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Realism Invictus

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by Walter Hawkwood, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. tchristensen

    tchristensen Emperor

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    Many moons ago I invented a new road system called the Sea Lane. It essentially gives ships that used them increased movement. I created a nifty "advanced" looking graphic that pulsed in the ocean, but certainly it could be used with more subtle graphics such as a buoy.

    I offer this idea to your mod. You could reduce all ship movements by 1 or 2 then allow this technology to supplement movement. I used several ships to "build" the sea lanes and my play testers really enjoyed the addition to the bland oceans of the game (at least 60% of the map)

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=372481

    Cheers!
     
  2. flitz

    flitz Warlord

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    your children are so lucky ! :D

    good to know that I am not the only one waiting so long during start-up. thanks for the info.
     
  3. ::Codehead::

    ::Codehead:: Chieftain

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    Hi, I noticed that 'No Vassals' is ticked in the custom scenario. Is that done for a reason? Like with the technology transfer. I did not find any information on that, so I am asking here.
     
  4. Walter Hawkwood

    Walter Hawkwood RI Court Painter

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    Have you tried using pitboss? It is very handy.

    In Custom Game, you can set any amount of civs you want.

    That may very well be true. I am under no illusion that I would be able to pull off a decent performance on Immortal myself. But I guess there are some masochistic people who like this level of difficulty - or, for instance, it could be good for people playing cooperative multiplayer.

    Interesting, I will look into it. Generally speaking, since all civs can sail ocean tiles within their own borders, strategically placing cities should be able to get you to places you otherwise wouldn't reach.

    Well, I think there is already plenty of uses for Prophets in RI. This mission would be pretty hard to code...

    Do you realize that for a full span of the game time, you'd need at least 300 leaders per civ? And that early on, they would change each turn?

    Having a single leader per civ the whole game is, in my opinion, a necessary level of abstraction for a game that spans 6000 years, just like wars early in game that last for 500 years or more. Of course, we could remove them altogether, but then we'd be removing a major gameplay element without providing anything in return. Changing leaders are a much better fit for a game that only covers 100-500 years.

    We may try to implement it in some of our historical scenarios where it would feel appropriate, but even that is currently a far away plan.

    What is, in your opinion, something more realistic and balanced than our current tech transfer system?

    It is intended, and it is dictated more by gameplay reasons - the higher latitudes really need that to be at least somewhat viable. But if you want a real life reason, small islands in extreme latitudes are usually home to a lot of seals and other large marine animals, while tropical islands as a rule don't have large animals.

    It actually shifted from playable to unplayable and back several times in last months. Right now I am trying to fix it and make it playable again, who knows for how long. :D

    Thanks for pointing out unplayable status of Hungary; actually, some other civs were also undeservedly unplayable. Fixed it as well.

    Most leaders from Crusades scenario are tied to Crusader Kingdoms instead of their respective civs. It's a technical measure that doesn't really affect anything since you can't choose leaders in scenarios anyway.

    The formula has to be simple, since it is used for all civs at every turn. I think it would be reasonably improved by a couple of simple changes:

    1) Tech transfer bonus only active if it is possible to trade with civ in question. Will eliminate many situations where a civ is too far away, beyond oceans or blocked by your aggressive neighbor.

    2) If you share a land border, you get a smaller bonus even without open borders (1/2 to 1/4 of the full bonus).

    3) When you are at war with a civ, you get a full tech transfer bonus from it. Trophies, defectors and other war-related discoveries were often the source of technological advances in warring states.

    Thanks for a lot of good advice! Hungary is certainly quite high on our list of potential playable civs.

    We are trying to make many game options toggleable, but I can't say that this one will appear in near future.

    As far as health is concerned, I already have a draft for reworking mid-late game health management to give it more flavor and more power to players to raise health in their cities (but at certain costs).

    Ah, I thought I fixed both. I tried once more with the WW2 infantry; this one may work better.

    Ah, I realize now that this is an unfortunate side effect of us switching off vassal states for both World Maps. We will have to once again consider if it is worth it...

    We don't have any specific interface tweaks for that. All stuff concerning interface is from vanilla Civ and BUG mod.

    I believe current civic balance is actually quite good. Republic, for instance, is an often misunderstood civic. It is true that it isn't useful for players most of the time, but if you only have a limited amount of cities (less than would put a strain on your economy), it is the best out of all early government civics.

    I don't think we'll be adding anything along these lines officially, but I think you should just modify your own versions, since you seem to have quite a good vision of what you need. If you need any advice on how to do so, I'll be glad to help.

    Yep, it does. And I don't think we'll ever get rid of all the stupid stuff AI does, but we try to keep the amount of stupidity down.

    That is simply not true. Even in vanilla civ, the amount of units your civ can support is based on your total population. If you go over that limit, you incur significant extra costs.

    One should remember that a population of a "city" in game terms is actually a population of a whole province governed by that city and can thus be quite large. I find it reasonable to assume that 1 unit of city population equals 100 000 people (maybe even more in later ages, since for a nation to have relatively modest 50 M people it'd have to have 500 combined population in industrial/modern era, and it's quite a lot even for huge maps).

    Now, if we consider the sizes of military units, early on it can't be much more than 1000 people per unit, while in later ages it is roughly 10 000 (a division). As we can see, a civ with total population of 10 has around 1 000 000 people, and thus can quite comfortably support an army of at least 25 000 people, or 25 early units, and with enough strain, could probably field twice that.

    Moreover, if we take examples from modern warfare, say, WW2 Operation Barbarossa. Germans deployed 146 divisions to Eastern Front (not counting their allies and all of their troops elsewhere), in three army groups (which, for game purposes, we could consider "stacks of doom"). So, as you see, WW2 on Eastern Front saw Germany deploy three doom stacks around 50 units each.

    So from the realism point of view, I don't find any discrepancies. Of course, there is still a purely gameplay issue of late game unit bloat that - quite realistically, but still annoyingly - puts you in command of hundreds of units (and throws hundreds of units against you in wars). So yes, we are pondering the ways of how we could deal with this without compromising realism (and if possible enhancing it).

    We will most likely not implement it the exact way you are putting it, but some of your ideas might indeed find way into our designs.

    The quality vs quantity approach is very hard to handle right in strategy games in general; I must say that even in some of the best and my favorite games out there this problem was not solved. I have some ideas along those lines, maybe not as clear cut as your suggestion, but time will see if we have the resources to implement them.

    You understand of course that when a unit of 1000-10000 men is "healing" in game terms, it is actually mostly getting fresh reinforcements to replace killed/incapacitated soldiers, and actual healing of the wounded accounts for only a fraction of this "healing" process. So the presence of field medics should of course speed up the "healing" to some degree, as more wounded return to service instead of dying/becoming permanently incapacitated, but by no means should be the main source of reinforcing a unit back to full strength.

    Migrations as a whole are a very underrepresented concept in Civ series. Earlier in history, whole peoples migrated from place to place, sometimes across whole continents. That is unfortunately not modeled by the game engine at all, and it is quite sad. We might one day find strength in ourselves to make a big component that would reflect that, but I can't see it happening anytime soon...

    No money at all. We do it in our free time and for free. We are strictly non-commercial and not-for-profit.

    Here you are guys, now you know who to blame. ;)

    They were buffed quite a lot in one of the recent revisions.

    Will check. I have a feeling you are right, but there might have been a reason behind that decision I already forgot.
    Fixed.

    Answered elsewhere. In short, we're trying to think of something.

    For all interested, I could also recommend this old, but brilliant book: http://monoskop.org/images/a/ab/Tainter_Joseph_The_Collapse_of_Complex_Societies.pdf

    Soon. :)

    It hasn't, but a smaller random map could probably be played quite far on a 32-bit system with very moderate risk of MAF. We can't address it directly, as it is a technical limitation of the game's exe file. We can only try to streamline the stuff we're using, and believe me, a lot of effort is going into that.

    Not in close future. As we begin merging Rev, it will likely occupy our attention for quite long.

    Portugal, along with many other civs, is currently a "minor civ", available only in scenarios and as a liberated colony. The reason why it's in BtS, but not in RI is that we are older than BtS, and by the time BtS came, the amount of content required by our civs was already too high to automatically include them all. Some BtS civs we made playable, but at least half are still not. Portugal is quite high on our list of potential new playable civs, but no promises here.

    Yes, it is very intentional. Gunpowder creates a revolution in siege weaponry, as it should. Before that, siege engines are disposable one-shot tools, as they were historically.

    Yes, the assets in SVN version are not packed (since that is where we work on them), so each time you launch, the game has to cache literally tens of thousands of files. Hence the long launch times. Our release versions have packed assets and launch instantly.

    Unfortunately AFAIK the mod that improves our AI includes some changes to pathfinding. While they offer a very significant performance increase, they assume that there are no routes on water. Therefore, our AI wouldn't realize your routes are there.

    Yeah, we found that the scenarios are much better balanced without vassalization. If you don't like this change, you can try turning it back on.
     
  5. ::Codehead::

    ::Codehead:: Chieftain

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    Ah, I imagined there is a reason when I saw it, thank you very much for the quick response and for all the effort you and the other guys have put into this great, great mod.
     
  6. flitz

    flitz Warlord

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    thanks for the hint

    I found the description that is available for ri on how to pack the assets. I will create some kind of release script that I can use every time I update the svn wc.
     
  7. aml666

    aml666 Chieftain

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    The "18 civ limit" on Custom Games for Islands is not a limit to the civs themselves, if you choose more than 18 civs, you get two giant continents instead of islands. Doesn't matter how big of a map you choose.
     
  8. tchristensen

    tchristensen Emperor

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    So we have been playing the mod relentlessly for the past couple of days and enjoy many aspects of it. There are some things that give us pause and I am just going to throw them out and see what you think. It may well have been covered before but its challenging to go through 250 pages in the forums to spot these observations, so I apologize up front.

    Civics in general seem more of a pain than any actual real benefit. I know you said that many civs could stay in early civics the entire game, I agree wholeheartedly.

    For example, Slavery seems to be highly crippled. As for an institution that has been around for 5000 years I see no reason why I would want to hinder my civilization with such. I'm curious as to the reasoning of making workers 25% less productive? On top of the revolts that occur almost every other turn, it seems hard to justify the civic for a +1 food? Perhaps granting hammers for mines or plantations and removing the worker penalty would help.

    Second, the civic Agrarianism has potential but if you can only build a pasture on a site of horses, cows, and sheep it seems a huge penalty since I can build a farm anywhere -- i can build five times more farm than the few selected spots for a pasture? Having the ability to build a pasture anywhere, even with a lower bonus would make the Civic somewhat more usable. Maybe there is something going on behind the scene I do not understand, but why would I choose the Civic when my numerous farms are penalized for the 1 cow pasture I could build?

    On a different note, on multiplayer games have you found that the slot one player (always the host unless you play pitboss) is unevenly picked on? Playing mostly multiplayer games and me always hosting the game I am relegated to slot one (assuming we don't use pitboss) and it seems like I am unfairly picked on in the game -- with barbarian invasions, bad events, and just plain vindictive AI. Perhaps its just my imagination. :crazyeye:

    Tried to play the Huge World Map but after 200 turns the game was already churning for minutes at the start of each turn -- I am running a 8 gig 64 bit I7 and was surprised by this degradation of performance so early on. Is that normal?

    And finally I find cannon in the game crippled as well. Certainly if I field 20 cannons and park it around a city firing relentlessly, I should be able to do more than 20% damage to the garrisoned army? My reference was in relation to bombards as I have yet to get to stronger units, but it just seems to be silly that my bombardments would be limited to 20% damage?

    Just my observations so far -- I love the flavor of all the civs. Oh by the way, my players are yearning for North American Indian civs to play. Just had to add that! :D
     
  9. pioswa

    pioswa Chieftain

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    I really like point 1. and 2. but point 3. not so much. I will try to explain in example, why i think it isn't good mechanism: Early renaissance era. One player is able to build ocean sailing ships but is still unable to build ocean sailing troop transport. He discovers another player on faraway continent. That player instantly declares war and have a benefit of full tech transfer for almost no consequences.

    Players get tech bonus for conquering cities, so in some way it reflect adapting technology through war. Maybe add more situation when player receive tech bonus for example when one of your unit kills enemy unit you get few (10 or 15) research points in a technology known by your enemy. When your unit is pillaging, apart from gold, you get few research points (number of points is determined by era).
     
  10. civman110

    civman110 Immortal

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    Lol.

    That's true.

    I still like the new direction you're taking things in. It's a very clever idea.

    Nice! One step ahead as always ;).

    ---

    Have you ever considered adding an option that would prevent certain civs from founding religions that have no, or very little historical basis in that country? For example, European civs can't found eastern religions, but they can found Solar Cult, Christianity, Judaism. Spain could also found Islam. Scandinavia can't found Judaism.

    Undoubtedly, it would leave some civs, like the Mayans and Aztecs with only being able to found 1 religion (Solar Cult), but the vast majority of civs would be able to found at least 3 religions. It would also prevent some civs from founding a ridiculous amount of random religions. It could add an interesting element to world maps, so when you finally explore eastern Asia people follow different religions.
     
  11. Jwitti

    Jwitti Judas Maccabeus

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    Maybe more "Unique religions" like what middle-eastern and Mediterranean civs have for solar cult? I'm drawing a blank on what any of them would be atm, but that's because my meager historical knowledge is kinda west-centric... I know, shame on me.... :D anyway, I'm sure there's enough various religious sub-groups in Asia and America to fill them in..
     
  12. civman110

    civman110 Immortal

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    I believe in RI Solar Cult is meant to represent Aztec/Mayan/Incan solar religions, just judging from the design of the temples... however, many parts of the world had some form of solar cult at one point. For example, the Carthaginians worshipped Phoenician solar gods, as well as many other places along the Mediterranean, Egypt had Atenism etc. Mostly every part of the world at one point had solar gods, or some components of a solar belief system. I'm not sure on the specific solar religions the middle-east had, but I do know that they had them. Parts of the ME worshipped the Phoenician gods in Syria and Hittie. The only other type of pagan religion that was more common than solar worship was sex/fertility worship. Both were very common and often these solar/sex/fertility religions from different regions were all mixed together and people worshipped a mixture of gods originating from different cultures.
     
  13. tchristensen

    tchristensen Emperor

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    I am curious as to the strategy for the use of the Republic civic? The technology required to obtain it comes so late that the player will have no doubt more than 6 cities? It carries among other determinants with a +35% increase to the cost of city maintenance -- not a savings but a penalty!?! All of this for +1 happiness? Reading up on the Senate it is an okay building but is it worth losing that much gold a turn?
     
  14. tchristensen

    tchristensen Emperor

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    Always wondered what the Favored civic or religion really does for a civilization? So if I am playing the Japanese and I gain Buddhism how is that better than let's say Christianity for that culture?
     
  15. tdfriese

    tdfriese Chieftain

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    I love the idea of a small tech bonus coming from shared borders, even if not open. I also dislike the idea of a big bonus coming from just being at war with someone, though I would say the current system of getting a tech bonus when conquering a city seems underpowered.

    Interesting to hear your thoughts about civics, and I have to say it's a bit more complicated than you portray. Take an early-game city with one cow and a river. The cow under pastoral nomadism provides something like 6 :food: and then if you cottage 3-4 riverside grasslands or plains you can grow to size 5 or so and be an early-game economic powerhouse. Early farms are so weak that you would need 2 or 3 of them to support a city of the same size and even then you're missing out on so much commerce. Check out my recent story to see pastoral nomadism lasting well into the midgame.

    The issue with early farms is a big part of the reason to run slavery. Slave farms outproduce early regular farms, and slave markets provide extra gold. The revolts are a bit tedious to micromanage, but they're actually nice - free experience!

    It is true that there are a lot of uses for prophets, but the option to spread a religion to a few cities seems very cool and game-changing, especially when you don't have open borders.

    Agreed. I don't often run republic (just like in the real world it wasn't that common in the classical era), but when I do run it I love it.

    See above. Happiness is probably the most precious 'resource' in the game, and this is one of the best ways to get it early game. It's especially good for civs that by luck have good health (from resources, forests, traits, etc.) but not much happiness and/or civs with lots of :gp: points. And that increase to city maintenance you mention can be more than recuperated from another very productive citizen (or specialist!).
     
  16. tchristensen

    tchristensen Emperor

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    I have a passion for playing civilizations that used the oceans to build massive empires. One of the problems with Civilization IV is coastal cities and island cities are gutted without any appreciable ways of creating hammers to make anything. Have you ever thought of adding a civic such as Agrarianism but for the sea? I was thinking of one called "Maritime Powers" that would allow the construction of a specialized harbor that's benefit was +1 hammers to all coastal zones.
     
  17. tchristensen

    tchristensen Emperor

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    The barbarians are simply fantastic. I do not play on Raging on the Invictus mod. Up until I started playing RI it was simply the standard option but you have made these buggers so outright mean, that I find it a bit more enjoyable on normal.

    Still fighting through economic issues in the game. Just seems like I am always running at 20% which doesn't work.
     
  18. sami_snow

    sami_snow Warlord

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    I play RI on Immortal. It is EXTREMELY difficult, but you can win, I promise. Some maps/starts may be unwinnable

    You will need to think very carefully about diplomacy and balance-of-power politics. If a civ starts running away ahead of you, you will not be able to catch up due to the bonuses

    that's fine. I recommend running your tech bar as low as possible, maximizing the amount of open borders bonus you are getting (i.e., it is often a better idea to lag behind a bit in tech and build up a gold reserve, than to spend money to race to techs when you can get them a LOT cheaper a little bit later.), and generating as much of your beakers as you can with specialist scientists (also, build as many story circles as you can, those are a very important building). You won't be running you economy slider in quite the same way that you do in vanilla BTS
     
  19. PKSRoman

    PKSRoman Chieftain

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    you should add this to RI: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=439060

    thanks these options like double agent and bigger promotion spy tree make game more.. realistic

    and my little dream its economic victory - computer check how many gold u gain via trade routes. if u have more then world 50% gold global trade, you win. or if u have more then 50% of world`s hammers per turn..? ( it mean all civ`s count togheter have less gold via trade then you)

    or or.. scientific victory, first who reach "future tech 1" win..?
     
  20. tchristensen

    tchristensen Emperor

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    I am curious when you play at this level how big a world, how many opponents, and do you play from a single save? When I say a single save I mean you play through and do not go back to an earlier save if you lose battles or AI does something unpredictable.

    Cheers!
     

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