Real phenomenon of Islamofascists

[aelf]

There's a concerning development where I am recently that shed some light on what I feel is a disturbing trend.

A boy wearing a jacket with the Nazi flag and German eagle in public was told off by a woman who inquired if he was a Nazi supporter. He answered in the affirmative and she basically told him that it's wrong. This incident was shared on social media and the reactions were very divided.

Plenty of people conflate the Buddhist swastika with the Nazi flag (it was clearly the latter, as the photo showed), but I guess that's to be expected of a Chinese population who received a narrow education. Some people think it's just a harmless symbol regardless and are instead against the woman's attempt at censorship (very odd in a country that fully embraces censorship). Some others instead divert the conversation towards the evils of Israel and, unfortunately, those who do this are Muslims. And among the Muslims who took part in the conversation on social media, the vast majority seem to have no issue with public displays of Nazi symbols.

Now, granted the populace in this country is generally ignorant about the world. But given the endemic hatred of Israel and prevalence of Holocaust denial among the Muslim community here, plus this apparent indifference towards what the Nazis did, I'm starting to wonder whether Islamofascists really might exist.

There's already a strong tendency towards banning and removing things (including groups of people) they disagree with among the conservatives here, and it's not limited to Muslims. If these people only knew more about what fascism is about, it's not a stretch to say that they'd embrace the identity.

I'm disgusted by the ignorance I see, but I find the real prospect of support for Nazis and fascism among the Muslim community alarming. It seems like more fuel for a cycle of oppression that will only feed the idiotic clash of civilisations narrative.

Do we blame Israel and its genuine suckiness, or do we blame conservatism and its miasma of ignorance/intolerance for this?

 

[sendos]

Conservatism, at least in the US, UK and Australia, support Israel wholeheartedly.

I doubt the Islamic world really believes the Halocaust never happened. I think they're saying it just to piss off Israel. The establishment of an Israeli state reignited the Islamic world's anti-Semitism and its hatred of the west. While the Israelis do require their own state due to all the anti-Semitism in the world, it has put the Islamic world and the west on a collision course ever since. The Arabs hoped to repeat history of the Crusades vs Jihads by uniting together to defeat Israel, only for the US to step in and offer aid to help Israel defend itself back in 1960s. Then you add Israel's controversial settlement policies and you see this issue will never be resolved. Trump and Kushner's ignorant and arrogant claims they could fix it were always doomed to failure. Mind you, I initially supported Israel in all this, but due to how massively complex this problem is, I don't support either side and I prefer to stay neutral.

On the topic of ignorance of Nazism, you should see Thailand. There are Thai youth walking around with Nazi paraphernalia not knowing what it means. Strangely enough, Israel excuses this ignorance.

 

[Sarin]

TBH, I'm not surprised. Islam is as much political ideology as it is religion, and in practice it has a lot in common with Nazism.

Qu'ran and hadith have a lot to say about Jews. Lots of it is bad, some is not. In practice, the bad parts are most listened to within muslim community, as evidenced by their behavior toward Jews, both historically and recent, especially after formation of Israel.

 

[AdamCrock]

I click the crappy thread like "islamofacist" and it's my favourite guy ! @"aelf" the regressive slow dude or something . Well !! You've made a name of Yourself didn't You ? Just Look the other way..... ooooh what's that ?
\PS. We will know if You've looked .....Yes we know ....

Moderator Action: That will be quite enough flaming for the day, thank you. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[aelf]

I click the crappy thread like "islamofacist" and it's my favourite guy ! @"aelf" the regressive slow dude or something . Well !! You've made a name of Yourself didn't You ?

As opposed to someone who's made a name for himself as a drunken wreck, I suppose?

Moderator Action: If someone flames you, report it. Don't respond in kind. --LM
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[thecrazyscot]

I'm starting to wonder whether Islamofascists really might exist.

This is frankly baffling to me. You...didn't think they existed before??

 

[aelf]

Nope. It was a term from back when Republicans called people fascists (how things have changed). The Baathists were fascist, yes, but hardly Islamic. Perhaps these people I'm looking at too.

Anyhow, hatred of Israel making a non-white person align with Nazism, I do have to say, I find incredible.

 

[Angst]

They exist but

in practice it has a lot in common with Nazism.

this is like saying feminists are all part of the minority that want to enforce a female supremacy

EDIT: Admittedly, the statement Sarin provided was kind of vague, but that makes it even less useful to generalize about Nazism and Islam.

 

[H4run]

Perhaps these people I'm looking at too.

I'm kind a disappointed in the beginning that this kind of thread that look really ill-intended and bait lots of right-wing minded people to jump on the anti-Muslim wagon, it's very hard for me to react especially as this is coming from you. But at least this line show that you have a good intention.

I don't think your assumption or fear is correct Aelf. I surrounded myself with Muslims and acquaintances with them from every kind of ethnicity and nations, never once I saw or met a Muslim that is fans with Nazi or Hitler. Except one very uneducated person whom I know when I working on my thesis regarding Aceh, I have to do interview with this one guy who was an ex-GAM fighter who announced himself as a fan of Hitler and Gandhi, and for few GAM fighter that I contacted and interview with it's only him that has a very eccentric view and I also felt that he has a bit racism on him for everyone outside of his tribe-as he called me also not by my name but by my tribe "Padang", perhaps he was just tired and messed up because the continuous fight and very uninformed because of the continuous conflict in Aceh made education hard for him especially if he spend most of his time in the forest doing whatever he was doing.

Perhaps some traditional and un-inform Muslim unable to distinguish between Jew or Zionism and brush of it with the same color or whatnot, but even in that lower level of awareness I met none of them thinking like "oh Hitler is my hero, gas chambering the Jew is a good idea".

However many of us do boycotting product that is known to support politically or through funding Israel occupation, and I don't think that vis a vis make them a fascist. Pink Floyd, Maroon5 and many other Band reject and boycotting to play in Israel to support the boycott, this is also the source of conflict between Roger Walter and Thom Yorke, does it meant Roger Walter is a fascist?

Most of Indonesian pre Independent movement are springs out from the organization called Union of Islam or Sarekat Islam, from this organization spring 3 type of movement, Muso and Semaun of Sarekat Islam formed a communist party, together with Tan Malaka that later on we know as PKI. Kartosuwiryo formed an Islamic movement such as DITII and Soekarno the son-in-law of the leader of the organization turned Indonesia to be a Republic. But none of them appeal with the fascist ideology, because it's not compatible or share no assosication and relation to what Islam's propose.

If you want another version of the perspective, you can see Sarin perspective. But this is my perspective, and I'm tired discussing about this stuff.

 

[innonimatu]

What was I saying years ago about this blanket fondness of multiculturalism without management of it? Didn't get the kind of cross-pollination you wished?

But there is no such thing as "islamo-fascism". Fascism was and is inevitably a modern ideology, islamism looks back even when attempting to be politic. This current brand of international political islamism seeks allies because it is weak, some elements may ally with nazis, but political islam is its own thing. And allying with bigger clowns doesn't get them much. They get far greater support from a certain "new left" that was anything but.

And don't put too much stock in symbols anyway. Its use is always performed according to the realpolitik of the moment. Consider this:

The United States is one of three nations that voted against a U.N. resolution condemning Nazism late last week.
The resolution called to combat the "glorification of Nazism, Neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance."
It was approved by the U.N. Human Rights Committee on Friday, with 131 countries voting in favor, 48 counties abstaining from voting and three countries voting against the condemnation: the U.S., Ukraine and Palau.

Russia submits this resolution every year, and the US votes against every year. Because the puppet regime it installed in Kiev is run by the neo-nazis.

All the countries in the EU, including Germany which still has its own laws against the glorification of nazism, abstain rather than vote for it. Because nazis in Ukraine was also their doing but it would look too bad to outright defend them.

This year, because evil Trump is going out, the vote against the resolution wasn't even covered in mainstream media.

Takeaways:
In national politics what is and isn't in the mainstream news depends on the political narrative management of the moment.
In international politics strategic interests have been trumping principles. It's not inevitable but it can easily happen when national politics is so shaped by propaganda that the actions in the international arena evade serious scrutiny.

 

[Angst]

Fascism's relationship with modernism is reasonably complicated. It very much relies as a return to the past and a rejection of modernism as a fundamental legitimacy, even if it embraces technology.

 

[aelf]

I don't think your assumption or fear is correct Aelf. I surrounded myself with Muslims and acquaintances with them from every kind of ethnicity and nations, never once I saw or met a Muslim that is fans with Nazi or Hitler. Except one very uneducated person whom I know when I working on my thesis regarding Aceh, I have to do interview with this one guy who was an ex-GAM fighter who announced himself as a fan of Hitler and Gandhi, and for few GAM fighter that I contacted and interview with it's only him that has a very eccentric view and I also felt that he has a bit racism on him for everyone outside of his tribe-as he called me also not by my name but by my tribe "Padang", perhaps he was just tired and messed up because the continuous fight and very uninformed because of the continuous conflict in Aceh made education hard for him especially if he spend most of his time in the forest doing whatever he was doing.

Perhaps some traditional and un-inform Muslim unable to distinguish between Jew or Zionism and brush of it with the same color or whatnot, but even in that lower level of awareness I met none of them thinking like "oh Hitler is my hero, gas chambering the Jew is a good idea".

However many of us do boycotting product that is known to support politically or through funding Israel occupation, and I don't think that vis a vis make them a fascist. Pink Floyd, Maroon5 and many other Band reject and boycotting to play in Israel to support the boycott, this is also the source of conflict between Roger Walter and Thom Yorke, does it meant Roger Walter is a fascist?

This isn't about boycotting Israel, though, which is not a problem at all. This is an issue of supporting or being indifferent towards Nazism. That's a fairly new discovery to me and I find it kind of shocking. While the left should be tolerant, the opposition towards fascist tendencies should never be forgotten. I wouldn't have started this thread if I wasn't shocked and wanted to hear people's perspectives here (discussing this in Singapore is useless). I'm not at all interested in the usual right-wing perspectives.

Perhaps, this could be a Singaporean and Malaysian Muslim issue and less Indonesian. I wonder what it's like in the Middle East. I also wonder if this is partly because the Islamic grassroots movement in Singapore and Malaysia had strongly anti-Communist origins - they were all along allied with authoritarian anti-workers governments that were only a shade less than fascist.

In any case, maybe we shouldn't be surprised that Western hypocrisy regarding Israel is contributing to pro-Nazi sentiments. That's why I asked if we should instead focus on that. Or on conservatism in general, but that's hard to extract from religiosity.

 

[r16]

as already noticed in the thread the Western anti-Semitism is a thing . lt uses and reinforces the already existing negative attitude in various brands of lslamic culture and yes there are millions who would like to cosplay the Nazis and the gas chambers . Luckily the bankruptcy of US , brought forward by Trump and his bunch of idiots who just love or would love to use word lslamofascist takes out quite a bit of the sting .

 

[H4run]

This isn't about boycotting Israel, though, which is not a problem at all. This is an issue of supporting or being indifferent towards Nazism. That's a fairly new discovery to me and I find it kind of shocking. While the left should be tolerant, the opposition towards fascist tendencies should never be forgotten. I wouldn't have started this thread if I wasn't shocked and wanted to hear people's perspectives here (discussing this in Singapore is useless). I'm not at all interested in the usual right-wing perspectives.

Perhaps, this could be a Singaporean and Malaysian Muslim issue and less Indonesian. I wonder what it's like in the Middle East. I also wonder if this is partly because the Islamic grassroots movement in Singapore and Malaysia had strongly anti-Communist origins - they were all along allied with authoritarian anti-workers governments that were only a shade less than fascist.

In any case, maybe we shouldn't be surprised that Western hypocrisy regarding Israel is contributing to pro-Nazi sentiments. That's why I asked if we should instead focus on that. Or on conservatism in general, but that's hard to extract from religiosity.

Well I gotta say that's sound really weird and something entirely unheard of, Nazism practice of what is known to be as asabiyah, it's a practice of tribal or race superiority which is a grave sin in Islamic concept. More-over it's a glorification of the Arian and putting most of Muslim, except some convert perhaps, under the lower part of the pyramid, hence it doesn't really make any sense like at all.

I know one musician in Indonesia who were incline with Prabowo back-then (the son in law of Soeharto) his name is Ahmad Dhani, perhaps you know him, singing a song from Queen (we will rock you) while wearing a Nazi like uniform, but I cannot use his case as another example beside that one GAM personnel I mentioned because Ahmad Dhani himself is one of few people who share part of Jewish ancestry in Indonesia, another one would be the infamous Yapto family.

And no no, here also the anti-communist movement among the nationalist and the Muslim also pretty rampant this is due to what happened in 1966-7, just to be fair, but after the reformation things are step by step getting better and much more open, but the red scare is still there. But if you are talking about ideology similarity you would see lots of common point between Islam with leftist, and no common point with fascism.

And anti-semitic is not really make sense in Islam, many of our Prophet that are mentioned in Quran are semitic and most of our semitic prophets are Jewish from the line of Jacob. So it's something that really cannot be hold to stand even under the very basic Islamic principle or value.

edit: not anti-left but anti-communist. Most people are after government intervention to the market, and spreading tax for education or health services, etc.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Islamic Fascists aren't a thing that I'm aware of in Europe. Given that Muslims are one of the main targets of modern Fascist movements in the West thats hardly surprising.
Islamofascism, the argument that Radical Islam is basically Fascist comes up ocasionally, usually argued from the right. It concentrates on similarities between Radical Islam and Fascism whilst ignoring the big differences.

 

[Sarin]

this is like saying feminists are all part of the minority that want to enforce a female supremacy

EDIT: Admittedly, the statement Sarin provided was kind of vague, but that makes it even less useful to generalize about Nazism and Islam.

Beside the fact that your parallel does not make sense, would you like me to provide some specific quotes, like a significant part of the Surah 4 of Qu'ran, or perhaps this oft-repeated passage found in several hadith:

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews. (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)

...that even found its way into Hamas' charter.
And some historical perspective, like Pact of Umar that established treatment of Jews as inferior, 1066 and 1465 pogroms in Granada and Fez respectively, the forced conversion under penalty of death in muslim Iberia, or perhaps something more recent like the expulsion, often violent, of Jews from most Arab countries in third quarter of 20th century...
Or maybe you'd like me to draw parallels between the power structure and adherence to ideology in Islam and fascist states, use of pervasive ideology to control most aspects of people's lives in order to control them, or perhaps use of ideologically driven organizations to enforce these norms by violent means, like Jamaat-e-Islami in South Asia, whose activities could be easily likened to those of SA.

 

[aelf]

What was I saying years ago about this blanket fondness of multiculturalism without management of it? Didn't get the kind of cross-pollination you wished?

This makes zero sense because the Malay-Muslim population is indigenous to this country and surrounding areas. If anything, the multiculturalism of the British Empire was what caused Chinese settlers to become dominant, and they pretty much behave like white Americans now - as though they have some kind of divine mandate to rule over 'lesser races'.

It shows that problem is not multiculturalism, as you often go on about, but the failure to pursue genuinely pluralist policies.

Well I gotta say that's sound really weird and something entirely unheard of, Nazism practice of what is known to be as asabiyah, it's a practice of tribal or race superiority which is a grave sin in Islamic concept. More-over it's a glorification of the Arian and putting most of Muslim, except some convert perhaps, under the lower part of the pyramid, hence it doesn't really make any sense like at all.

I know one musician in Indonesia who were incline with Prabowo back-then (the son in law of Soeharto) his name is Ahmad Dhani, perhaps you know him, singing a song from Queen (we will rock you) while wearing a Nazi like uniform, but I cannot use his case as another example beside that one GAM personnel I mentioned because Ahmad Dhani himself is one of few people who share part of Jewish ancestry in Indonesia, another one would be the infamous Yapto family.

And no no, here also the anti-communist movement among the nationalist and the Muslim also pretty rampant this is due to what happened in 1966-7, just to be fair, but after the reformation things are step by step getting better and much more open, but the red scare is still there. But if you are talking about ideology similarity you would see lots of common point between Islam with leftist, and no common point with fascism.

And anti-semitic is not really make sense in Islam, many of our Prophet that are mentioned in Quran are semitic and most of our semitic prophets are Jewish from the line of Jacob. So it's something that really cannot be hold to stand even under the very basic Islamic principle or value.

edit: not anti-left but anti-communist. Most people are after government intervention to the market, and spreading tax for education or health services, etc.

Well, historically many European Christians were anti-Semitic, which is expressly against Jesus' teachings. People are weird and stupid like that.

Perhaps the fascist tendencies already exist due to the authoritarian strain of government popular in this region. Add to that antipathy towards Israel and consumption of alt-right news (belief in an international conspiracy headed by George Soros is pretty common here), and I guess you get the set of views I'm talking about.

 

[H4run]

Sarin:Well there are also hadith that mentioned the day of Judgement would not happened until there are war between Muslims and Turks; there are also Hadith that mentioned the day of judgement would not happened until there are war between Muslims and Roman, or another Hadith that mentioned the day of judgement would not happened until there are lots of killings happened, which both who kill don't or get killed cannot address, understand or reasoned why it happened.

This is call the Hadith of Fitan, it's not used for ruling, but it's simply foretelling what would come in the future. And many bad things happened in the future.

like Pact of Umar that established treatment of Jews as inferior

Pact of Umar was not used to discredit the Jews or Christian, it's used to formulated how they can live side by side in medieval setting of multi-cultural community. The Non-Muslim were protected from the shariah ruling, and they have their own judicial system. They are allowed to consume and sell alcohol but obviously not to Muslim.

Well that's the reason why we are not really worried of multiculturalism and living in multi-plexity of ideology and world-view, we are used to it, as opposed to you and your crusader syndrome/mentality which made you phobia with multi-cultural global world, understandably as you are quite young and new to this experience, so keep on searching new argument in your favorite Islamophobes website, and do throw more propaganda and random claim and turned this discussion about current phenomena in Singapore into debate of exegesis and medieval history debate, as always!

1066

Oh yea, and to where those Jews was running from their "Muslim" oppressor? Maimonides like the rest of the Jews, he run to the Ayyubid and become the Sultanate Physician and live within another Islamic community. I wonder why is that.

1465

Oh that's near the inquisition time right? Where the evil fascist multicultural Muslim society changes to a more friendly democratic European monoculture?

Or maybe you'd like me to draw parallels between the power structure and adherence to ideology in Islam and fascist states, use of pervasive ideology to control most aspects of people's lives in order to control them, or perhaps use of ideologically driven organizations to enforce these norms by violent means, like Jamaat-e-Islami in South Asia, whose activities could be easily likened to those of SA.

Wow, go on, very interesting. You can spread the hate, you can do it.

 

[H4run]

This makes zero sense because the Malay-Muslim population is indigenous to this country and surrounding areas.

Make sense bro! The muslim immigrant in Singapore disturbing the Singaporean culture, multi-culturalism is bad, he is right all along!

Perhaps the fascist tendencies already exist due to the authoritarian strain of government popular in this region. Add to that antipathy towards Israel and consumption of alt-right news (belief in an international conspiracy headed by George Soros is pretty common here), and I guess you get the set of views I'm talking about.

Hard to imagine, unless it's a very un-inform youth who like drawing swastika sign, pentagram and other badass symbols just to look cool. Nothing really threatening to me Aelf, just people who don't know what they are doing or talking about.

 

[Sarin]

Pact of Umar was not used to discredit the Jews or Christian, it's used to formulated how they can live side by side in medieval setting of multi-cultural community. The Non-Muslim were protected from the shariah ruling, and they have their own judicial system. They are allowed to consume and sell alcohol but obviously not to Muslim. Well that's the reason why we are not really worried of multiculturalism and living in multi-plexity of ideology and world-view, we are used to it, as opposed to you and your crusader syndrome still phobia with multi-cultural global world, as understandably you are quite young and new to this, so keep on searching new founding in your favorite Islamophobes website to throw more propaganda and turned this modern phenomena in Singapore into exegesis and medieval history debate.

Oh that's near the inquisition time right? Where the evil fascist multicultural Muslim society changes to a more friendly European monoculture?

Wow, go on, very interesting. You can spread the hate, you can do it.

Pact of Umar established them...as second class citizens at best. Qu'ran has a lot to say about them as well, for example 98:7
“Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures. “ (Moshin Khan translation)

The incident in 1465 happened in Fez. A bit away from Inquisition. And it's not medieval Christianity that's point of discussion here. Funny that you've ignored much more recent example I've mentioned.

You've added nothing to the discussion but whattaboutism and insults here. Either discuss here in good faith or not at all.