probably isn't even comprehensible to himself. Bigotry put bluntly just isn't a rational thing.

Frankly, that makes Iain Banks decision even more baffling. He is not avoiding the Israeli government, but people who live in Israel, including Israeli Arabs and Israelis who disagree with the government.

You can say the same thing about government policy decisions, so that doesn't make for a particularly compelling argument.

^Let alone that it has been a while since people can order stuff online, from other countries, anyway, so if one wanted to get his book he still would have been able to (i suppose that it is unlikey the israeli government would issue its own ban on mail including the work of authors who publicly are against it).

I'm quite sure Israeli bookstores would stock his work. They'd just buy it in bulk off a supplier somewhere and re-import it. There's probably a whole bunch of Israeli import laws in place designed to allow Israeli firms to dodge the boycott. I know there's a whole bunch of procedures in place designed to facilitate exports to parts of the world that ain't all that friendly.

 

[Tahuti]

Yeah, so what? Dude's a bigot, I'm calling him out for it. Whatever got him like that ain't going to be knowable to you or I and frankly probably isn't even comprehensible to himself. Bigotry put bluntly just isn't a rational thing.

Except that it does appear rational to some, including Mouthwash. For instance, the way Western European governments spin crime statistics, it seems like a good idea to deport all Arabs (who are mostly Muslim) from Europe! Except of course, that the problem is in the statistics as it generates an us vs. them mentality which is then perpetuated by the media. Calling for boycotts against an entire country that doesn't threaten you(r nation) does exactly the same.

The reality is that Anti-Islam and Anti-Israel sentiment are very alike: Both use a vague appeal to human rights issues (but look away when those think who think the alike commit atrocities), portray those targets as innately evil and ultimately target Muslims and Israelis instead of Islam and Israel.

You can say the same thing about government policy decisions, so that doesn't make for a particularly compelling argument.

It also applies on decisions made by governments, but on a more significant magnitude.

 

[Kyriakos]

Context plays role, as usual, in art boycotting too. For example i would not ask for a book of mine to not be ever sold in Turkey, as things currently are, cause it makes no difference to me. But if there was a war or some sort of war-like episodes with Turkey then i might ask that. If the book firm wanted the boycott i would agree to it, cause again it is not significant for myself. If the book firm wanted to ban the book from being translated to English, then i would think of it for far longer, due to a great many issues there (a couple of hundred million people speak English as their native language, for starters, and they are spread to many countries as well).

Not sure how politicized Iain Banks was, but even if he cared so much so as to boycott the israeli market for his books, it has virtually nothing to do with whether his books are decent art or not.

 

[Tahuti]

Not sure how politicized Iain Banks was, but even if he cared so much so as to boycott the israeli market for his books, it has virtually nothing to do with whether his books are decent art or not.

Indeed. I listen to artists whose views I do not agree with at all.