Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[MathNerd]

Choosing slaves is easy: Anyone who has been convicted of a crime and imprisoned is a candidate for slave labor should the need arise.

Personally, I think those who have chosen to violate the laws and customs of our lands, or who have violated the rights of others to live a free and happy life have given up their own right to live as they please. Of course, not everyone who is condemned to imprisonment will die as a slave. Some may serve their sentences and be released; others may be put to labor, but survive the ordeal.

I'm not sure how many players are still active here, but perhaps this should be put to a vote?

See, there you go on the government is special idea. It should not be the government deciding who gets to live and who gets to die.

 

[ilduce349]

As I just found out by aysee, I am in charge of deciding what techs to research (sorry if we have already covered this, I am not intent of reading the 16 pages of info I have yet to cover):
1. Code of Laws
2. Construction
3. Currency
4. Philosophy

I am not sure if we have the tech requirements for the techs stated above, but if we don't beeline in that order. Thoughts?

 

[ilduce349]

Double post

 

[Aysee]

On slavery: Well, you have to remember: during that time period, slavery was common place, and was actually considered more humane. As slaves were generally criminals and prisoners of war, they would have faced execution otherwise; now, instead, they get to work for the good of the country (this works in civ terms, too: generally, the unhappy populance is the one whipped first).
That's my take on it, there's also the more loopy explanation by Orson Scott Card that slavery was developed as a substitute for human sacrifice, but...

I nominate this slavery idea, for a vote!

 

[Lighthearter]

On slavery: Well, you have to remember: during that time period, slavery was common place, and was actually considered more humane. As slaves were generally criminals and prisoners of war, they would have faced execution otherwise; now, instead, they get to work for the good of the country (this works in civ terms, too: generally, the unhappy populance is the one whipped first).
That's my take on it, there's also the more loopy explanation by Orson Scott Card that slavery was developed as a substitute for human sacrifice, but...

I nominate this idea, for a vote!

Which one, slavery or human sacrifice?

Not in MY AAR.

- Lighthearter

 

[Aysee]

Which one?

I'm talking about slavery, as we're not Montezuma

EDIT: But I'll admit, my statement could have been better worded..

 

[Ravus_Sol]

The Cull Administration Years - Green Philosophers

The Story Years

Spoiler :

After Ayra’s initial story about a riot in england the President Elect, Cull, replied with the comment;

I proclaim all those of rioters to be banished to Ireland, banished upon small rafts in which none have ever came back. Gone these rioters will go to the accursed land of Ireland.

Lighthearter siezed on this as a warning not to go overboard in stories, he controlled full rights to extrapolate from stories some in-game consequences.

-

Thus in post 757# Lighthearter showed a new image.

Spoiler Minority Uprising :

The Rioters had taken up arms and were marching in the mainland around London in protest!

Luckily Lighthearter had upgraded our warrior into a prototype archer as well.

-

This however started a wave of story posts that while helping influence the backstory of our nation also confused some of our more practical minded politicians. The main confusion was through there being magic and technologies unknown in these stories. The monks were proclaimed magical and the parties were shown to be in direct conflict.

The stories show the discontent from such a close election where both sides believed they deserved to win. The stories officially ended when the rioters and barbarian supporters were killed and the discontents rounded up and sent to Ireland.

EDIT: It seems i was wrong and there was also some side stories about indian politics

Eventually Ayra set up a seperate thread to host these stories. You can still find it in the Stories and Tales forum. Or on pages 40 onward.

My view on a summery of events: Due to a miscilanious event (attack at opposition meeting by unknown people) the opposition has flared up. It was a close race with some resentment so it was understandable. In response Cull banished all law breakers to Ireland to use as a prison colony. This cased some resentment and flared things up even more into near civil war. Only the fact that we have no real army stopped us. Also some of the law-breakers resisted attacking either side. Some found some barbarians to help out. They were luckily killed before damage could be done.

The Original Plan: “REX”

Spoiler :

The original plans were laid out during the election period. The main ideas were to REX, which translates as Rapid Expansion. London would become a settler pump and deploy as many cities as possible while pumping out the occasional worker or archer to help support the growing empire.

It was easily decided between the two peaceful parties to bee-line alphabet and see how much trading they could get while they had a monopoly on it.

It was also planned to try to trade some of the lesser religious techs so that the fture Great Prophet from London could found a religion.

Military was mainly focused on just enough archers to defend the cities or stop barbarians. The Foreign policy was to continue to perform aggresive land grabs so as to keep european lands out of Roman Hands.

Issues: Russia & Ireland

Spoiler :

Russia:
Czar Peter watched our last elections closely, and has inquired about them. It is possible that he is contemplating the establishment of representative government - how do we proceed in this situation?

Ireland:
The recent deportation of rioters to Ireland raised a thorny issue for the United Kingdom. Should we allow them to establish a settlement under British rule(ala RL Australia) or should we leave them to the mercies of nature. Be warned, the Romans or the Vikings may take them under their wing if we don't, but they could cause trouble for us if we do.

-

The Russian question was not contemplated much at this time... perhaps it was the first warning signs from lighthearter of the impending Russian move. Initially the Ireland city was to be English with merely a prison colony mentality, but such a city would need ruling. However eventually a consensus was reached. The Irish people would be granted freedom and autonomy while the peoples that would have looked over the prisoners would instead head to scotland to found a true english city.

This decision was mainly done as middleground due to the arguements about scotland and the riots that were still ongoing.

Spoiler Original Irish Colony :

The initial shot of the colony when it was british is shown in post 804#

Spoiler Khan of Ireland :

The Irish declared themselves the Mongols in post 914#

Spoiler New Irish Captial :

The Conquerer Question

Spoiler :

In Post 900 Conquerer states;
In the future when elections comes my vote goes to whatever coalition the Royal Nationalist's party is in.

Does this still count as in effect? Especially as the Nationalist party is now the imperial party...

Cull Admininstration - Part 1

Spoiler :

Found in post 984#

Note: Although not mentioned at the time both the Mogolian Irish and the Russians are running Slavery!

The Scotish settler made their way north, they needed to be shown where to settle.

Writing was discovered but Cull maintained a srtong closed borders policy so that Rome was not tempted to sneak a city into Spain (Iberia)

It was noticed that Rome was allready starting to develop a large army...

Issues: The Iberia Question

Spoiler :

Iberia -
Our colonists wish to make a settlement in Spain or Portugal and expand our domination over the resources of Western Europe - should we fund their expedition? It may yet end in disaster . . . .

-

This question and the ponderings of where to place the cities in Iberia, along with how many, dominated the political minds of the next intermission.

-

Note: It was here, around post 1000# that Resident UK appeared and siezed control of the old Martial Nationalist party and renamed it the Imperial Party founding the first major right-wing extremist.

Cull Administration - Part 2

Spoiler :

See Post 1050#

Turn 79 - 900BC
The Indians attempt to get open borders but Cull’s foriegn policy means he has to send them home without.

Spoiler The Scottish City of Liverpool :

The Scottish city of Liverpool is founded with the plan of it becoming a future army training city.

Turn 82 - 825BC
The Romans also try to obtain open border, they to are also turned away, although this time the politicans are less polite.

Turn 83 - 800BC

Spoiler London and the New Settler :

Another settler is outfitted and asks where to go. It is time for a choice on spain. Also the city of London desires to build the Great Lighthouse to the shock of the Politicians

-

Spoiler The Known world :

The Discussion: Last Choices

Spoiler :

It was easily noticed that Rome seemed to be happy with expanding eastward and leaving france and spain in english hands. This however, for better or worse, started to create a clear borderline in germancy, half Roman - half English.

Some politicians were tempted to get Iron Working and hope that England had Iron while the rest wished to make a mad expansion dash towards Iberia. In this regard they argued over whether to settle in the east to permenantly block of Rome. Or to settle in the West Coast via boat, to immediantly claim the imortant resources.

The now old Pacifism Defensive military verses Retalitory Agressive Military discussion flared up again. The main point was centered around the power of the Roman Pratorian and what Englands best chance of defence would be. In the end it was shown that technically axemen would be better at dealing with Prat’s one versus one. However as archers were less then half the cost of Pratorians we could merely out-produce our potential adversary...

West India Man can be shown to be the one who helped cement the city choices with his helpful map in post 1078#

Cull Administration - Part 3

Spoiler :

See Post 1086#

Turn 90 - 625BC

Spoiler Birmingham :

The First Iberian colony was founded on the northwestern coast. It instantly started training some protection for itself.

Spoiler City Planning for Birmingham :

Turn 95 - 500BC

Spoiler Hannibal the Patient :

The Carthaginians are met and Hannibal, their leader greets us cautiously.

Turn 99 - 400BC

Spoiler Germania under Roman Occupation :

The Romans completly cut us of in Germany. While Norwich is founded as the final city in Iberia/spain. Unfortunatly a crisis looms as a barbarian horde slowly began to approach the city.

Spoiler Norwich and the Threatening Barbarian :

Turn 100 - 375BC

Spoiler Ravus Sol the Great Prophet and the growing Buddist Imperialism :

In some strange missionary expansion, Buddism spreads everywhere. Liverpool gains a influx of these worshipers and the two leaders Julius and Hannibal are converted. For now england remains as it is but there is increasing social preasure to bow to the Buddist religion and show our support.

In Response a Great Prophet called Ravus Sol begins to preach to the masses against supporting this foriegn religion.

-

Overview of the Empire

Spoiler The British Isles :

Spoiler Gaul :

Spoiler Iberia :

Spoiler The Known World :

-

Norwich gets renamed Cull-Norwich following the ex-presidential tradition.

The Third Election: “Imperial Events”

Spoiler :

During this election period the Green Philosophers Coalition (GPC) stay farely strong and easy to work with each other. However like the President before him Cull decides he needs a break from a position of power. After a few remarks from Ravus, Cull decides to join the Monks as a party of ex-presidents and enjoy the quiet life.

While the GPC goes through a relitivly simple transition. The Coalition of the Future (CoF) goes through major changes. Ayra again puts his name forward as candidate to be elected. He quickly starts to point out what he views as mistakes from the previous administration. The newly named Imperialistic Party quickly joins ranks with the Modernizational party. However the Liberal Marxists start to flex their individual party muscles and refuse to initially re-join the CoF.

This breaking of the initial Second Coalition shows the growing individual natures of the parties within the CoF. The Liberal Marxists under Mechaerik start to become more radical.

-

It is in post 1110# that the first party symbol is shown.

In this election people were much more cautios with their votes and their promises of party alliances. The leaders were now more cautious and experianced in these matters.

Mathnerd assumed control of the Educated party and renamed it the Technocultural party of england. With similer views of the educated with a pro-culture and religion slant.

-

Yet another radical move in a election appeared when Ayra wished to oust the Consortium from the Coalition of the Future. Aparantly somewhere behind the scenes there had been a choice between the Consortium and the Liberal Marxists. Thus Ayra wished to oust the Consortium so that the old allies could both be beside each other once more.

Ilduce, the new leader of the Consortium was obviously annoyed at this move.

A NEW RULE was eventually inserted that stated as long as 2/3 of the Coalition leaders wished to oust a party then it could be done. It was also noted in the future that all members of a coalition could leave and found a new coalition with a similer name and refuse re-entry to any parties they have problems with.

-

In the last half of the election a Crisis appeared in the form of the sudden Russian Power. A Russian Boat had attacked our own and taken English citizens as hostages. Once again Lighthearter tested the leaders of the realm. (Post 1202#)

Ayra's Response (Post 1207#)
Ravus Sol's Response (Post 1209#)

This event and it's consequences will be examined more under the next administration

-

The Talk on this event quickly took over the end of the election period.

As the election wore on it became apparant that the lurker voters in the GPC were proving hard to find. Mecharik stepped down from leading the Marxists as he grew tired of the responsibility and the fast moving pace here. He also believed the party needed a politician leader not a philosophical leader. Aysee was gifted command and Mecharik drifted back into the shadows. In one of the final vote casts of the election Lighthearter cast his two votes for the lesser Stonehenge Monks and the Consortium. There was once again enough unaligned votes to swing the election around. However this time those votes were split between two unaligned parties.

With a new less exremist leader the CoF were able to secretly reopen negotiations with the Consortium to ask them back into the coalition. While publicly the coalitions courted the Stonehenge monks. Ayra managed to tempt the Consortium back just after Ravus pointed out their voting power.

It was during this attempt at courting that many parties changed their descriptions to either support or not care about religion. Now (Page 94) only a few parties still keep their strict athiesm.

-

The Election was now technically over. The CoF now had a clear majority and only an army of lurkers would have swung things around. It was decided by all that the election would end early, as many were getting itchy to deal with the crisis event. Later it was agreed this probably should have had more then casual agreement. Thus another RULE was amended and now the election could only end early if the losing coalition conceeded defeat. However this would weaken their oppositional power.

Cull’s Administration officially ended in post 1404#

Mathnerd was apointed opposition leader, one who followed in Ayra’s footsteps and went on the attack straight away.

-

Ayra’s Administration ended up looking like;

• President: arya126
• Vice-President: Aysee
• Secretary of State(Foreign Minister): Nukeknockout
• Military Minister: resident_uk
• Interior Minister: mechaerik
• Financial Minister: ilduce349

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Unlurk

Just as an added comment to the slavery question:

Both the Irish Mongols and the Russians support slavery and run it themselves. Considering one is a potential ally and one is a potential enemy that should stir the pot a little.

Also while slavery can help some of the cities... it can also, probably, be transfered directly into units. Lighthearter has done this before. Of course Slavery WILL raise the opposition meter. There is no two ways about it. Slavery creates a repressed minority. While with a death penelty can be swift and cheap and a prison colony just needs a one way fare cost; Slavery needs guards and upkeep and the slaves stick around. They become a lower class that revolutionairies can preach to and make false-promises.

Here is a technical question though. Will the civic of slavery merely cause a one time raise in the opposition meter. Or will we count each time the whip is used as a cause to raise the opposition...

-

Also the last little part of my notes are up. I think i got everything, biased though it may be, If Lighthearter or Cull spots anything wrong from their own administrations just say and it can be edited.

This seems to be winding down... which considing Cull's Administration ended in post 1404... that means we've had over 400 posts of the event and the planning of the nation. So i guess everyone is just in lurker mode till Ayra gets back or Aysee assumeds command.

Question: Do the CoF have a mid-way point in their term that they would like to have as a halfway point? Otherwise Lighthearter will probably just pick wherever seems appropriate.

oh that reminds me.

-

Relurks

 

[Whosit]

Here is a technical question though. Will the civic of slavery merely cause a one time raise in the opposition meter. Or will we count each time the whip is used as a cause to raise the opposition...

If the Opposition Meter rises every time that something is whipped, then the Opposition Meter is seriously broken. Mechanically, the Slavery Civic is best used often, so it probably wouldn't take more than a couple of turns to reach "murderous" if I used Slavery as often as a normal player uses it. A one-time increase so long as we remain in Slavery seems fair, though, as long as the Opposition continues to oppose the civic.

Again, though, if you're really trying to role-play, we're still living in an era long before modern ideas of humanitarian treatment were developed . . . .

 

[Ravus_Sol]

If the Opposition Meter rises every time that something is whipped, then the Opposition Meter is seriously broken. Mechanically, the Slavery Civic is best used often, so it probably wouldn't take more than a couple of turns to reach "murderous" if I used Slavery as often as a normal player uses it. A one-time increase so long as we remain in Slavery seems fair, though, as long as the Opposition continues to oppose the civic.

Again, though, if you're really trying to role-play, we're still living in an era long before modern ideas of humanitarian treatment were developed . . . .

Unlurks

Yeah i tried that arguement AGES ago when myself and cull were discusing the value of life and wether you could consider rival civilizations as equal human beings.

While i went of all fancy on the fluid nature of reconising man from beast from god, Cull had a pretty simple and direct resposne; We are ethical. While the many people in this stoneage (bronze age now?) society may not be ethically evolved, for the sake of the game we are assuming that us, the immortal politicians, are ethically developed.

Like you said there is not any direct ways of translating game mechanics into real life situations (all the civs speak the same language when they talk to us ) And we don't want to have to make arguements from the mindset of bronzeage people. It wouldn't be much fun or entertaining. So lets just assume that while we could convince the masses that this idea is okay the other politicians arn't going to fall for it as they too understand humanitarian treatment.

It's a pretty blured line between role-play and in-game here.

Either way i've done my books and i'm going back to lurking. I do agree it should only be a one time increase, but i wanted proper confirmation from Lighthearter.

Lurks

 

[MathNerd]

As I just found out by aysee, I am in charge of deciding what techs to research (sorry if we have already covered this, I am not intent of reading the 16 pages of info I have yet to cover):
1. Code of Laws
2. Construction
3. Currency
4. Philosophy

I am not sure if we have the tech requirements for the techs stated above, but if we don't beeline in that order. Thoughts?

Whosit and I are currently trying to come to a negotiation about this.

EDIT: It's perfectly fair for the OSR to climb every time you whip. Whipping kind of lends itself to the definition of the OSR!!! Angering the people WILL up the OSR. However, that's a chance you have to take. As a matter of fact, I'm going to up this another level. The opposition demands that slavery not be adopted.

 

[W|M]

We are more abolitionist than this guy:

 

[Aysee]

ahem...actually, Lincoln never started the Civil War due to slavery, and started out not wanting to ban it.

 

[W|M]

well, more abolitionist than he is portrayed to be then...

 

[Aysee]

You should have said more abolitionist than him:

or him

or even him

all who are much more than Lincoln.

 

[MathNerd]

Yeah, Aysee is right. And change your status to "Waiting for Arya"!

 

[Aysee]

Nah, Waiting for Godot has more connotations.

Plus, if I did that, non-Realpolitikers would think I was an Inheiritance freak...

@WIM: You can't call yourself abolitionist since we haven't adopted slavery yet.

 

[MathNerd]

Plus, if I did that, non-Realpolitikers would think I was an Inheiritance freak...

Yeah, I never thought of that.

 

[W|M]

I thought we had already implemented slavery? Anyway, we'll become abolitionists as soon as it's adopted.

 

[MathNerd]

If we'd already adopted slavery, I'd be demanding that it be changed.